AR Sponsor
Posted: 1/31/2003 8:00:29 AM EDT
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I've been working w/ Gander Mountain in WI for more than THREE weeks to do a person-to-person sale of an AR from out-of-state. They have bungled just about every possible thing they could bungle, so much so that they almost cost me the deal altogether (my seller actually pulled out of the deal due to the incessant delays and misinformation given to his FFL by Gander Mountain, due SOLELY to the fact that the rifle is a pre-ban AR). FWIW, I STRONGLY recommend AGAINST using Gander Mountain for any FFL transfer whatsoever. They absolutely suck. But more to the point: I'm finally going to pick it up today. Of course, just as I'm getting ready to leave, Gander Mountain calls me again to say there might be another delay, this time up to three days. When I pick up the rifle, even though I'm not buying it from Gander Mountain, they are going to do a background check on me to ensure I can have the weapon. They also say that, because this is a "military rifle" (their words), the ATF will probably delay the release of the weapon to me. What's the word on this? If I'm not buying the rifle FROM them, but instead THROUGH them, are they required to perform a background check on me? If I'd used my "guy next door" FFL (and GOD DO I WISH I HAD!), would he be required to do a background check on me before releasing the weapon. I think it's called a Form 4473. I'd really like some info on this before I go in, in about an hour. Any replies would be really appreciated. |
| Try calling my FFL (choice Firearms) at 215-245-7211, ask for Cathy, she is honest and I have done over 20 tansfers through her, including mulitple AR's and other 'military rifles'. Keep in mind that some things vary from State to state, though, and she is in PA. |
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I cant help you with your question, but I can sympathize with you. Back when I lived in Wi I went to the Gander Mnt in Euclair to get me a black rifle. It was a 2 hr drive there.I was dissapointed not to find a single one in the rack. When I asked if they could order in a Colt AR-15 rifle for me, the salesman with Mgr. on his tag said this is a family store & we dont carry "those" type of guns. There were alot of people at the counter, & to be honest it really imbarassed me. I felt like a freaking crimanel just for asking. I would never buy any firearm from them ever again.[furious] Even if it's not their store policy, but maybe just some jerks oppinion, there are just to many other places that are good to deal with to get me back in their door! My best advice is to stay the heck away from the Mountian. Sincerely, the Searcher |
| You will have to complete a Form 4473 and a NICS check (unless you have a concealed weapons permit and your state exempts you from them). I don't know why the ATF would delay the release of the rifle, that sounds like BS. I've never had a problem getting a gun through an FFL that just does a transfer for me. I fill out the form and take the gun home. $10 and no BS. I'd find a new dealer. |
| Medicmandan is right, they do the check, but there should be no delay. At least not where I am. I've done a number of AR transfers, there is always the check, takes five minutes and i am out the door every time. They must be giving you a hard time because it is a "military" rifle. The transfer should just be like any other gun. Next time, find another FFL. |
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Gander is full of it... You have to do a 4473/NICS check unless you have a carry permit that exempts you. This MUST occur no matter what when a transfer from a dealer to private party (with exceptions for LEO,etc.) NICS has NO idea if yuo are buying a .22 rifle or a .50BMG... Delays occur for a couple reasons: 1) Similiar names with one having a record. 2) Supplied information must come from third party (INS, etc.) and cannot be supplied right away. <-- This is the MOST common reason for delays) 3) varius others mark |
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see [b][i]27 CFR Part 178.102 Sales or deliveries of firearms on and after November 30, 1998.[/b][/i] you may get the gist of it here: [url]http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/bradyregs.htm[/url] [s]I can't find a CURRENT version on-line. The "green" book of regs all license holders should have has a version more current then what I found on the web.[/s] SEE POST BELOW! |
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[url=http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/qtrly_bulletins/qbv498.htm]LINK[/url] Par. 8. Section 178.102 is revised to read as follows: § 178.102 Sales or deliveries of firearms on and after November 30, 1998. (a) Background check. Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer (the licensee) shall not sell, deliver, or transfer a firearm to any other person who is not licensed under this part unless the licensee meets the following requirements: (1) Before the completion of the transfer, the licensee has contacted NICS; (2)(i) NICS informs the licensee that it has no information that receipt of the firearm by the transferee would be in violation of Federal or State law and provides the licensee with a unique identification number; or (ii) Three business days (meaning days on which State offices are open) have elapsed from the date the licensee contacted NICS and NICS has not notified the licensee that receipt of the firearm by the transferee would be in violation of law; and (3) The licensee verifies the identity of the transferee by examining the identification document presented in accordance with the provisions of Sec. 178.124(c). Example for paragraph (a). A licensee contacts NICS on Thursday, and gets a "delayed" response. The licensee does not get a further response from NICS. If State offices are not open on Saturday and Sunday, 3 business days would have elapsed on the following Tuesday. The licensee may transfer the firearm on the next day, Wednesday. (b) Transaction number. In any transaction for which a licensee receives a transaction number from NICS (which shall include either a NICS transaction number or, in States where the State is recognized as a point of contact for NICS checks, a State transaction number), such number shall be recorded on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, which shall be retained in the records of the licensee in accordance with the provisions of Sec. 178.129. This applies regardless of whether the transaction is approved or denied by NICS, and regardless of whether the firearm is actually transferred. (c) Time limitation on NICS checks. A NICS check conducted in accordance with paragraph (a) of this section may be relied upon by the licensee only for use in a single transaction, and for a period not to exceed 30 calendar days from the date that NICS was initially contacted. If the transaction is not completed within the 30-day period, the licensee shall initiate a new NICS check prior to completion of the transfer. Example 1 for paragraph (c). A purchaser completes the Form 4473 on December 15, 1998, and a NICS check is initiated by the licensee on that date. The licensee is informed by NICS that the information available to the system does not indicate that receipt of the firearm by the transferee would be in violation of law, and a unique identification number is provided. However, the State imposes a 7-day waiting period on all firearms transactions, and the purchaser does not return to pick up the firearm until January 22, 1999. The licensee must conduct another NICS check before transferring the firearm to the purchaser. Example 2 for paragraph (c). A purchaser completes the Form 4473 on January 25, 1999, and arranges for the purchase of a single firearm. A NICS check is initiated by the licensee on that date. The licensee is informed by NICS that the information available to the system does not indicate that receipt of the firearm by the transferee would be in violation of law, and a unique identification number is provided. The State imposes a 7-day waiting period on all firearms transactions, and the purchaser returns to pick up the firearm on February 15, 1999. Before the licensee executes the Form 4473, and the firearm is transferred, the purchaser decides to purchase an additional firearm. The transfer of these two firearms is considered a single transaction; accordingly, the licensee may add the second firearm to the Form 4473, and transfer that firearm without conducting another NICS check. Example 3 for paragraph (c). A purchaser completes a Form 4473 on February 15, 1999. The licensee receives a unique identification number from NICS on that date, the Form 4473 is executed by the licensee, and the firearm is transferred. On February 20, 1999, the purchaser returns to the licensee's premises and wishes to purchase a second firearm. The purchase of the second firearm is a separate transaction; thus, a new NICS check must be initiated by the licensee. (d) Exceptions to NICS check. The provisions of paragraph (a) of this section shall not apply if-- (1) The transferee has presented to the licensee a valid permit or license that-- (i) Allows the transferee to possess, acquire, or carry a firearm; (ii) Was issued not more than 5 years earlier by the State in which the transfer is to take place; and (iii) The law of the State provides that such a permit or license is to be issued only after an authorized government official has verified that the information available to such official does not indicate that possession of a firearm by the transferee would be in violation of Federal, State, or local law: Provided, That on and after November 30, 1998, the information available to such official includes the NICS; (2) The firearm is subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act and has been approved for transfer under 27 CFR Part 179; or (3) On application of the licensee, in accordance with the provisions of Sec. 178.150, the Director has certified that compliance with paragraph (a)(1) of this section is impracticable. (e) The document referred to in paragraph (d)(1) of this section (or a copy thereof) shall be retained or the required information from the document shall be recorded on the firearms transaction record in accordance with the provisions of Sec. 178.131. (Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 1512-0544) |
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Rifleman308 gander is a shit hole for buying weapons..if you are around Madison go to the ammo box in sun prairie he charges $30 per weapon transfer fee all you have to do is go in and ask him..he will say $30 and give you a signed copy of his FFL to send the other dealer. |
