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Posted: 11/12/2002 2:42:57 PM EDT
I would just let everyone know about the conduct of an individual of the company (I'll leave his name out because I don't want any personal attacks, as cited by the rules). But there is no excuse for the way this person treats potential buyers.

This weekend was my birthday and I went to the gun show in West Palm Beach with my wife, intent on buying something (she lets me pick my own stuff out because she's clueless) and I stopped at the Excalibur Arms table... I was looking at a few rifles and was examining one of the scope’s side-mounted parallax knob and this guy who manages or owns the place comes over and says, "Don't play with that" and proceeded to look at me like I killed his mother or just committed come heinous crime.

I left the gun show pissed off for being talked to like some kind of eight year old for playing with a scope that was obviously so fragile, to touch it would break the thing.

I figured he was probably just having a bad day, but later came to find out this was not the case; it turns out he’s just nasty. I told a friend (who is a cop) about it and he said, “The tall skinny guy?” I said yes and he said the same thing happened to him, except he was checking a rear sight when he was scolded.

They should set up at the gun show with glass cases so no one can examine what they are selling. The only reason I can see treating people the way they do is because their products are junk and a minimal amount of handling will alter the way they shoot. Perhaps they know the rings are garbage and touching the scope will throw it out of zero. Or the stocks are poorly glass bedded and will shift with mere shouldering of the weapon. Or the barrel is improperly threaded, is not seated properly and don’t want people to see their workmanship. I cannot think or any reason to treat people this way or to be so nasty, unless the guy has a psychological disorder of some sort. That would explain a lot. But I still think it boils down to the product he sells. His stuff sure looked pretty, but looks won’t shoot bull’s-eyes.

So I don’t know who these great references are, but they are obviously people who haven’t dealt with this guy. Anyone who deals with him or tries to check out his product is in for a real surprise. I Pity the poor soul who unknowingly buys this stuff and has to deal with him for customer support!

I have absolutely no beef with these people and have never heard of them, so I've no reason to waste my time to write this. In fact, I HATE writing derogatory letters. I would like to tell all of my friends that the people in the firearms industry are the nicest I've ever known and they really know how to treat the customers. This person really makes me angry simply for the fact that he's the reason I cannot do this.

If I was the lone person to experience this, I probably would not write this letter. I only have one friend that attends these gun shows and if it happened to him, too, then the odds are, they treat most people this way.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 2:51:46 PM EDT
I would strongly suggest you knock this off. You have made three posts all bashing this business from an account you clearly set up only to do this. I think you're here trying to cause trouble and am referring you to the staff of this board for review.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 3:01:50 PM EDT
Hiram Ranger,

That's a fair question because it is only my second post. But the truth is, I want to get into the AR-type of rifle. I'm a distance guy myself, but as I see what's happening to the land around here, there will not be mch distance to shoot at in the future.

So I became a member, read some things on AR's ans went looking at the gunshow. And I've not attacked anyone directly... I've never mentioned names.

Look - I'm not looking to cause waves. Like I said, I don't like writing e-mails of this sort. But I'm not the first this pesron has treated like this and I'm sure I'll not be the last. I feel everyone, especially those who worl hard for thier money, have the right to know who they are doing business with.

Likewise, when I purchase an AR and I have a good experience, please hold no doubt I'll be here telling all about it. I'd rather write good things and make people smile than bad things.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 3:35:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/12/2002 5:26:51 PM EDT by QCMGR]

Originally Posted By USMCGrunt8541:
I would just let everyone know about the conduct of an individual of the company (I'll leave his name out because I don't want any personal attacks, as cited by the rules). But there is no excuse for the way this person treats potential buyers.


Then why post? Without a reference point, this is useless.

This weekend was my birthday and I went to the gun show in West Palm Beach with my wife, intent on buying something (she lets me pick my own stuff out because she's clueless) and I stopped at the Excalibur Arms table... I was looking at a few rifles and was examining one of the scope’s side-mounted parallax knob and this guy who manages or owns the place comes over and says, "Don't play with that" and proceeded to look at me like I killed his mother or just committed come heinous crime.

So you, being a pussy, put it down.

I left the gun show pissed off for being talked to like some kind of eight year old for playing with a scope that was obviously so fragile, to touch it would break the thing.

See above.

I figured he was probably just having a bad day, but later came to find out this was not the case; it turns out he’s just nasty. I told a friend (who is a cop) about it and he said, “The tall skinny guy?” I said yes and he said the same thing happened to him, except he was checking a rear sight when he was scolded.

How come you did not act like a man.

