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Posted: 1/7/2003 8:54:15 PM EDT
| I've just got to get this idea out and see what others think. I've been a collector of Ruger mini-14 with factory folding stocks for many years. Yes, I love my AR's also,but that's where my questions arise.Now we can put aside the fact that the gun laws are made by self-rightous,and (thank GOD) convinced of their own superior intelligence do-gooders who really need to find other hobbies.Anyhow,here's the deal-I understand about the "disapearing"stocks like the mini-14 folders and others such as Butler Creek to name a few. These are stocks that basically just "disapear" and make the gun much easier to hide.But the "collapsable" AR-15 stocks I would argue are nothing more than "ADJUSTABLE".I can show examples of target stocks for AR's that have almost the same amount of "adjustment" in them.They've come out with the cutdown buttstocks (You know the ones that look like a normal AR buttstock only 1/2 the length. So let me get this straight, I can have a short buttstock or a regular buttstock,just not one that ADJUSTS in between the two!!! I'm NOT a lawyer or in law enforcement,so if I'm mistaken,take it easy on me, but I think I would take the argument to court if the "STOCK-POLICE" ever caught me with an ADJUSTABLE (collapsable) stock on the wrong year of AR!!! Not that I would EVER condone or participate in such an activity!! What do you guys think? |
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This issue has come up before. A lot of people were of the opinion that they would never even take you to court over it for the fear of losing - which would set precedence and basicly make the "adjustable" stocks all legal. I agree they should be legal because they are merely adjustable, not truly collapsable. |
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Quoted: This issue has come up before. A lot of people were of the opinion that they would never even take you to court over it for the fear of losing - which would set precedence and basicly make the "adjustable" stocks all legal. I agree they should be legal because they are merely adjustable, not truly collapsable. Yea, I see what you're saying. I agree that they are adjustable and not truly collapsable but it would all depend on the judge's perspective and his perceived intent of the 1994 law. Of course I'm just armchair-lawyering over here. Who knows . . . if we all do our part, maybe in 2004 we won't have to worry about it any more. [:D] E-95 |
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I guess one possible way of looking at this is: what is the definition of the word "collapse" or is there a legal definition specifically geared toward weapon stocks? col·lapse ( P ) Pronunciation Key (k-lps) v. col·lapsed, col·laps·ing, col·laps·es v. intr. To fall down or inward suddenly; cave in. To break down suddenly in strength or health and thereby cease to function: a monarchy that collapsed. To fold compactly: chairs that collapse for storage. v. tr. To cause to fold, break down, or fall down or inward. If you go by the common definition then collapse doesn't necessarily mean that the object has to disappear. Take a building for example. The technical definition of a building that has lost structural integrity is a “collapsed structure”. The building didn't disappear; it just got shorter. An attorney could argue that a stock that can vary its length would be “collapsible stock”. As far as any specific weapon definition, I'm unsure. Thoughts? E-95 |
| See now this is what I'm talking about. I can't remeber the name of the companies,there are a couple,but I've seen attachments for the buttstocks that have 4-6" of adjustment.Heck, even some high-grade sniper bolt-actions have stocks that adjust quite aways.I guess it just depends on which side of the bed whoever catches you got up on that morning!! |
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Quoted: Isn't the law an Assault Weapons law and consequently the lenght of the stock in regard to the concealment is what's at hand. I belive and am in the process of finding out that even a fixed stock of to short a lenght will be deemed illegal. The NFA covers minimum length for Rifles & Shotguns. AW Ban covers telescoping/folding stocks Short stocks are perfectly legal as long as the rifle meets the proper barrel length and overall length. The AW ban was based on 'looks' not 'capability of hiding'; it was a law based on emotion not logic. There are 'adjustable' buttplates which require tools and/or spacers to change the length. Stock doesn't adjust - just the buttplate (cant, height, & length of pull). So far nobody's had any problems with them on post-ban rifles and they have been used for years on post-ban match rifles. |
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The definition is based more on perception than reality, but that's the way it's defined. I'm guessing, but I think the classification of the CAR-style stock as being 'collabsible' [i]per se[/i] is attributed to the fact that its length can be quickly altered by manipulating a lever, button, etc., instead of having to loosen set screws (as on target-type guns), make the adjustment, & then re-tighten those same set screws. The key is the difference in the time required to make the adjustment for each type. The reasoning for the inclusion of collapsible stock features in the ban was probably because such firearms were/are deamed to be 'concealable'. Stupid? Illogical? Yup. Drive-by shootings & related "gang warfare" activity probably owe to the inclusion of this attribute into the law. Criminals set the legal tone. Sad but true. Then of course, there's always the 'agenda' factor, which is served by such legal incrementalism. In this sense, whether crime is realated to 'evil features' is irrelevant. The goal is to rid us of the painful presence of our sinful toys. It's called parlimentary dictatorship. For your own good - w/ a smile, of course.[;)] The incrementalists know that since this feature is now accepted as a standard in the law by the general public, any attempts to change it will stir the dreaded "public outcry", which will intimidate pro- politicians from changing it. In fact, in the world of politics, it probably doesn't even matter if the anti's are in the minority, so long as they are perceived to be sufficiently large enough in number to be politically intimidating. Also sad, but probably true. The infamous 9th Circuit Ct. demonstrated this when it immediately reversed itself on its pledge ruling after the masses got pissed. Also, in so doing, they proved that the courts [i]are[/i], indeed, subject to the winds of politics (though they would deny this). So much for conviction.[slap] - dumbasses. |