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Before I decided to build my own hard rifle-case (due to the lack of any under 48". I needed 43"), I went to Gander looking for one. When I mentioned that I needed a case 43" in size, they said 'What kind of rifle is that small, anyway?'. I said 'AR-15', they said 'Uhhh, sorry'... Gander does not like ARs... However, I do my transfers through locals, and have had no BS from them. |
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IMHO. the transfer fee of $30 is freaking joke. Serously, it takes about 5 minutes of their time to make a totaly FREE call, & write your weapon into their log books. It really is a joke.Ithink that would equate to, say it takes 10 min's eache gun = 6 per hr = $300. I dont know abot you , but I dont know the last tim this ol boy made $300 an hr! I think $10 to $15 would be a lot more fair to everyone. An ffl only cost $200. If we all got ffl's,or enough that we could take care of our friends at cost, we could save enough in just a few purchases to pay for it, & you could also get dealer pricing on ammo, & gear! It boggels the mind to think how much some of us would save! I had a guy tell me his dealer gets $50 a pop in his town, just to transfer, not to mention the attitude some dealers try to cop because you didnt buy from them. |
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I try to go where its cheapest also, but I have to look at the dealers side of it too. They are in business, not usually doing this as a hobby. They usually have high insurance, a storefront, and need to keep food on the table like the rest of us. Wouldn't you be offended if someone told you, you made too much money and you should do your job for less. Dealers make much less than plumbers and electricians. Please remember, in some small towns, not everyone is buying guns everyday.... |
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I understand what your saying & I agree that a worker is worth his wages, but I'm going to get my own ffl as soon as possible. A jewish accountant once told me retail is for suckers. I'm also refering more to big co's like the Mnt, rather than the mom & pop type stores, which for the most part have been very good to deal with. |
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I don't think $20-$30 is that bad of a price for a transfer. Of course I shopped around untill I found an FFL who does them for $10 for me. [;)] I know some FFL's that charge 10% of the value of the gun for a transfer. The FFL is charging the fee because you are going around the middle man by ordering from a wholesaler or another person. You should consider yourself lucky, if they didn't do the transfers for you, you wouldn't get the guns. |
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Quoted: IMHO. the transfer fee of $30 is freaking joke. Serously, it takes about 5 minutes of their time to make a totaly FREE call, & write your weapon into their log books. It really is a joke.Ithink that would equate to, say it takes 10 min's eache gun = 6 per hr = $300. I dont know abot you , but I dont know the last tim this ol boy made $300 an hr! I think $10 to $15 would be a lot more fair to everyone. An ffl only cost $200. If we all got ffl's,or enough that we could take care of our friends at cost, we could save enough in just a few purchases to pay for it, & you could also get dealer pricing on ammo, & gear! It boggels the mind to think how much some of us would save! I had a guy tell me his dealer gets $50 a pop in his town, just to transfer, not to mention the attitude some dealers try to cop because you didnt buy from them. actually, if the dealer your using for a transfer doesn't have an FFL on file with the company you want to buy something from, they have to send a copy of their license that was PHYSICALLY SIGNED BY THEM before any transaction can be done. (anything w/o an ACTUALL signature is not valid) The place doing the transfer has to LOG the firearm and before giving to you, has to perform the NIC check (~ see 178.102 above for full detail) |
| Ya got me! So go sign a peice of paper, fold it put it in a .02 cent envalope, put a stamp on it & address it. Then make a few minute free phone call, write a general discription of the weapon, & see how long it takes. I'm just saying it really seams like to much money to me! |
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My friend, it is obvious that you have not been involved or seen the "whole" picture. Do you know how much F&T insurance costs for $50k? Do you know how much liability insurance costs per gun for a dealer? On average the phone calls to NICS take 3-5 minutes. Our local POC takes a total of 20-30 minutes of wall clock time on a good day. Are you aware of what happens when a delay happens? Multiple phone calls because customers want you to check each day. Are you aware of when a deny occurs and the extra work you go through? Sending an FFL out is more work than what you think. It costs $1-2 for each one, when your time/effort is included. Ordering can take a lot of work and eat up a lot of time - which makes you no money. Have you ever had BATF do an audit and the way you run your business, you have to take a full day off from work. The list keeps going. There is a LOT more to it than what you think. Just think if you had an FFL and sodl a Bushmaster rifle to the DC sniper. You would have already lost you house because you did not buy liability insurance. |
