Saw "reviews" this month in two magazines for the FN M-249 SAW. Seems FN will soon offer it to LE. While I understand it as a perk for Class III dealers, am I the only one that thinks one in the hands of a LEO is a crazy idea? Where are these attacking hordes of Arab Terrorists that are mentioned in the magazine articles?

There is more to the LEO/ GOV stamp than just the beat cop.  I agree that is has little use for 99.9999% of any law enforcement use.

I agree - I can't think of a situation where that would be needed in a LE engagement.  Full auto is one thing but the SAW is designed as a supressive weapon that is far from precise...  it fires a "cone of fire" into an area of effect.  I can fire an M-60 much more acuratly than I can a SAW.  

I'd think that if a warrant is that high risk then wait to serve it another time.

If things have gone that far sideways that the police need SAWs or M60s then by that point that National Guard should already be called out.

Might have a use for DOE and similar LE-type units at reactors.  Would not want to find out that my local PD had one just general use though.

Local PD with a 249 SAW....make ya think twice before running that light....
[:D]

The is talk of a bill in congress to allow nuclear security guard to use the same firearms as used by DOE guards.  It is an attempt to end run around states with preban/hicap mag laws.  IF this passes, and waves the Class 3 restrictions as well (DOE and DOE contract (Whakenhut) personel already used DOE owned M60 as well as M16 type firearms) your local power company might be a customer.

"Well sarge, we saw Mr Shmuckowitz blow the light on Commerce.  After he pulled over, I laid down suppressing fire with about 75 rounds in laddered bursts along the driver's side as my partner moved up to the passenger window..."

There was a thread on this topic a few weeks ago.  Someone posted a pic of LASO I believe it was, with an M-60.  I don't think Metro has any but then again citizens in Nevada are allowed to own guns and defend themselves unlike Los Angeles so crime isn't as bad.[;D]

Pay your summonses on time and there won't be any need for violence.

I agree (being a guard member)!!! I also work at an indoor range and do some instructing, The average cop can't shoot for shit! These guys with SAWS??? Fuckin' A, head for the hills!

I dont have a problem with a cop owning one of these anymore then I do a law abiding citizen.

If you guys can't support that, good luck protecting your AR15s.  Right?

The 86 ban on machine guns is wrong.  So is the 34 NFA.  

Having said that, I can see your concern, and a LEO better have damn good cause to open one of those bad boys up in an urban setting.

E (Qiii)

The 50BMG, BAR, & various 30cal belt fed weapons were been used by law enforcemnet in the early 1900's.

Today, I see limited use for belt fed weapons, or even single shot 50BMGs. Their usefulness would be largely limited to agencies that have large international shipping ports or airports. Where it may be necessary to disable large boats or aircraft.

Two recent local incidents. A insane man stole a Greyhound bus and the police had nothing capable of stopping the bus.

Plus SDPD had the guy who stole the M60 tank and ran amoke until he high centered on a K-rail. But then in that incedent a TOW2 would have been more useful than a belt fed weapon.

No, I don't think you are crazy either.  Being a LEO myself I have great troubles in justifying its use in the Law Enforcement Community.  I know that both the 249 & 240 are avialable to us now from DSA, I believe.  Just received their info about those weapons last month.  On a side note, when I was our department's DRMO officer last year I had to justify everything in writing as to the reason why my department would need/want these items from the military.  The catch all phrase that was put down for everything was---USE: "For counter-drug operations".  I never had anything denied to me.  Then after 9-11, my partner decided to put down under Use:  "For counter terrorist & counter-drug operations"(in that order).  The state LEO adviser stated to me on the phone that we were the first people to use the phrase, "counter-terrorist" and that we were "OK'd" to pick up our items.  She also stated that this would be a new phrase for years to come as "counter-drug" had just now been placed on the back burner.  As I type this out, my department is in the process of aquiring from DRMO an M113 for the SWAT unit.  Their justification for it...you bet, "Counter-Terrorism".

[:\]
IMHO, the whole concept of law enforcement agencies being portrayed as para-military units is ridiculous. Frequently I see Metro (Las Vegas) officers walking around [i]Baja Fresh[/i] in BDUs, sidearms in tactical holsters on their thighs, and they drove in with a standard 4-door cruiser. WTF? This is not protecting and serving the public, and it's hell on public relations when the public is facing these guys as if they are being invaded.