They should set up at the gun show with glass cases so no one can examine what they are selling. The only reason I can see treating people the way they do is because their products are junk and a minimal amount of handling will alter the way they shoot. Perhaps they know the rings are garbage and touching the scope will throw it out of zero. Or the stocks are poorly glass bedded and will shift with mere shouldering of the weapon. Or the barrel is improperly threaded, is not seated properly and don’t want people to see their workmanship. I cannot think or any reason to treat people this way or to be so nasty, unless the guy has a psychological disorder of some sort. That would explain a lot. But I still think it boils down to the product he sells. His stuff sure looked pretty, but looks won’t shoot bull’s-eyes.

Now we see your true intentions.

So I don’t know who these great references are, but they are obviously people who haven’t dealt with this guy. Anyone who deals with him or tries to check out his product is in for a real surprise. I Pity the poor soul who unknowingly buys this stuff and has to deal with him for customer support!

If you learn how to interact with people as an adult you will command respect.

I have absolutely no beef with these people and have never heard of them, so I've no reason to waste my time to write this. In fact, I HATE writing derogatory letters. I would like to tell all of my friends that the people in the firearms industry are the nicest I've ever known and they really know how to treat the customers. This person really makes me angry simply for the fact that he's the reason I cannot do this.

Yes you have a beef, but not the balls to address the issue.

If I was the lone person to experience this, I probably would not write this letter. I only have one friend that attends these gun shows and if it happened to him, too, then the odds are, they treat most people this way.


And your point is?

Edited to add:
Sorry it happened on your birthday.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 3:36:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/12/2002 3:38:27 PM EDT by FREEFALLE6]
USMCGrunt8541,
I would just talk to the guy, dont leave pissed, just pull him to the side, and ask "whats up I was interested in the scope", let him talk to you, if he treats you like you don't have a clue, let him,then talk to him to demostrate your knowlage of weapons, and then maybe he wont treat you badly. if he continues to treat you like an idiot f**k'em never let anyone piss you off. just give him a whole hearted "thanks you for your time turd" and move on. There will be other dealers/tables to look at. But realy your best deals are on the internet, unless you want to get a lower, so you can avoid the mailing to the FFL thing.
If I pissed anyone off, sorry, but remember its better to be pissed off than to be pissed on.
FREE
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 4:04:19 PM EDT
From the other side of the table. Last gunshow, a guy popped open a M16 to see how it all works. Ok I said nothing, Talked to others and turned back to find he had taken my select fire Glock apart to see how that worked. Finally he left but it passed. Then to top it off a while later some guy picked up my IPSC 3-gun match rifle and was turning the Elevation and Windage knobs willy nilly. At this point I lost it.

I can't believe the nerve of gun customers who think we put our shit out there for them to play with as they please.

Of course there are plenty of polite people who ask and respect others property.

I imagine the kids who show no respect for other grow up to be adults who show no respect for others.

Link Posted: 11/12/2002 4:16:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/12/2002 4:59:13 PM EDT by Jack19]
"I left the gun show pissed off for being talked to like some kind of eight year old for playing with a scope that was obviously so fragile, to touch it would break the thing."

I understand what you're trying to say with your original post; I understand the feeling. Still, my thought is, grow up.

If the dealer is a jerk, walk away, what do you care after that? If he doesn't want to do business, take your money elsewhere.

I've frequently, and still do, run into what I call the "gun elite." People with little grasp of how to serve customers, or how to price items in the real world so as to actually make a sale. But, you have to your part too, ask before touching.

Look at it as 'not your problem.' There are better, more friendly, more realistic, people from whom to buy.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 4:55:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/12/2002 4:55:44 PM EDT by QCMGR]
The object of my post was to illustrate the following:

Post's like this generate ill will. Based on your description the guy acted inappropriately. I do not know if they had "do not touch" signs. Maybe he did, maybe he had a bad day. Did you stay to find out? I would have. This is what I mean by acting like a man. When I go to a show, I always ask the owner for permission to handle the products before I pick something up. If they say no, then I move along. If they say yes I stay and look. Asking permission demonstrates and acknowledges you are interested in buying something. I never ask to see a gun or accessory I am not prepared to buy. If I am looking at something and the owner offers to let me handle it I will say no unless I am going to make a purchase. Did you ask to look? Probably not. Do you have a beef with them? Yes, the nature and direction of your post indicates you were offended and want us to know. Don't you find it ironic you take offense over my first post but see nothing wrong with yours?
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 5:12:07 PM EDT
Ah... What I did not include in my first post, which I should have done, was the fact that I had been looking at the items already, speaking to a woman that was there. She was answering my questions the best she could do so. It was only until the other guy walked over he threw a fit. The lady looked at me and gave me a "Geez" look.