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Searcher: Also, the ATF seems to frown aupon people applying for an FFL for casual pirposes. They really stay on top of it these days and make sure you do everything just right. dot you "I's" and cross your "T's". It's not so easy these days for someone to get an FFL to make it easier to buy yourself guns or to do transfers for your buddies. The ATF will give you a hard time if you don't get all the necessary insurance and the proper facilities for storing and keeping firearms. You don't have to have a store front, but you do have to keep regular hours in some form at the adress you give for the FFL. At anytime the ATF can send someone to make sure you are actually running a business even if you are running it out of your own home. They can inspect your records at anytime to make sure everything is on the up and up. Rest assured, if they don't like the way you run things they will go over everything with a fine tooth comb and scrutinize evry little transaction, purchase, and transfer you have made. If things don't match up for any reason whatsoever, you are in for a grilling. Twenty years ago, there were a lot of guys who got FFL's just for the hell of it, but these days it's a lot different. The ATF won't give you an FFL if you tell them it's so you can save $30 on transfers and get discounts for parts. If you lie to them (or bend the truth) to get the FFL, they will figure it out and pull your license. You may also be in a bit of hot water for deceiving them as well. With the trouble and extra cost above the FFL fee, it is really not worth it unless you are actually starting your own business. And if you do start your own business, I think you will then understand why a transfer costs $30. Don't think that getting an FFL will be easy or make your life easier, it most likely will be the opposite. |
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Quoted: In my area, all the local shops were $60 for a transfer PLUS the state 7.5% tax that gets assessed! Its crap, but i figure, if I dont pay the $60... no gun transfer ;) $60, just for the transfer? Wow. My local store charges $25 for a copy of the FFL if I am buying elsewhere that soesn't already have their FFL on file, and then another $25 for the transfer. It's a bit steep, but they are nice guys who have given me deals and price breaks in the past. I just figure I will save at least that much on a future purchas from them, so it works out. But $60 plus a tax? Are you having things transferred in from within the state? I always have things transferred from out of state just to save on the tax. I find that prices are usually better elsewhere anyway. But Nevada seems to be one of the gunowners paradises so i guess you have an abundance of good guns and good deals in the state. |
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I have a FFL dealer license, and I order guns and accept transfers for individuals. I charge $20 per transfer, and I'm certainly not getting rich. In fact, the main reason I do FFLs is so that I can buy guns for myself and my friends directly, and save money. If anyone else in my area is interested in going thru the BS of screwing with the ATF, keeping records, going to UPS and pick up the packages because the customer didn't give you the correct ammount of money order, etc., go for it. But, first you are going to have to hassle with the local zoning board to get a permit to operate a small business from your house, then you are going to have to get liability insurance (unless you want to risk losing everything you own), then you have to lay out $300 for the FFL license, and whatever your state charges for it's license. Oh yeah, If someone doesn't want to pay the $20, don't whine to me, go someplace else that will do it cheaper. Better than that, you get the license, deal with the ATF, and I'll let you do the hassle and all I have to spend is $20.00 more than dealers cost for a brand new gun! |
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Yea, the $60 was quite hefty, but i was ordering from an out of state dealer, and you're right, NV is like gun-owner's paradise, so maybe the local shops are just trying to keep business in town (there are like 30 shops in town, plus wal-mart, k-mart, and every sporting goods shop... all of which sell firearms). But, i wanted an EA rifle, local shop didnt have any, so $60+tax it was... |
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Just for everyones knowledge, I work at a place that has an ffl. I buy guns for others, & ship them all over the country. Never had any of the batf problems you speak of. I have seen this side of it so while I may not state my case perfectly, please spare me the violins, & bleeding hart music of the total cost, & the batf b.s. about the difficulty of it all. I may have been born at night, but it dang sure wasnt last night. when I read some of these post it reminds me of Hamlit " I think she doth protest to loudly" IMHO which I am aloud to have. I relize the high cost of doing buisness, but I'm talking about the cost of service, versus the effort extended. I also dont care for the bs attitude that dealers have givin me for going around the middle man, while paying me back by charging what I feel is an acsorbanant fee, for the process. I relize it's a wash when the guy gets refused, but isnt having a buisness a gamble to begian with. Dont pout if you dont alway win. |