Look, I'm not dumb; I know what these guys can face. I understand that police work has had to evolve with the changing face of society, and that they are constantly dealing with moderately organized threats. Especially in this day and age, when facing urban terrorism, we look more and more to our local government to handle the new threats in stride. That's why the LAPD invented SWAT, remember? When you're facing a runaway bus you call in the special weapons guys to handle it. Rank-and-file cops are there to be a presence, to handle the routine work that comes their way, and be the public arm of the police agency. That's how it is supposed to work anyway. They should be wearing class A uniforms, holstering their ubiquitous 9mm DAOs, and driving shiny cars. Leave the heavy work and the SAWs to the special weapons team and their very special circumstances.

Alright, I've hi-jacked this thread enough with my ranting... but remember this: while I'm waking to the reality that it is too late to stop police agencies from becoming militias, there is some other joker, probably working for FEMA, who is drawing up a pet plan to usurp local authorities to confiscate your weapons in the event of an "emergency". [;)]

All I know is that, if I was a LEO, I'd sure as hell would Looooove to get my hands on a m-249.  I don't even know what it is, but it sounds like something that would be lotsa fun to have.

The 249 is the weapon you see on the movie Blackhawk Down.  It is the belt fed, 5.56mm that is shown quite a bit throughout the movie.  No, it is not the M-60.

Here is a link that will take you to a "suped" up version of the 249:

http://fnmfg.com/products/mk46mod0/mk46mod0.htm

To be honest with you SWAT has it's role in LE.  But lately it is the street cop who is getting more of the action than them.  For instance, Immediate Action in an "active shooter" scenario.  First three(3) guys on the scene make up the entry team and go in.  Our policy is that there will be NO WAITING FOR SWAT, you are the SWAT TEAM, go in and get the job done.

Well sir, unfortunatley the "beat cop" can't just plan out foot chases or arrests that end up in wrestling matches.

Not to mention when they get to work accident scenes, fire scenes, or so forth that have shapr things lying about.

If you were in a foot pursuit would you rather have pants that are designed to give good movement, or dress pants?

If you have to carry stuff, evidence supplies, notebooks, rubber gloves, and various sundry, would you rahter have dress pants or pants with "cargo" pockets?

Would you rather spend $35 on durable utility pants that will last or $50 on polyester dress pants the tend to disintigrate?

I agree that thigh holsters are a bad idea, unless you are seeing Taser holsters.

Part of what has been missing in police uniforms for years has been functionality. Generally every bad thing that happens in a community the police are sent to, and arrive first. You want to rush into a burning building when you hear cries for help, knowing that your pants will shrink when exposed to heat?

"Heavy work" often happens because patrol officers find something. N. Hollywood bank robbery was discovered by patrol officers drving by as the alarm call was coming in. Where was SWAT for most of that shoot-out? Not there. In fact they were at training. Had they not been at training it would have taken longer for them to organize and arrive. That's LA with one of the most accesible SWAT teams.

Sorry your "first responders" need to be equipped and outfitted to handle stuff that can come there way.

Do LEA's need M-249's? 2 words, "Zombie Attack". Think about it [:)]

A SAW? No. I have actually had this discusion with my bosses.

There are specific and articulable reasons for some crew-served weapons to be deployed for very specific and narrow situations with trained LE tactical units. Basically, those are situations where barricaded shooters need to be supressed so that other officers can rescue downed citizens or officers. These situations come up infrequently and only your bigger teams would ever need these weapons. I can also think of some vehicle situations and takedowns on groups of violent, armored suspects where crew-served MGs would be of use. Again, these situations would be infrequent.

The SAW doesn't fit the bill because the .223 round doesn't have the appropriate barricade penetration for the job. I could see much more justification for and M60 or M240. What I haven't seen yet is a training or certification program for these weapons for specific, narrow LE roles. We have done some preliminary work on this ourselves, but don't have a crew-served MG, so it mostly academic at this point. Frankly, the need is so slight at my level, that if I had the $5-8K in the budget to spare to buy one of these systems, I would spend it on .223 carbines, body armor and other protective gear that would get used much more often. A crew-served MG is just a bit too much of an extravagance, these days.