I would normally brush it off as to the fact that people have bad days. But as I said, a friend of mine that went to another show had the same kind of encounter with the same guy.

He was smarter than I was though... he went to the booth next to the rude guy and bought an AR.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 6:27:07 PM EDT
YOR"RE A GRUNT?or a wanna be
ask before touching
curtesy
SEMPER FI
RECON 7yrs
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 6:39:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/12/2002 6:43:53 PM EDT by USMCGrunt8541]
Enlisted in 95 in the Corps as an 0351 (Dragon/Smaw/Demolitions), spent two years as such then moved to HQ 8th Marines STA (8541) where I spend another three. Last year and a half was as a PMI at Sone Bay and a CWSSI at LeJeune.

Now I'm out, but I've got 1200 yards to shot on near West Palm, FL and do so on a regular basis.

Yeah, I'm a grunt. :)

Recon? Battalion or Company? I was attached out to a few units of both. Some of the company guys are a bit nits, heh heh. Also spent my fair share of time attached to various small craft companies and other units that needed our superior field intel gathering abilities (Recon might argue about our abilities being superior... but that's for another conversation, heh heh).
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 6:43:31 PM EDT
I am writing in defense of USMCGrunt8541.

Look, everyone, the guy didn't mention any names. He was not bshing a company by name. Most of us will have no idea who he is talking about. This has no effect on the company, thier staff, or effect their sales. He was not being intentionally hostile to a particualr retailer. He could have named names, but he chose to respect that entity and just post his personal gripes without bringing in "this person" or "that company" He chose not to make it personal.

He had a bad experience and wanted to vent to his fellow AR enthusiasts because we understand and we have been there before. He wanted to share and learn about other bad experiences. That is one of the reasons this board exists. We are here for each other to help, share, and understand.

It is silly to me that people who bash Hesse, ASA, or Oly can do that so freely here while naming names and being entirely hostile toward a particualr company. I don't even want to mention the "buy only Colt, cause the others are crap" a-holes that are constantly bashing the other companies by name. So the guy is a newbie here. Does that mean he can't vent and post his grievances here? Do senior members or paying mewmebers have the sole privilege of bad mouthing AR manufacturers? The guy is new to the AR and was left with a bad taste in his mouth by a complete jerk who had no right to treat a potential customer and a fellow human being like that. I fear the rest of you have soured that taste even more by being completely unsupportive of a fellow member.

I didn't buy an ASA because the members (and moderators) of these boards told me enough horror stories to prevent me from making the purchase. The same thing happened in the case of a Hesse rifle I was looking at. Maybe those people should be reported for bashing a company. And they named names. something USMCGrunt didn't do.

People come here for advice, information, and the God's hosest truth about everything AR and firearms in general. We are the voice of the AR community. We are not here to play nice to the companies we buy from. They are here to provide us with product, service, and support. If they don't give us that, we need to get that out in the open. If we do nothing, just to keep everything nice, they will continue to treat their customers that way.

Is it being less of a man to want to share and hear of similar experiences from fellow members? The insult to USMCGrunt's manhood or maturity was personal and is directly hostile to him. Should I report all of you to the staff? You are creating ill will and directing personal nd unfounded hostility toward USMCGrunt.

This forum is for us. All of us. It is where we can be among our own kind: AR enthusiasts. He had a legitimate complaint and didn't make it personal or damaging to the other party. The day we can't be hosest and open here is the day the corporate structure takes over these forums and it ceases to belong to us. The companies and manufacturers are here to cater to us, not the other way around. The truth shouldn't be hidden and the individual should not be silenced just because it isn't nice to the company.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 6:48:28 PM EDT
Damn, Knightone... that was incredible... almost made me weep.

Seriously, thanks. But the guy who made the insults is entitled to what we are all entitled to - freedom of speech. Besides... he crossed all of it out and wished me a happy birthday. Deep down, he's a good guy. :)

Mark
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 6:54:52 PM EDT
In defense of grunt, I spoke with him in emails and I believe he has no ill intentions. There was some concern, especially with recent problems on the board, that the account might have been set-up to harass a board supporter. In another thread he did identify the seller in question. Anyway, no harm no foul. Grunt seems like a nice enough guy who got a little pissed when he was treated in a less than ideal manner.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 6:58:32 PM EDT
wow guys, i have just read a bunch
of posts that have ignorant gun snob
written all over them. the guy is
just relaying what happened to him in
his own words and has every right to.
a bunch of you dont think he does.
why not just say thanks for the info,
or sorry you had a bad time?? i would
imagine you tactical combat wizards
are just as bad with people as the
guy he discribed. i am always on the
look out for an FYI and took his
comments as a "thanks i'll keep my
eyes open if i am ever dealing with
these characters". get over yourselves.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 6:59:33 PM EDT
I completely second what knightone says. I am obviously not a frequent poster on this board but I do read it on a regular basis because I want to know as much as possible about ARs.

