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Posted: 9/24/2002 6:50:48 PM EDT
| I have heard that Bushamster, Colt, and FN are all built to be mil-spec. Is DPMS also built to mil-spec? Thanks. |
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Mil-spec = military specification. The one this that the military does not do is Buy or Use AR-15's. So, in regards to half(or more) of an AR-15, there are no military specifications for the non M-16 parts. If your asking is their parts/rifles are any good? I have a few kits from them, and all have been of quality. |
| While it is true that no commercially available AR15 is truly milspec, some are a lot closer than others. Bushmaster would be the closest, then Colt. FN does not sell rifles commercially. While I would guess DPMS use a lot of milspec parts, they do not use a chrome lined chamber and bores, or 4150 steel in their barrels. Those are two rather important features in a milspec rifle... |
| Rock River can be pretty close. To my knowledge, the primary difference between them and a more mil-spec gun would be the barrel. Rock River offers both the milspec chrome lined barrels and non-spec non-chrome lined barrels. But none of their barrels are mil-spec 4150 steel. |
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hey, just my two little pennies worth. Most US Military stuff is supplied by the LOWEST BIDDER. Very important to remember this. Many civilian products are built to MIL-SPEC. Actually many components are better. MIL-SPEC is a minimum requirement. I have a couple of Motorola radios (HT-750) that meet the MIL-SPEC requirements for radios. There are other radios out there that are better and don't have a MIL-SPEC rating. As for AR-15 / M-16 differences? Well, the full auto bolt carrier & Full auto trigger group are pretty much it. Of course there is the barrel length issue, but I have seen 16" and longer heavy MG upper barrels for sale. Oh yeah..GG&G sell to you and me, as well as the US Gov't. Finally, do you really think Bushmaster changes the steal or milling machines when they cut US MIL-SPEC parts opposed to the stuff they sell us????? -Fuji |
Colt does. They have machine-gun lowers, and semi-auto lowers, and who knows what else... Ever notice how some lower Colt receivers have the holes to add a front quick-disconnect pin (like the military has), and others do not? Also, I believe the millings change depending on burst vs. auto. |
Yes its made by the lowest bidder - do you go and find out which stores sell the same widget for more and buy that one? Or do you look to find the lowest cost for your widget? Remember THEY MUST MEET THE SPECIFICATIONS! As long as they meet the spec they will be plenty durable and accurate (to what the specification indicates - and the spec does indicate such things)
How so? In AR parts you some (like Bushmaster and Colt) that use the proper steel/heat treating/ and finishes that the military uses. You get others that use cheap cast Chineese import parts. Better know your supplier if you can't tell them apart.
Please show us proof how the other compentants are 'better'! I don't see how you can spend LESS and get better than mil-spec.
How are these better? Who has done the testing and what was the testing for?
No they don't - but they do change the assembly a bit to save some $$ on their end (don't get me wrong I love Bushmaster's and have 2 myself). But if you remove the front sight base you will find the barrel is bare in that area. That is because Bushmaster assembles the barrel THEN they phosphate it. Proper Mil-Spec is to phosphate the parts separately then assemble. Is this better? I don't think so, the military doesn't think so - but Bushmaster does. Its a neat example of how you can have otherwise mil-spec components (i.e. the barrel is made to spec, the front sight is made to spec, the coatings are to spec) but when put together the way BM does, its not a mil-spec component. (but it is closer than ANY other MFG - Colt does phosphate separtely - but they no longe line their civilian barrels) |
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Energizer, Yes, I understand that there are additional millings and drillings for a select-fire lower. My point was that they don't use a different machine to do that work. In other words, there isn't a MIL-SPEC milling machine. You start with a forged lower and mill it accordingly. Sorry if I did not make myself clear. -Fuji |