Mantracker, you still have to do Justification Letters for stuff through 1033? We get all of our requests approved within 24 hours or so directly over the internet, with the screener being the only person in the agency who has to do any work. Justification is all typed onto the req form on-line, and is usually something like "would be worn by tactical officers" (BDUs and field gear) or "would be used for surveillance by officers (binoculars).

Aren't these expensive lil' buggers? Questions of need aside... with the cheap M16's available to agencies, how do these people justify the price of a Minimi on a restricted budget?

Remember that boat-load of Haitians?

Imagine if they were Al Qaeda.  Armed with small arms and crew-served weapons.
Who would stop them?
The National Guard?
The 82nd?

Nope.
Cops, that's who.
There should be a reaction force that can deal with such a situation.
If a boatload of Al Qaeda landed in Brooklyn, armed with MGs, how far would they get?
They would DEVASTATE any police force that didn't have MGs.
The Army/Marines would take at least an hour, more likely several, to arrive.
In that time, hundreds of Americans would die.

Think Reaction Force.
The M249 then makes sense.

For anything else...
...No way. That's crazy.

BDU's for cops is a great idea. They could make them in a grey or blue color with sewn-in knee and elbow pockets for pads, like the new Marine BDU's. Thigh holsters for street cops would be too vulnerable to perps. A tactical vest would probably be better than the belt system they use now, with the pistol on the vest. I would like to see the police wearing helmets as well. It might look para-military, but I don't give a rats ass. Whatever is best for the people who protect us.

Al Qaeda invading Brooklyn! Boy I would feel sorry for those Arabs! Brooklyn Cop's, I'm a scarred of those bastards and I worked in East New York for over eight years. Only Brooklyn cop's show up for a detail with three guns, two knives, a slapper and a black jack and that's for the Macy's parade.

The New York City Police Department conducted the largest most successful rescue operation in history of the world. Most of it was done by regular patrol cop's. We don't need no fucking SAW'S! MIKE.  

Being in the military, and training with SF on CQB every so often I cannot justify a SAW to LE for anything. Maybe I am old fashioned; I was always taught that deadly force is the last resort, and to use the minimal amount of force needed to end the danger.

Day to Day operations to include SWAT- There is a reason that trained Special Ops do not use a SAW during CQB- To much liability. Theres to much risk of hitting any hostages or innocent bystanders. In the rare "makes a great 5.99 video at walmart" instances like the LA shootout or a runaway bus, the same applies. A few well aimed shots will take care of business.

A nuclear power plant: Dont know anything about that. Seems though that you would not want to hit the wrong things by mistake.

As for the boatload of Arab Terrorists with machine guns running around NYC; It could happen. But being on a suicide mission, with no supplies, or extra ammo it might be over by the time even the Special SWAT guys get there. Unless they are running racetracks in a helo waiting for something. Even if its does, there would be too many people running around. With a SAW you might hit civilians, cause excessive property damage, etc. The SAW will print nice groups when you load one round at a time. But when you actually fire one, the rounds spread pretty good. Having been issued one for some time, qualifed on it, and shot it allot I know.

[:D]

Listen, I'm no cop-hater. I have two shooting buddies that are Metro, one close friend that is CHP.

The practical reality of urban police work is that society wants/needs them to be a presence and represent the laws they are enforcing. Some cops love to walk around in BDUs because they get that great feeling of the jolly green giant in the 'Nam. Not all cops; some. But a few bad apples can spoil the whole bunch, and we have seen this quite frequently in the last decade. We need our beat officers to police the municipal laws, be a presence to thwart casual crime, and generally keep the populace safe. When a more urgent need arises, the appropriate element or agency responds. Whether that is SWAT, or National Guard, or whatever. I'm not saying this is what happens, I'm saying this is what [u]should[/u] happen.

