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Posted: 11/30/2002 3:02:00 PM EDT
I just looked out the window and spotted "something" in a far-off pasture. It's on my land, so I grabbed my binoculors and took a peek. It was a couple of deer. I'm guessing that they were about 700-900 yards off. I twisted the sights on my M4 up to 700 (that's as far as they'll go before hitting the scope mount) and tried to get a sight picture. I had no intention of acutally firing upon the deer, they were too far off. I didn't want to have to walk all the way over there and gut it and drag it back. But anyways, I couldn't even see them through the sights, they were so far away. They weren't all that big in the 7x40 power binoculers I have.

It have me a whole new perspective on snipers. And on the Marines. They have to qualify with the M16A2, on human-sized targets at 600 yards. I could barely see the deer. Golly.
Link Posted: 11/30/2002 3:41:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2002 3:42:04 PM EDT by Zardoz]
While at the M60 range at Ft Hood once, we were all qualifying, and everything was going OK. After everybody nailed one set of silhouettes, nothing happened, and the gunners at all 5 lanes were staring downrange waiting for the next bunch to pop up. After around 5 minutes or so, the range OIC said over the loudspeakers "Gentlemen, what are you waiting for, the 1000m targets are up." So EVERYbody stared downrange (lane NCOs, shooters, AGs, etc), and not a soul could spot 'em. Finally, we all decided to do the "spray n pray" thing, but nobody hit a damned thing. It's a whole lot harder to see, much less hit, a human-sized target at that kind of distance than most people realize.
Link Posted: 11/30/2002 4:11:12 PM EDT
No kidding. I don't think my M4 could even put a bullet that far. What is the max effective range? (Or is it accurate range) 600 yards? The front sight was WAY bigger than the target. It was neat. I'd never looked through the sights at anything that far off before.
Link Posted: 11/30/2002 5:14:55 PM EDT
don't folks shoot 1000 yard matches with the heavier .223 loads? i imagine the bullet drop is pretty big.
Link Posted: 11/30/2002 5:21:43 PM EDT
Absolutley no flame intended, but Marines don't fire at human sized targets at 600 to qualify. Although I never fired at one of their ranges, I was told by a close friend of mind that they shoot at standard distance targets. The few Jarheads I trained with enjoyed the firing ranges we used in the Army since we had various sized targets at different distances and each shot was timed. As a side note, each of them was an excellent marksman.
Link Posted: 11/30/2002 6:08:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2002 6:11:23 PM EDT by DoorKicker6]
I can't speak for what the Marines do with their M16s first hand, BUT I CAN tell you what they do with their .308 bolt guns and what THEY told me THEY did with THEIR M16s. I went to the Marine Corps Scout/Sniper School as a Law Enforcement Officer. Way back when they would still allow civilian LEO's to attend (only at the written request of your agency Chief or Sheriff). We shot out to 1000 yards with the .308. We even got to shoot the .50 cal rifles out to 1200 yards. Listen to lecture on how in Vietnam some Marines used the .308 to make confirmed kills out to 1800 yards!!! Great school!!! I was able to learn so much that the 200 and 300 yard deer hunting shots around my home were like plinking at 25 yards with a .22. We used the .308 bolt guns most of the time but we did explore ALOT of other weapons and cals. for experence sake. The Marine students talked about how much easier the .308 was to work with at 600 yards compaired to the .223. I never heard them say they were "required" to shoot out to that distance as a normal or ususal thing. BUT my understanding was that the Marines HAD shot out to 600 yards and even FUTHER with their .223s to get to the Scout/Sniper school. P.S. All we students EVER used, even on the .50 cal. was a 10x scope. God has blessed me with a great life so far, and 20/13 vision to boot ;-) DoorKicker6
Link Posted: 11/30/2002 6:19:56 PM EDT
My friend at church, who hunts deer with a Mak-90, he was a Marine and fought in the Gulf. He was an RTO and Mk-19 gunner. He told me that they would take their A2's and at 600 yards, they could pick which side of the face they wanted to hit. They may not have been qualifing at that range, but they can shoot. I think the 1000 yard matches are with 20" and 24" barrels, not 14.5". There's been confirmed kills at 2200 yards with M82s. I think. That's a long way. I doubt I could even see someone at that range. Factor in camoflauge, other guys returning fire, fog of war... that's tough. 1800 yards is a long way, too. Golly.
Link Posted: 11/30/2002 6:39:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2002 6:40:36 PM EDT by ChrisLe]
Originally Posted By ArmyInf: Absolutley no flame intended, but Marines don't fire at human sized targets at 600 to qualify. Although I never fired at one of their ranges, I was told by a close friend of mind that they shoot at standard distance targets.
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I beg to disagree but your friend is misinformed. Although Marines do not fire out to 600 yards to qualify, they fire at a smaller than life size target at 500 yds. Their course of fire consists of 7 stages. The stages consist of both timed slow and rapid fire stages at various distances.They are as follows: Sitting, kneeling and standing at 200 yards. Kneeling and prone at 300 yards Prone at 500 yards. The target at 200 and 300 yards is commonly referred to as the 'dog' target. Its bullseye measures 19" high and 26" wide. The 500 yard target is referred to as the 'B Modified' target. Its bullseye measures 40" high by 20" wide. As you can see the B mod target is much smaller than an average man... It's been about a year since I qualed on the KD course so my numbers may be a little rusty. I'm sure some [s]jarhead[/s] Marine [;)] will correct me if I'm wrong.
Link Posted: 11/30/2002 6:48:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Zardoz: While at the M60 range at Ft Hood once, we were all qualifying, and everything was going OK. After everybody nailed one set of silhouettes, nothing happened, and the gunners at all 5 lanes were staring downrange waiting for the next bunch to pop up. After around 5 minutes or so, the range OIC said over the loudspeakers "Gentlemen, what are you waiting for, the 1000m targets are up." So EVERYbody stared downrange (lane NCOs, shooters, AGs, etc), and not a soul could spot 'em. Finally, we all decided to do the "spray n pray" thing, but nobody hit a damned thing. It's a whole lot harder to see, much less hit, a human-sized target at that kind of distance than most people realize.
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Yep, Ft. Hood. If you were referring to the one out on west range road, then I couldn't agree more. But about snipers. I respect their patience more than their accuracy. Hitting a target at long ranges isn't hard...waiting for it is.
Link Posted: 11/30/2002 6:56:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2002 6:57:13 PM EDT by Boomholzer]
ill just work at groups at >500yrds with 30-cal bolts, autos and be happy. [:D]
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