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ok Forest, #1 I never said the lowest bidder meant that the components are junk. #2 Civilian products better than MIL-SPEC. Emerson knives, Strider Knives, ANYTHING from Ed Brown. GG&G in AZ - their parts EXCEED MIL-SPEC. #3 Refer to #2. Oh and I never said that better than MIL-SPEC was cheaper. Matter of fact, I don't even remember commenting on price. #4 Off the top of my head I would venture to say that ICOM makes handsets that are better than my HT-750. I do not believe it has a MIL-SPEC rating, although I could be wrong on this one. I do remember not seeing a rating when I was investigating 2 way radios. #5 Yes, They may change assembly methods, I'll give you that. But as I stated in a post to Energizer, I doubt they have a MIL-SPEC mill to work on MIL-SPEC components. I can refinish your AR that exceeds MIL-SPEC ratings. Actually, almost any gunsmith/refinisher can. Here is one example. Phosphate the parts, then apply a Dupont Teflon S coat. There, done. Better than the MIL-SPEC requirement. Don't believe me, do the research yourself. I even help you out. Start buy doing a search for phosphate finish & corrosion resistance. Then do a search on Dupont Teflon-S coatings. Then search for gunsmiths that put Telfon-S over parkerizing. I will leave this post with a little story. 10 years ago, a good friend of mine made SEAL Team 8. I was happy for him and wanted to get him a gift. I contacted a custom knife maker here in MI. A gentleman by the name of Webster Wood. His knives are amazing. The 7" inch survival knife cost me $275.00 in 1992. The saw teeth on the back of knife are tilted side to side like a real saw blade. The steel had some amazing Rockwell hardness rating. Overall, a superb survival knife. This knife can pierce and cut(using saw teeth) through a 55 gallon drum/aircraft skin/etc.. I asked Webster why he didn't make these things for the military. His response was "They didn't want to pay" Now, he wasn't going to charge $275.00 per knife to the US gov, but, he needed to make more than the $10.00/knife they were willing to pay. You see, MIL-SPEC also means how good can we do it for a reasonable price. The knife I sent my friend is still in use today after 10 years. He loves it & all of his teammates are jealous. It has survived conditions all of the MIL-SPEC issue knives have failed. -Fuji |
Since when? A milspec. is a requirement. Nothing more, nothing less. Depending on what the specification calls for determines the level of precision. Have you ever dealt with sub-safe suppliers? Those are some of the tightest specifications I have ever seen. I think what you are trying to say is many commercial products exceed military specifications. As far as the lowest bidder, that is not always true. Sometimes they go with the highest bidder depending on the circumstances. |
Colt holds a patent on the M4 configuration, and won't license it to anyone, so they "won" the M4 contract by default. They supply the M4, M4A1, and the flattop M16A4. FN Manufacturing, the US subsidy of FN Herstal of Belgium, supplies the M16A2 and M16A3. The only other current AR manufacturer that's delivered complete rifles is Bushmaster, who supplied 3500 M4s during Desert Sheild. Bushmaster doesn't normally bid on military contracts, as they lack the capacity to build guns for the military AND maintain their civilian and police sales. Many AR manufacturers have made TARGET rifles for various military marksmenship teams, but these are not combat rifles, and are not deployable (i.e., used for training/competition only). -Troy |
| I wonder if anyone has the NSNs (National Stock Numbers) for the M16 and M4s. I have a database that can pull the procurement history on them and I'd be glad to post it. I did this on the HKPro site for the Mark 23. Id gives a little insight on how much the Gov pays for this stuff, and it is public info. |
I kindly disagree about Colt... Sear block, large hole and I have read many times on this board they are not chroming their barrels for AR's - call chroming rumor as I have not seen it with my own eyes. The difference betweenteh top 5 pr 10 manufacturers has been lessoned over time. It still seems like each manufacturers still has their little "1 offs" from the real deal. |
One manufacturer is most often associated with producing a Mil-Spec AR-15. The facts are that no manufacturer produces a Mil-Spec AR-15. |
I would doubt that the mil-spec would actually specify a pin size in their requirements. Who cares if you can't place a drop-in auto-sear into the lower and if they use a larger pin? (mine has a small front take-down pin, not sure about the trgger assembly) Is that all you base the "mil-spec" requirements on??? If it was TRULY A COMPLETE MIL-SPEC RIFLE, it would be FULL AUTO or BURST, and I think Colt still uses a large pin in those configurations too... The military still buys them, so the large pins must be "mil-spec"... Point is, Colt semi-auto models are close to mil-spec, just like Bushmaster. |
Actually it does. The Mil-Spec specifies you must follow the related document (i.e. BLUE PRINTS). The Blue Prints specify pin size and materials. So the pin size IS a part of the mil-spec.