Do I count on them to personally protect me? Hell no, and those who do are sheep to the slaughter. Do I want them nonetheless to protect the community-at-large? Yes. And I want them to be equipped to do so, but not at the expense of harboring a militia that patrols the streets in Hummvees, wear tactical gear every day, and carry AR15's in the parks. IMHO, when we resort to abiding a day-to-day militia to handle law enforcement, we are surrendering our hopes for the pursuit of happiness and the American way. [:)]

all cops should have a SAW.

two words- Die Hard!



ian

I thought about this for a long time before posting. It seems everytime I post in this section I get in a flame war with someone. So, having said that;

I've been in law enforcement for over 13 years now. I'm an instructor, USMC certified scout/sniper and I'm on our department's SERT/SWAT Team. If anybody likes the SAW I sure do. I've fired them several times. They are sweet. I also like the full auto M4s and MP5s we have for our unit. HOWEVER, IMHO, I feel that there is no place in civilian law enforcement for "full auto" weapons of any size. Much less a chain fed, crew served weapon. In law enforcement our we do not have an identifyable "enemy" but maybe 1 out of 1000 times. And even then, they are not an "enemy", but rather a "suspect" that it is our duty to bring before the courts and let them decide guilty or innocent. I even have a hard time with "3 round burst" in civilian law enforcement. There is too much room for too large of an error. Our "targets" are American citizens, with rights. Criminal or not, thats a courts decision. The use of force we are allowed to use against any suspect is strictly dictated to be ONLY the amout of force nessessary to stop the individual. Deadly force is only authorized in a very limited number of incidents. Full auto is designed to kill, not wound or stop.

I hope it will never happen and maybe there will come a day when our SERT/SWAT TEAM has to respond to a terrorist incident where the suspects are using full auto weapons and there is a large risk for loss of inocent life. In that case I could see the need for full auto to cover advancing operators in their attempt to save hostages or something like that. But even then, I could never see the use for a "SAW". Thats going overboard. If it gets that bad I'd better have some boys in camo going in with me with THEIR SAWs, TOWS, TANKS, and POCKET KNIVES!!

DoorKicker6

Natez:

The 1033 program is the weapons section, right?  We have tried to get a hold of some of the M14's they have to give out of Crane Indiana.  These were going to be for our Honor Guard and possibly our SWAT Team for use in counter-sniper ops.  Our boss wanted them but others in the department didn't.  Therefore we didn't get them.  If I remember correctly, you can only get enough weapons for a certain percentage of full-time staff.  For instance, We have a 350+ man department.  They told us that the maximum allowable M14's for our department that we could have would be around 30-40.  Then again you probably already know this.  For the masks and 60's era "flak vests" we had to do the other form, submit it to our state liason(LESO) and get it approved.  We were told that we had to make a written request within 10 days after tagging items to our LESO as to why we need(ie, need justification for...)would require these items.  We were told by LESO that if we wanted to justify "anything" we needed to put down either "counter-drug or counter-terrorism ops".  This had to be in writing.  We could shop online for items(1033 program) but weren't allowed to order anything via the internet, especially from the 1033.  I remember sitting down one day for 3 hours filling out paperwork for just 100 masks.  You mean that you guys can tag, fill in some blanks on the computer, and then get approved via the internet to pick up said items?  If it is true then I want compensated for my 3 hours of "off-duty" paperwork;)  Have you guys received any armor or weapons from your state?

DK, don't ever hesitate to post here again. I have found that your posts are usually right on the money, and pretty forward thinking for someone in LE. You seem to agree with me; regardless, thanks for your insight.

Mike103 said,

"Al Qaeda invading Brooklyn! Boy I would feel sorry for those Arabs! Brooklyn Cop's, I'm a scarred of those bastards and I worked in East New York for over eight years. Only Brooklyn cop's show up for a detail with three guns, two knives, a slapper and a black jack and that's for the Macy's parade."

lol, that rocks!

Quite honestly, I'm glad NY cops are armed to the teeth.  Not that it would have helped any on 9/11, but I doubt the next attack will be by air.

As for the rest of the country, I am not going to tell any law enforcement agency how they ought to be armed, and I dont think anyone here should either.  Just my opinion.

E (Qiii)

Seriously, though...

...IF those Haitians had actually been Al Qaeda, and they were armed with MGs, RPGs, and AKs?
Who would've stopped them?
Not the Local or state police.
Not against a Company sized force armed with MGs.