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Quoted: Just for everyones knowledge, I work at a place that has an ffl. I buy guns for others, & ship them all over the country. Never had any of the batf problems you speak of. I have seen this side of it so while I may not state my case perfectly, please spare me the violins, & bleeding hart music of the total cost, & the batf b.s. about the difficulty of it all. I may have been born at night, but it dang sure wasnt last night. when I read some of these post it reminds me of Hamlit " I think she doth protest to loudly" IMHO which I am aloud to have. I relize the high cost of doing buisness, but I'm talking about the cost of service, versus the effort extended. I also dont care for the bs attitude that dealers have givin me for going around the middle man, while paying me back by charging what I feel is an acsorbanant fee, for the process. I relize it's a wash when the guy gets refused, but isnt having a buisness a gamble to begian with. Dont pout if you dont alway win. Perhaps you have never seen the place have problems because the place you work of rhas a legitimate business and isn't buying guns and doing transfers for his beer buddies out of his living room. Also, if you owrk for a place that has an FFL, can't you get your place of employment to do the transfers for you for less or no cost? When you do busniess with anyone, you pay for the overhead too. If you eat at a restaurant or shop at Kmartm or whtever you pay for the cost of business as well as labor and the actual cost of the product. A chain of stores can charge less, because they buy items in bulk and the overall costs are spread out more. A smaller busniess has only so much resources and has only so much business to cover overhead. I am not trying to talk you out of anything and I am not saying you are wrong about anything. I just want to point out the cost of such an effort goes far beyond the FFL fee. It's a lot different for a person that doesn't plan on starting a full blown store front business to get and keep an FFL than it is for the average joe. There are many hidden costs and more scrutiny from the powers that be on a casual FFL holder. I am not saying it can't be done, but I am saying that it will be a lot more difficult than you make it out to be. My main pont was I just think you will realize why the FFL's charge what you do and what they go through once you get your own license. I wish you all the luck in the owrld on that and if I lived in Tennessee I would gladly give you my business. I aponlogize if I upset you or offended you in anyway, that was not my intent. |
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Yes, the place I work for does provide me the oppertunity to get my weapons at cost. It's one of the perks. I have however in the past gone threw this whole prosses of getting guns transferd. It has never been a pleasnt experiance for me, due to the treatment of gun dealers that are angry I didnt buy their products. The dealers that sold me the guns where sweat as sugar, but the same was not true of the transfer agent I used. It inspired me to not patranise them for any future buys. Even if they had that weapon in stock. Knightone, I am not offended at your comments, & I thank you for your comments of kindness in the last paragraph. I relize nothing is as easy as it looks, but I always told the kids in the youth group that I pasterd, that nothing worth having comes easy. We all have areas that God has gifted us in, & if mine is working with guns then I want to use it to benafit my family, & freinds. The same way they use their talents to help me out. I am sure I will get a taste of the hard part, but then again, I'm sure my dad doesn't like tearing out my toilet to fix it for me. Life is a strugle, a battle every day. i'm just trying to cut dowm on my daily ration ration of bs. Please forgive me if I offended you, or if you feel i've attacked you for your opinions. This foram is a great place to have a good argument, & maby come away with a different point of view. I thank you all for the courage to voice your personal opinions. America is great! The Searcher |
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Glad to see you work at a place that has an FFL. Are you allowed to sign the FFL? Do you know how much your place of employment pays for liability insurance per gun? Do you know ho wmuch your employeer pays for liability insurance? Do they haev an SOT and pay $500 or $1000 a year for it? Do you realize they pay your salary for the proceeds of transfers along with everything else? Based upon what you have said so far there are a lot of the "gun" business that you are not aware of and rightfully so - that is your employeers job. Answer one simple question. How much do you think liability insurance is for one dealer sales/transfer? |
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