Nope Colt has veered off with its out of spec pin sizes, plastic trap doors for the stock, and lack of chrome lining in its civilian offerings. Bushmaster is closest, Armalite is second (because they use 4140 instead of 4150 steel), with Colt being 3rd. |
The drawing would specify all critical dimensions. Look here for the full specification: www.impactsites2000.com/site3/data/m16a2milspec.pdf |
Do you deal with sub-safe specs ?? |
The only thing I am trying to say is that everyone on this thread is taking a simple question and disecting it WAY TOO MUCH. To make a(I hope is is acceptable)statement....as long as you are buying quality parts and they ECEED the standard set by the DOD as MIL-SPEC....you are pretty safe. I don't think there are too many guys/girls on this site that will ever wear out a decent quality AR-15....maybe just here and there items that are expected. USGI mags are expected to last(I think I remember)for about 11,000 rounds before failure. Just site back and think about the guesstimated amount you have fired through yours! |
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Called armalite about two weeks ago on the m15a2 if it was 4140 or 4150 guess what it's 4150!!!hock.gif SEE FOR YOUR SELF!!!#800-336-0184 |
It is a valid question. If you review the milspec. It includes test and inspection methods in addition to specification for manufacturing and tolerances. I would guarantee that Colt and ArmaLite are the only facilities set-up to build product to the milspec. Most companies are too small or do not have the infrastructure to meet MIL-Q-9858A. |
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INFORMATION ABOUT MIL-Q-9858A WHAT DOES "MIL-Q-9858A" MEAN? Fundamentally, MIL-Q-9858A is a set of management (and quality) requirements that are intended to be used by all organizations. "MIL" is an abbreviation for "Military Standard" (i.e.; US Department of Defense standard). The "-Q-" means that this is a standard for Quality, and "9858A" is the specific standard in question. In addition, the requirements within MIL-Q-9858A refer to other documents that are controlled by the U.S. Department of Defense, and these other documents should be considered to be a part of "MIL-Q-9858A" also. WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF MIL-Q-9858A? The fundamental purpose of MIL-Q-9858A is to help organizations maintain high quality in whatever they produce. The term "quality" is intended to apply to both products and services. It includes not only the traditional concept of quality (i.e.; how good the product/process is), but it also includes timeliness of delivery, protection during transportation and storage, ability to perform the intended functions, etc. In fact, MIL-Q-9858A requirements are focused upon satisfying all customers of all products and/or services produced. Note: MIL-Q-9858A requirements were developed prior to the ISO 9000 standards. They are very similar to ISO 9000 requirements. They cover the same areas and have the same intent. WHY WOULD A COMPANY WANT TO MEET MIL-Q-9858A REQUIREMENTS? There are many answers to this question: Some customers (including the U.S. Department of Defense and their contractors) demand that their contractors, subcontractors and suppliers meet these requirements or they will not purchase products or services from them; Since the fundamental purpose of the MIL-Q-9858A requirements is to create high quality (and high quality satisfies customers, and satisfied customers provide more business), it makes good business sense to meet MIL-Q-9858A requirements; The MIL-Q-9858A requirements force sound business practices (that have resulted from many years of trial, error and corrections) to be implemented, thus leading to not only more business, but also to higher profits. Higher profits are attained because sound business practices help to eliminate mistakes (which cause not only poor quality, but also lost profits and dissatisfied customers). |
Tooly, I just recieved an email back from Armalite which has confirmed what I was afraid of. Do you know the name of the person you talked to on the phone at Armalite. Because either who you spoke to was mistaken, or Janet is. Here's the email I got with a name attatched. From : Janet Gilbraith <[email protected]> To : <[email protected]> Subject : internet question Date : Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:59:58 -0500 Yes, Neil we still use 4140. Thanks Janet!!!! JANET GILBRAITH SALES REPRESENTATIVE ARMALITE, INC. |
