AR Sponsor
Posted: 11/12/2002 3:41:00 AM EDT
 I bought an SP1 from a gun shop. When I got it home to strip it and clean it I found that it had an M16 trigger in it. This SP1 was made in 1975, so I "guess" it could of had the M16 trigger put in there by the factory. All of the inners look brand new, I doubt this SP1 had more than a couple hundred rounds shot through it. I trashed the trigger and replaced it with the correct Clot AR15 trigger. Then I called the gun shop where I bought it to let them know that they sold that SP1 with an M16 trigger. I talked to the "sales manager" he told me that they haden't sold an AR15 in a while. At least he knew what an SP1 is. I tried to explain to him what the AFT thinks about it ans how much trouble he (or I) could have gotten into. He could have cared less. The next week I took the SP1 back to the range to test fire it and to also talk to the owner or manager. No owners were around, so I ended up talking to the floor manager. He kept asking me if the AR15 shot like a machine gun, and if it did I could not use the range.  After I explained it to him three times he sitll did not get it. I even offered to go to the AR15.com website to show him the difference between the parts and go to the legal section on the old web page.He didn't care. Man, I hate people like that, they are supposed to be the "experts" and they don't know schlitz! |
| Maybe we would be better heard politically if more gunowners were educated on the "suttle differences" between a machine gun and a semiautomatic. How can we expect to win battles such as the assault weapons ban when we don't all even really understand what we are talking about. Maybe it would be a good idea for the NRA to try and distribute information to its members or at least put a couple articles in the magazine so that it has all their support when its time to fight. |
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Well just for your information every target shooter who has chosen a JP Ent. brand trigger has put one in thier match AR that will work just fine with full auto componants. I use them in all my match shooting M16s. The trigger is the last M16 part you should be concerned with. It does nothing. |
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I aggree (no one knows crap anymore) I called Natchez Shooters shop yesterday and talked to a guy about a T-2000 trigger group for a 10/22 I had bought. I couldn't explain to him that it was missing the hammer spring and plunger assembly (HE JUST DIDN'T know what I was talking about) I would hope that most 10/22 owners would be able to identify that annoying pain-in-the-ass spring and plunger assembly that allways falls out when the trigger guard is removed for cleaning. |
| I think the problem these days is your dealing with salesmen and businessmen, not "enthusiasts". Most of these people care more about the money, most probably dont even know what they are selling,(dont ya just love it when they cant even get the safety off or lock the action back, especially when it doesnt lock back :) ) and your concerns are at the bottom of the list, after all, your just a stupid customer. It's not like the old days when the owner of the shop could cover just about any question you threw at him and would take the time to listen. Another problem is the constantly changing rules, especially where these types of guns are concerned, hell, even the ATF people cant give you the same answer! It pays to know your stuff, even if the "experts" dont. |
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Alot of the SP1's and early Pre-ban guns came with Full-auto parts. It wasnt illegal then. ATF made a ruling after they were manufactured. Personally, I wouldnt have bothered to tell the gunstore about it, but rather just ground down the full-auto trip on the hammer and kept it as is. Nothing illegal about that. |
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If his trigger is an M16 trigger and the ATF found out he would go to jail for possesion of a machinegun PERIOD! He should be VERY concerned about having an M16 part in his rifle. Even 1 (one) machinegun part in a semi auto is possesion of a machinegun. No it is not. Almost all Colt 9mm bolts are full auto machinegun bolts. Most of the G3 and CTME knockoffs have 3 positions selectors. It's about ability to fire multiple shots with 1 pull of the trigger. Parts that aid in this are subject to scrutiny. The trigger by it'self does not aid in this any way. |
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http://www.printroom.com/_vti_bin/ViewImage.dll?userid=AK103K&album_id=110654&image_id=6&courtesy=1 Hope this comes out. It's copied from the "old" ATF book(cant find the new one). As far as I know, this hasnt changed. Best call the ATF to make sure, if you can get a straight answer. I always wondered about the HK guns, really nothing there to keep you from going full auto. Do the CETME's have the "exact" receiver as the HK's or have they taken this into account? sorry, I cant get the whole thing big enough to read, heres the part about M16 parts. |
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Yes I chatted with the local ATF about this earlier this year... Possesion of all the parts needed to make a full auto is illegal. Drilling a hole for an auto sear even with possesion of no full auto parts is illegal. Having even one M16 part installed in an AR15 is illegal. If you doubt it then just show an ATF agent your full auto carrier in your assembled rifle and ask him if that is legal and see what happens. 
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OMG... not again. he Go to the Legal Section.... there is a very explicit topic on this. BTW... your local BATF agent is usually not up to speed on the NFA laws. They are busy going after illegal gun sales to and by criminals. They defer to NFA Branch in Washington for advice. |
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www.bushmaster.com/shopping/lowers/individual_parts_for_lower_receivers.asp Bushmaster asked the ATF too... |
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After reading the following letter from EMO of the ATF and reading the specific law on NFA firearms I don't see where one part would make it a machine gun. Now I did notice something silly about this letter from EMO. He says if you have an M16 and an AR15 and you have spart parts to make the AR15 fire in automatic you would have two machine guns even if the spare parts were locked away. Bear with me. What if you had a NFA registered M16 and an AR15. The M16 (never been an AR15) flash hider, bayo lug, ability to mount a greande launcher and a threaded barrel. You have complete set of spare AR15 trigger group parts. Does this mean you now have an illegal assault weapon, since you could install these parts into the M16 and turn it into an assault weapon. Something to think about. Shhhh, don't tell Dave over on the legal board, he may drop a letter to the ATF.... DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS WASHINGTON, DC 20226 MAR 25 1999 903050:CHB 3311 Dear Mr. : This refers to your letter in which you asked about possession of spare M-16 machinegun parts by a person who possesses a registered M-16 and a semiautomatic AR-15 rifle. Any weapon which shoots automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger meets the definition of a machinegun in section 5845(b) of the National Firearms Act (NFA). An AR-15 rifle, which is assembled with certain M-16 machinegun fire control components, and which is capable of shooting automatically is a machinegun as defined. The definition of machinegun in section 5845(b) also includes any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. Thus, an AR-15 rifle possessed with separate M-16 machinegun components can meet the definition of a machinegun, if the rifle shoots automatically when the components are installed. The fact that a person lawfully possesses a registered NFA firearm does not grant authorization to possess additional non-registered firearms. A person who possesses a registered M-16 machinegun and a semiautomatic AR-15 rifle and a separate quantity of M-16 machinegun components could be in possession of two machineguns. - 2 - Mr. We would advise any person who possesses an AR-15 rifle not to possess M-16 fire control component. If a person possessed only the M-16 machinegun and spare M-16 fire control components for that machinegun, the person would possess only one machinegun. We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If you have further questions concerning this matter, please contact us. Sincerely yours, Edward M. Owen, Jr. Chief, Firearms Technology Branch |
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