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Posted: 3/8/2003 12:53:14 PM EDT
| Hello friends, this is not the only gun-based-forum home that I visit frequently and I have noticed that there is always some person with a "pre-determined-agenda" about the .223 caliber and it's "inability to knock down an enemy." I have also noticed that most of these people are fans of the 7.62 round, whether it's out of an ak or the .308. This seems to be a never-ending dispute between ar fans and fans of the AK/ G3/ FAL. I personally believe every particular round serves it's own purpose. I don't believe in that "do-all" round. I think that people who think that are limiting themselves. I just wish that the 7.62 fans would quit criticising the .223 round and get over their personal issue with the military round. |
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Quoted: Hello friends, this not the only gun-based-forum home that I visit frequently and I have noticed that there is always some person with a "pre-determined-agenda" about the .223 caliber and it's "inability to knock down an enemy." I have also noticed that most of these people are fans of the 7.62 round, whether it's out of an ak or the .308. This seems to be a never-ending dispute between ar fans and fans of the AK/ G3/ FAL. I personally believe every particular round server it's own purpose. I don't believe in that "do-all" round. I think that people who think that are limiting themselves. I just wish that the 7.62 fans would quit criticising the .223 round and get over their personal issue with the military round. WR I have both ARs and FALs they both do their respective jobs well. That is why I have them all. I agree with you. There is no "DO-ALL" round, the 7.62x51mm has it's merits as well as drawbacks as does the 5.56mm. Use what works for you. For me it is both. Scott |
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Well, in my many years of service, I can tell you that I have seen what both rounds can do, what both rifles are capable of, and so forth. I have carried and fired both the M-16/M-4, the AK-47/74 in combat. My preference? The M-4 hands down. The 5.56 NATO round has far superior terminal ballistics, penetration, range, and accuracy than the standard 7.62 X 39 round (and the 5.45mm round). The AK is, of course, a very reliable rifle and is an outstanding weapon. But all in all, taking ALL factors of the a rifle, its features, and the ammo it fires... If given the choice, I will take an M-4 into any environment over any other rifle I have ever used. Most people who will flame this post of mine, will be speaking from personal preferece based on hunting and sport shooting or what they have read or heard from other sources. Frankly and with all due respect, until you have truely put a weapon system to the test of the most extreme conditions AND had your life depend on it, then you are not making a fully informed statement. |
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I find the entire "stopping power" debate humorous. The human species is the most unpredictable living target you can shoot. We can study ammo all we want and debate calibers all forever. Physical and mental state, and the presence of chemical substances all play a part in the target's reaction. The only thing that guarantees true "stopping" power is hits that destroy vital parts of the body. At 200+ yards, human tissue is going to have a hard time telling the difference between a .30 caliber hole and .22 caliber hole, unless it hits something essential to function or consciousness. Shoot, and shoot accurately, until the threat goes away. |
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The one thing that really chaps my hide about AR-15's is my lack of a room full of them. I feel well armed with an AR-15 when it comes to self protection. Mind you a 30 cal 168gr Nosler Balistic tip from an AR-10 would sting a little bit. My goto rifle in time of crisis will be an AR. My first bet is most that clamor about the larger caliber have been brought up that way, bigger is better. If a good friend of mine wishs to go armed with a bigger round, than he is still welcome. Only a few silly thoughts Brad |
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I'm not familiar with anyone who'll sit there while I drill .223 dia holes in their body. If you look at military small arms engagement ranges overall you end up with everything from zero to... well quite a bit. Where does the average engagement range fall? What's an average long? Average close? Does .223 do these things? Does 308 do it? As the phrase goes, dead is dead. |
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Spiffy3, There you go again using reasoning, instead of blind guessing. Bottom line is that any High power rifle round is capable of punching right threw a human. The difference is in the performance of the bullet once it comes into contact with flesh. The current US 5.56 round is made to penetrate a degree of armament, then yaw and separate to create two cavities. If the 5.56 bullet was designed to be like the Russian 5.45 round with a hollow cavity tip, then you loose the armor penetration properties of the round, but the round would yaw in less that 3" of entering flesh, and do a hell of a lot more damage to un-vested recipient By changing the bullet design for the type of engagement that the solder will encounter, any round, from the 5.56 to the 7.62 round be greatly enhanced, and such was the case with the use of Hollow tip bullets use on un-armored civilians. Dano |
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Quoted: Hey Guys, Shouldnt the "Sniper incident" in the Virginia/DC/ Maryland Area Last October to November settle any Misgivings about the AR and .223 ? I would think so. While not taking a side in this arguement (I vote for 8mm Mauser, your punny .223 is not a match [;D]) I would say the DC shootings could be argued either way. After all, they did hit a young kid in the back tearing up several internal organs and he is now fine. I would take an AK before and AR, BUT that being said, it is my opinion, and that the AR must have something going for it or it wouldn't have lasted this long. most calibers have their place. |
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Now tell me why I'm not surprised Ober picked the 8mm, unfortuneately, I AGREE! Awsome round! I guess I'm a freak, I LIKE EM ALL! If I had to choose between the .556 and .762X39, it would be the .556 just because I can carry more and it reaches out better. It's not the size that counts. It's where you put it. |
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Quoted: Now tell me why I'm not surprised Ober picked the 8mm, It's not the size that counts. It's where you put it. This can be taken several ways. [;)] But in the repect you mean it, your correct. SK1911, I think they will be so eager to play French Army that you won't have much of a chance to give a report, but good luck and shoot straight if one of them decides to get brave. |
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All you guys are wusses! Talkin' about shooting people with these puny little girly calibers. Ya'll talking about stopping people, AR this, AK that. Get a real firearm! Lets face it, if you are really serious about stopping someone, or something, you get behind the MA-DUECE let let rip 740 grains of FMJ baby. That makes big holes and not matter how un[redictable a towel-head on hashish may be, 740 grains of american lovin' is too much for any of them to handle. Anyway, just kidding. I'll take my AR over anything else for general purpose stuff. Especially if I am having to hump it for any distance. If I don't have to hike, then I would like the security of my HK91. It makes big holes & if I miss the bastards up close, they will get a 3rd degree burn fromt he muzzle blast:) |
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I just wanted to throw in my experience today. Although this may not relate to real life human hostile encounter it gave me respect for this .223 bullet that to me looked a little under-whelming. I was shooting my new ar today for the first time and found a steel plate about .25"-.50" thick (not sure) and decide it would be a good indicator of where I hit both audibly and visually. After firing my first few shots (ever) and then walking to the plate with a smile on my face, I got a chill when I saw that the rounds I had fired passed completly through the plate. The whole .22 impression I had about the size of the .223 disappeared in an instant. This may be a "Duh" comment for most of you and may have very little to do with the .308 but to me it was obvious that my AR had all the power I would ever need, even from the little bullet with "no stopping power". It would stop me in a hearbeat. Garrett |
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