The National Guard?
What? Call them up at home?

The 82nd?  The Marines?

How far would such a force get?  How much damage would they do?  

Reaction Force.

1033 is the whole program.

Weapons still require a letter. The formula is 20% of your sworn officers for rifles and shotguns, and 100% for some others (like 1911s), so your agency would be able to get about 80 M14s. We just got several, and they cost us $19.33 each. Honor Guard is otconsidered an appropriate use, but SWAT/Narcotics/Patrol/CT is (and they can be used for Honor Guard, but have to be actually deployed when not in use by them). If you are deploying weapons with SWAT, counter-drug use is generally assumed. The request letter for weapons is signed by the CLEO (Chief or Sheriff) and the non-sworn person with authority to enter your government into a contract (mayor, city manager or county commissioner). Weapons transfers take about 5 months. M16s are available, but they are not taking requests for now; they are still filling backorders. They will be taking new requests next year, hopefully, for M16A1s; they run about $100 in shipping and inspection fees. You can also buy M16s through the 1122 Program. If you are approved for 1033, you are automatically in 1122, which allows you to buy new gear at the GSA price. Procedure is the same as 1033 requests, but you have to find which DLA component stocks the item and submit a Purchase Order with the request. You can get M16A1s for about $330 in 1-2 weeks, A2s for $600 in 30 days, or M4s in a year at $900 (better to buy them through a normal dealer).

They currently aren't tranferring gas masks. Do yourself a favor and just buy MSAs, because they meet the OSHA requirements for first-responders to HazMat incidents, and ,ilitary masks don't.

As far as other gear, we don't have to do the justification letters. We tag and request gear all over the Internet. Our state started this as a pilot program last spring, but the rest of the country is supposed to be on-line by now. There is a different secure site that you go to, which lets you screen ALL surplus gear, with no restrictions. We usually don't get armor, but I just got a bunch of brand new Level IV strike plates, about 10 pounds each, NIB and in great shape, for free and approved in a couple of days with no papaerwork other than what I did on the computer. In the last year we have gotten NVGs, cameras, computers, unmarked cars, BDUs and brand-new MOLLE gear the same way. Most of the gear we get is boring stuff, like servers and other wierd computer stuff that our high-tech forensics guys need, but it saves us a lot of money. Call your state coordinator's office to see if your agency can do the stuff online, too.

I can't imagine a situation that is so bad that I would need a SAW.  If my dept. ever bought one I would a)shit myself, b)ask why my health insurance is so high since we are self fucking funded why aren't we spending the money on that instead of a weapon that has no freaking use at all, and c)shit myself again.

I can think of at least a million better things to spend the money on than a belt fed automatic weapon.

We grabbed a lot of the M17A1's & A2's.  Can't beat the price..FREE!  Really, there is nothing wrong with the M17 series masks as long as they are used in law enforcement.  I wouldn't want to be in the military and have to wear them day in and out in 90+ degree weather.  If the mask is cleaned properly and the filters are maintained it works just fine.  We use them in Riots mostly.  Our SWAT Team uses Avon's after my research and recommendation.  In Ohio we are not under OSHA when it comes to gas masks.  We have our own state laws that are similar to OSHA's guidlines but they are really fluid. We can get away with just about anything for a mask.  

Just a side note here to anyone that uses the M17 series masks.  The filters are considered "Hazardous Material" in this country and therefore should not be disposed of in a landfill.  The Feds say that you are in violation of the law if you do.  Seems that once the filters are exposed to a certain length of time to moisture they begin to break down and produce Bromine gas.  This is on the EPA's list of known carcinogens and once buried they contaminate water and food sources through run off.  You also inhale a certain amount of it which isn't good anyway.  We were "ordered" to sign HazMat forms from the Military in order to take home the masks and about 200+ filters.  They wouldn't lt us leave until we did so.  



The want you to call the EPA and have them dispose of the filters for you.  