| Master Blaster brings up a point I did'nt think of,and thats the "timing" issue as to how fast the gun can be altered.Personally I think it's a very good perception,therefore I'm sure it's pure coincidence!!! No gun-grabber is capable of such deep thought or understanding!! But it is still PURE S E M A N T I C S,if I run you down and kill you with a peddle-car or Mack truck,the end result is still the same.Therefore I've come to the conclusion that if ANY adjustable stocks are allowed I'm not going to worry about it any more and if the stock-police ask,I'll just say it's a pinned post-ban stock and....Golly sir,the pin must of fallen out!I'll get it taken care of ASAP(also do some gasping and holding my hands up to my mouth as if in shock)just like when my mom found Playboys and Jack Daniels under my bed in highschool.PROBLEM SOLVED! [0:)] [:)] |
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Polarisfan, I think you're really rolling the dice with that one. If the officer in question isn't knowledgeable on this particular weapon then you'll probably be okay. However if he knows his stuff, he'll know that the receiver extension with a post ban stock is the standard full length whereas those on a pre-ban collapsing stock are shortened to allow for adjustment. If that's the case, he'll know you're lying. E-95 |
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Most of the postban collapsible style stocks are molded or welded open. The DPMS stock is pinned open, then glued to make sure. There must be backup method of keeping the stock open even if there is a pin holding it open. The ATF is very strict about this. If you had a stock that was merely pinned open and the pin fell out, they could still bust you for it even if it was na accident. The stock was not permanently affixed open and therefore not compliant with the law. Dont' risk it. Even if you wanted to risk it, you shouldn't have come onto this board and state that you were. Posts about actually comitting an unlawful act should not be posted on this site. Anyone and everyone can see that you stated you were going to knowingly break the law. It can be implied that this site condones such actions. Every illegal act commited only fuels the gun banners' fight against us. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a nazi. I don't agree with the AW ban, the import ban, the clas 3 registration and NFA regulations. I don't agrre with them nor do I like them. I just don't think breaking those laws is the best way to fight them...yet. At the very least, you should not have announced on the boards that you will just feign ignorance or shock if caught breaking the law. |
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Sorry to be blunt but putting a collapsing stock on a post ban rifle is stupid. Yeah you may be able to BS your way out of it if you get caught BUT I sure as hell wouldn't count on it. You get busted, you definatly loose your rifle, you may loose your freedom and your right to ever own another firearm. Screw that, if you just have to have one of those uber cool collapsing stocks, pony up for a pre ban. Even better get motivated and write your congress critters and tell em to let the stupid, unconstitutional, ineffective AW ban sunset. If you want a cool short stock on your post ban gun, check out the stuff at http://www.riflestocks.com/html/ar15_m16_products.html The Boom Tube stock is pretty cool, you adjust the length by cutting the buffer tube to your desires length of pull. The ARFX is cool too, I would like to build a post ban dissy with one of these on it, course I gotta finish the current project first. Q |
| Let me say that I don't intend to knowingly break the law,it seems that so many things are illegal that I'm fully capable of doing it by accident! Alot of the reason for the discussion is a post I read in another forum where the author was bummed because the collapsable AR stock would be the perfect thing to allow comfortable shooting for him and his wife.Without having to change stocks.And I've noticed more products for adjusting the length of pull for AR's(in the target arena mainly),and it seems the area is getting grayer by the minute.And I can say that I definatly learned some interesting things from the group. I am the kind of person that will push an issue to the end of the earth if I belive in it,but firearms are very important to me in many ways,so I do try to positivly promote them. And playing WITHIN the rules and laws are the ONLY way to do that,regardless of facts,opinions,predjidices ,and common sense......If we are to ever change things.[USA] |
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I have a post bam M4 with a CAR stock. I tried to take out the set screw, close it and re-pin it. It didnt work. When you collapse it, the buffer tube still hangs out there. So I think you would need a real CAR collapsible stock and pin it where you like it for this idea to work. Edited cause im a F*cking idiot |
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Quoted: I have a post bam M4 with a CAR stock. I tried to take out the set screw, close it and re-pin it. It didnt work. When you collapse it, the buffer tube still hangs out there. So I think you would need a real CAR collapsible stock and pin it where you like it for this idea to work. Edited cause im a F*cking idiot Yes, I have thought about doing this, however i don't think the ATF would be happy about the procedure. Merely pinining the stock open is not sufficient as it too easily allows the stock to be converted back to it's original state. DPMS pins their stock, but I think they also glue it open along with pinning it as sort of a back up locking system. The law is silly and open to alo tof interpretation and really doesn't dter criminals fro just doing what they will. However, until the expiration of the ban in 9/04, we are stcuk with what we get and that's that. |
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