I think that USMCGrunt was posting truthful observations about an experience he had. The personal attacks and the "I'm going to tell on you" threats were so negative it moved me to post here in his defense.

Link Posted: 11/12/2002 7:01:13 PM EDT
F$@K him,

9 times out of 10 there will always be another table selling the same thing cheaper with an honest Joe behind the counter.


BTW I personally always ask permission weather I see a "don't touch" sign or not.

To me its just polite and common courtesy.

If it were me behind the table I would get pissed too if someone were to start severely finger F@$king one of my guns without asking me first.

However from what you described the
guy just sounds like a typical assface.
Dont worry if hes like that to everybody he wont be in business long.

Link Posted: 11/12/2002 7:04:41 PM EDT
I have two rules about gunshows: 1) I will not stop at a table were all the stuff is behind glass, 2) I will not stop at a table that says "do not touch", and 3) I will leave a table that does not have its guns and stuff priced

A few years ago a friend and I were at a gunshow in Mesquite, TX. I had never seen a .50 BMG single shot rifle up close. Just about everyone had one, but they were all "hands off" so I skipped them. But this one guy had one, couldn't tell you what it was. My buddy and I sat there and drooled over it for several minutes when the guy came over. My friend said something to the effect of "wish I could afford one" which I said something like "me too". The seller was standing right there. Hearing that he, instead of walking off, showed us how it worked, answered our stupid questions and let us finger fuck that .50 cal prom queen. If I could have afforded anything at that table I would have bought something from him, and if I ever see him at another show, I certainly will.

Dealers, what one cannot afford today he might tommorow so don't be a snobby asshole.

USMC- a word to the wise. AR15.com will yank you off this site, no doubt. It would probably be prudent to edit your post and delete or XXXXX out the name of the business. We are guests of their business and have to play by their rules. I'm a former grunt myself, so just adapt and overcome.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 7:21:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bcw107:
USMC- a word to the wise. AR15.com will yank you off this site, no doubt. It would probably be prudent to edit your post and delete or XXXXX out the name of the business. We are guests of their business and have to play by their rules. I'm a former grunt myself, so just adapt and overcome.



Yeah, that's the reality, but it doesn't give them the right to treat customers like crap. There are other potential sponsors that are courteous and helpful to their customers.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 7:27:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMCGrunt8541:
Damn, Knightone... that was incredible... almost made me weep.

Seriously, thanks. But the guy who made the insults is entitled to what we are all entitled to - freedom of speech. Besides... he crossed all of it out and wished me a happy birthday. Deep down, he's a good guy. :)

Mark



I know, most of the guys here are great. They are just overly sensitive sometimes. I was directing my post at the general directio of all the bashers. Just didn't like the excessive you-bashing. Seemed like veryone was ganging up on you for nothing really.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 8:00:44 PM EDT
Actually, most feedback was positive and many have had similar circumstances. It is in my opinion that if we talk about such things instead of becoming political panderers (much like the bleeding heart liberal Damovrats), the companies will have no choice but to treat us with respect.

Think of it - over 600 people have read this post. WHen someone is looking for an AR, he (or she, depending how cool she is) might just say, "Oh yeah... Excaliber Arms. He treated some guy like dirt... perhaps I'll try another company with good customer relations..." and move on. The world is a small place and if companies KNOW that people share BOTH good and bad, they will up the customer service OR provide bad service and act rude, like this guy did, and go out of business.

Consumers of all brands of products must DEMAND they be treated with respect and dealt with honestly or they won't purchase the products from the companies that can't do so.

I would love to be sitting here telling you how helpful these people were. How informative they were. The rifles looked down right beautiful and I would have liked to take one home with me. But if someone treats me like that, treats a friend like that, or treats a brother; not by blood but a fellow in arms like that, then I'll have nothing to do with them.

And, to be honest, I wish more people would publish thier bad experiences so I can weigh for myself if I want to do business with them.