[B]IT'S TO HELP THE CHILDREN!!![/B] [rolleyes]

[IMG]http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/themao/mao%20with%20kids.gif[/IMG]

themao [chainsawkill]
_________________________

HO HO HO! Mao Claus is comin to town! [<|:d>]

Be honest you want it for fun at the range. I am a cop and its tempting to use our LEO ability to buy certain guns simply for fun. There is not much use for the SAW in our hands. I love my patrol rifle (M4 semi auto) and I would love to have full auto on it but it would be mostly for fun. I am saving for a class 3 M16 for that purpose.
PAT

GlockFan:

ABSOLUTELY!!!  I would love to be in possession of one.  Jeez, I'd be happy to get any select fire weapon.  My problem is that my boss is a real jerk and won't sign for me.

The issue is a Federal law mandating that public-safety agencies that respond to HazMat incidents, including LE, provide OSHA-approved gear, which basically includes most LE agencies.

Trust me on this; I have been getting emergency management stuff crammed down my throat for the last year, and I have an Armory full of essentially useless M17s since we were required to buy OSHA compliant masks, suits, boots nad gloves for every officer in the Department.

hmmm, that seems like a lot of firepower...what's the next step? minigun on the choppers? seems like a less than efficient use of funds. I would rather see more money for salaries in order to draw more qualified officers. but what do I know

If you are LEO in Southern Arizona , the SAW would be high on my list to have the department have several. With the fucking Mexican Army running interference for drug runners ON THE ARIZONA SIDE OF THE BORDER they are a little out gunned. Christ , there have been 50 + incursions by the Mexican Military into the USA and several as far as 70 miles inland !!! The Bastards have shot & killed several LEO including Border Patrol and a Federal Park Ranger !!
Shit I think there should be a market for at least 100 on the Arizona border alone !!!
Now we need Border Patrol or maybe US Customs to start flying fully armed Apaches things might change down there.

[usa]

Sniper1az, you are not a one-man army! Your comments perfectly illustrate exactly why squad combat weapons like the M249 should not be in the hands of LE. Municipal law enforcement has a fiduciary responsibility to the communities in which they serve, and not chartered to dole out border justice. Leave that to the federal government and their troops.

Sorry, can't trust you on this.  Ohio is not OSHA compliant when it comes to masks.  We have our own standards.  I know this for a fact as I have been talking to our state people for the last year.  I wish in a lot of ways we were, but we are not obligated.  We can use any masks we want, period.

I'm not trying to troll or start a fight, but since when in the hell has the Federal government defended our "borders"? We have a major illegal (and I dare say legal) immigrant problem in this country, and these people aren't god-fearing pro-2nd amendment individuals the Republican Party would like to think they are. Go over to the 1911forum and ask some of the AZ guys there. I remember one of them said they were shutting down emergency rooms because of cost over runs due to illegals. You can't have a friggin socialist welfare state like we have in place in this country and have rampant illegal immigration.

On that note though, I also think some Border Patrol guy with a SAW isn't going to change much of anything. The Federal government sets up the procedures on how they handle illegals (basically a revolving door), and the INS's incompetance is starting to cause many Border Patrol folks to leave. The Drug War doesn't help matters any either. As long as liberal democracy necessitates and demands illegal immmigration for more "poor" voters and the sake of "multiculturalism" and "pluralism", you can be damn sure that it will continue indefinitely. Immigration gives the federal government more power by having more people to vote socialists into office. Go to California to see the results thus far of what used to be a Republican and "free" state.

Besides, I don't want some cop carrying around a gun I myself can't carry in public openly, yet alone OWN.

themao [chainsawkill]

The CHP never thought they would need something that could stop a greyhound bus.

San Diego PD never thought they would need something that could stop a M60 Tank.

Sorry, a Greyhound buses motor is in the rear; plus their might be people on board. With a SAW you would hit them.

An M-60? A SAW will barely scratch the paint.

What are you defining as law enforcement?
City cops, state cops, or feds?

DOE security people certainly could use it. So could the US Border Patrol-hell they could use hardshell HUMVEES with M2's or Mk19s.

The US Marshals Service TAC teams that escort things like missiles and nuclear weapons for the AF and Navy and shipments of rocket fuels like hydrazine for NASA could use them.

I think a lot of older cops who lived through the urban race riots of the late 1960's would have liked something like that. In some places the National Guard DID show up with Brownings to shoot back at rooftop snipers.

The problem with the National Guard is that you got to wait for them-they arent exactly minutemen anymore.