first of all did not talk to that a**hole I've talk to her before she don't know her a** from her elbow,I've talk to a tech he told me in the M15a2 it is 4150 !!!!! like I said a TECH not some idiot sales rep behind a desk!!!!!!I know they DON'T use 4150 in ALL rifle, but in the M15a2 carbine it is 4150 that's what the TECH told me !!!!! not mad at you neil. |
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there is a guard enginereing unit near here that uses semi rifles with no lugs. the rifles have no auto sear in them. the lugs were not ordered cause guys were bayonetting trees and damaging rifles when on their maneuvers. would these rifles be semi mil-spec. i don't really care what brand my ar is so long as it works. but the some of the closet to sepc will be the sear block colts. after all these were made to be an m16 lower. then had the sear block put in so they could be used for semi. the hole is in the correct location. with mine took out the sex-bolt and put in a push pin. M4 and an M16A2 upper drop on without any problem. |
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Tooly, when I emailed her back to say thank you for the info, I told her about the other thread that is in the Armalite forum. She indicates to me that she went to the top with this. Seriously, Armalite has always been known to use 4140. Like I said, if you have other info, that is great, and I am sincerely interested to know if they upgraded to 4150. But it just doesnt seem that way. Please do let us know if you find out anything new. Here's what I sent her, followed by what she replied: From: Neil B [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 2:01 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: internet question Thank you for your reply. An acquaintence called Armalite and claims he was told that the M15A2 uses 4150. There was a fairly long discussion about it at this link; http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=27&t=138126&page=1 I appreciate your time. -Neil From :Janet Gilbraith <[email protected]> To :Neil B <[email protected]> Subject: RE: internet question Date : Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:07:09 -0500 Just so you know, I went internally for this info. Such as I talked to "GOD" himself. Janet!!!!! JANET GILBRAITH SALES REPRESENTATIVE ARMALITE, INC. |
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Dear Sir, Yes that is true. Thank you! Armalite ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: [email protected] Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 00:22:34 -0400 >I called you guy's and asked if the M15a2 is 4140 or 4150 the tech told me it is 4150 in that rifle can you please confirm this to me please. >THANK YOU VERY MUCH... > This is what came back to me,but I called and talked to a tech again this guy told me it's 4140 ,but it did not matter because something about the steel they use something "ROCKWELL" is as hard as 4150 ! and it is MIL-SPEC hardness.I don't know what to think,if I'm wrong sorry! just all these different answers are pissing me off!!!! now I don't even give a shit anymore... as new yorkez say,forgetaboutit!!!!!...hit me back tell me what you think... |
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Armalite uses the higher grades of Wilson Arms barrel blanks to build their rifles. Wilson Arms does not make any barrel blanks using 4150 steel; all of their chrome-moly barrels are made using 4140 steel. Given that they don't make any lightweight barrels, the use of 4150 steel isn't as critical as it would be with a skinnier barrel. The higher chromium content primarily aids structural strength (think: stiffness) at higher temperatures. This isn't as important with an HBAR as it is with an A1, A2, or M4 barrel profile. Anyway, Colt and Armalite share 2nd place for "Mil-Spec-ness" to me. Some Colt models, such as the Government Models, are definitely closer to Mil-Spec than any Armalite, but compared to the Colt HBARs (which is what they sell the most of), I'd say that the Armalites are closer. It is Colt's wide variation between models that keeps them from solidly occupying 2nd place. If I had to rank the majors in "Mil-Spec-ness," I'd do so thusly: 1. Bushmaster 2. Colt/Armalite 3. Rock River/DPMS 4. Oly/ASA But, this ranking is with the understanding that it is an AVERAGE of that company's models. If you were comparing specific models, the rankings may change a bit. For example, a properly configured Oly could be set up closer to Mil-Spec than, say, a Bushmaster Varminter. -Troy |
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