If I was reading posts and saw that Shilen (only an example - this is an awesome company that makes one hell of a barrel) was rude, I'd take my money and go to a competitor; probably Hart. There are alternatives and I use them when one is not satisfying.

And if I get kicked off because I want to save someone a bad experience, so be it. I would rather be a member of a board that values the opinions of the members and won't tolerate the companies, whom the members keep in business, treating them in a piss-poor manner.

Thanks and I think you are all a good group. I'm only sorry I've not found this place a long time ago, even if I AM a feeble-minded bolt action guy. :)
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 8:27:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By luger355:
BTW I personally always ask permission weather I see a "don't touch" sign or not.



Good point. Gun people can be sensitive;)

Also if he is a jerk before you buy, imagine the attitude if you have problems post sale.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 10:12:41 PM EDT
I was really suprized at the numbers here who think just because stuff is on display in an open forum it't thiers to do with as they please.

I had thought better of this crowd but I guess we are run of the mill gun show attendees afterall.

Please ask to touch something. It's common courtesy.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 10:16:58 PM EDT
I'm afraid I have to agree with mohecus, some of the replies here are pretty judgmental, and frankly more deserving of being edited than the original post. I think everyone has at some point bumped into a retailer that just managed to really tick them off. USMCGrunt has as much right to bich as anyone. Heck, I asked to look at a custom knife at a gunshow once, and the guy told me that if I was prepared to pay $600 or more for a knife, he'd show it to me. I pulled a damascus, bolster release auto, with mastadon ivory handles, extensive custom engraving, and filework from my pocket and began cleaning under my fingernails with it. When the guy took the knife out of the case, without even looking at it, I told him I wasn't interested anymore, and went on to the next table.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 12:48:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Boxlock:
I'm afraid I have to agree with mohecus, some of the replies here are pretty judgmental, and frankly more deserving of being edited than the original post.



AMEN
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 6:40:25 AM EDT
If you go to a car show, keep your paws off. If you go to a gun show, you expect to fondle and not be treated like a horse's butt. If you show stuff at a gun show, then you should expect people to touch, especially if you are trying to sell product. I expect to look at the quality of your product, see how it feels, and check its functionality. If that's too much to ask, why did you pay for a table?
If a manufacturer or marketer doesn't have "people" people at their table, that's their screw up.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 3:34:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
I would strongly suggest you knock this off. You have made three posts all bashing this business from an account you clearly set up only to do this. I think you're here trying to cause trouble and am referring you to the staff of this board for review.


You the board tattle tale????
GG
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 3:42:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2002 6:19:16 PM EDT by David_Hineline]
Old Tiger no that is not too much to ask of a vendor. Keyword here being To Ask.

Not everyone is familiar with what it might be they are touching.

Many would not know the diff, between an Uberti SAA and an original first Generation Colt.

Same with the Bridgeport 1928 Tommy Gun I am displaying on my table. Perhaps if I put an $9000 price tag on it people won't be so quick to grab it up.
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 6:30:18 PM EDT
Some of this just illustrates the anti's point that guns are seductive and people just can't keep their hands off of them.

Anyway, if you want people to keep their hands off, keep the guns out of reach or under glass. Make some signs that say "ask before you handle" en englais and Spanish or something direct to that effect. That's what you see in jewelry stores along with caveats such as "you break it it's yours".

Personally I'd recommend out of reach or under glass if the items were valuable or personal. The sign would say something like "would you like to see something? just ask!!"

I don't know, it just seems a little simpler than people like to make it.
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 6:41:19 PM EDT
Hey gruntasourousrexis sorry didnt get back toya
Talega 83-90
yes psyc bn
last of the rippers they went to arc amphib recon course after our class
maybe we can get connected through moderator
dont want to post emaildirect
firm beliver in K.I.S.S.
Was only bustng on u grunts always cry
Hell why do you think we did mc crests
to get the 03 hump a lots PISSED to engage and
DESTROY the enemy gota get frustation out on smthng

SEMPER FI
HAPPY BELATED
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 4:36:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/15/2002 4:37:15 PM EDT by cloak-n-carbine]

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
In defense of grunt, I spoke with him in emails and I believe he has no ill intentions. There was some concern, especially with recent problems on the board, that the account might have been set-up to harass a board supporter. In another thread he did identify the seller in question. Anyway, no harm no foul. Grunt seems like a nice enough guy who got a little pissed when he was treated in a less than ideal manner.



Precisely why you, Hiram, and the others who lambasted USMCgrunt, should not jump to conclusions. You know, it's the whole "don't judge lest you be judged" thing. Chill out and let the guy air his grievance.
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