Posted: 6/9/2008 9:10:36 AM EDT
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Read on a forum about BC proper staking. Below is a comparison of AR's that are properly stake and not. Has this issue been resolved? Here's the link: m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6993 I was thinking of buying an RRA but then stumbled on this realibility issue. |
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yeah, I don't know why RRA, much less those other companys listed can't do a proper staking job. Im waiting for my Entry Tactical, I knew of those before hand its an easy fix to do yourself. RRA as well as many toher companys, don't stake the buffer tube nut either. but thats another easy fix too. I just don't understand how RRA won their fbi/dea contract with gas keys staked like that o_0 but I too would like to know why they can't do a PROPER staking job????? |
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Probably because out of multiple thousands of DEA/FBI rifles delivered, we've never, to my knowledge, had a single key issue. The same holds true with the multiple thousands that we've shipped to foreign militaries, law enforcement agencies, and government agencies. The method we use works. It may not be the method described in the GI manual, but it works and it does so very well. Steve/RRA |
| I really do believe this staking issue is so over-rated....I have looked at my RRA's, all of them, and the staking that is done is more than sufficent, especially when you include the torque value of the screws........all of mine have thousands of rounds thru and all are in good shape |
+1 just people looking for something to complaine about |
Would it be hard to change your staking method to match what people expect just so you don't have to deal with the questions/complaints about it not being properly staked? |
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It isn't a problem of "dealing" with the issue. It goes in spurts when someone reports that their "XYZ" carrier wasn't staked properly, and then a large quantity of "+1ers" chime in too. It doesn't matter that they never tried their rifle the way it was, or that the screws weren't going to move (without the operator's help) in a hundred years, but they immediately restaked their keys with a chisel/flat head screwdriver/etc...We get more back from bad restaking than we do from original staking issues. Such is life. Steve/RRA |
You just contridicted yourself. First it was you know of no issues ever with RRA's staking method. Then you acknowledged there you have had some issues. Steve, don't get me wrong, im not trying to be a pain in the butt, bust yours, or RRA chops. I have a Entry tactical on order, can't wait to get it. You can look at the RRA staking jobs and see none to VERY LITTLE material moved over the screw heads with the way you stake it. It might be 'good enough' but on a $1,000+ rifle good enough just doesn't cut it in my books. Anything worth doing is doing right. You know for a fact people disagree with your way of staking. and theres a potential customer here that is on the ropes over RRA's staking. I just don't see why you all can't move more material over the screw. buy a few MOAKS tools. I hardly think im just trying to start an argument here or anything. What would it do to the warrenty on my rifle if I, or a gunsmith restakes my RRA bolt carrier? |
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Let me ask this question: Do you stake the lug nuts on your truck/car? If any mechanical joint goes though stress cycles, these do.....way more than a key set on a BCG....if you dont believe me, I will show you the calculations Now I am not going to beat this horse to death....but I deal with mechanical joints for a living, all with stress and cycle fatigue 1000's of times greater than a BCG and I can say as far as staking and tie wiring and we only worry when the temperature differential is 1000F.....now the last time I looked, the AR does not get that hot, locally.... I have looked at the RRA stake jobs and I have even tried the break loose torque for the keys and exceed the 200% and no break.....so until I have one fly apart, the stake job on mine will work just fine... Are they staked with the metal deformity like a LMT, no......but the stake job on the RRA will work just fine.....now I may not have the gun time as some of the guys that deal with guns for a living or life, but from a mechanical joint and connection, that I do know about. 77 |
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I certainly did not mean to start an argument here either. I am just looking for my FIRST and LAST AR. It took a while to convince my wife to get a long arm. She's so not into firearms. Basically, will be using this for home defense IF NEEDED SO. Did some research on makers, pricing and reviews by customers and gunsmiths/armorers. My pick was RRA CAR A4 with few up's to add in mind. Budget was $1800. I will start with basic rifle and use extra cash for defense rifle training and ammo. And then work on upgrades later. I am a noob to real rifles....have Going back to improper staking if it causes an issue, I certainly don't want that to happen to me the moment I need my rifle at the very critical moment. I like the RRA CAR A4. If RRA, addresses this one, certainly they will win my business and more other customers.ht THANKS for understanding my POINT. |
Quoted from GOTM4, staff for M4carbine.net. Claims as Virginia Arms Co armorer.
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I think that Steve was saying that they had problems from people attempting to re-stake it themselves and doing so improperly. I could see people potentially pushing too much material outward. If you do not like how it is staked then have it restaked. It is easy to do and can be done pretty quickly. Critics generally don't like how any mfg stakes. |
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DViking... you stated yourself that you are a "noob" to AR's and you apparently are believing everything you read on M4Carbine. I'm surprised you are even thinking about a RRA if you've been indoctrinated on M4carbine.net. According to your "AR Bible at M4Carbine.com" if the AR isn't manufactured in in Hartford, CT it isn't worth looking at. I have two Colt AR's, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy a RRA. In fact I've exchanged messages with Steve about some of their products and I will have a RRA 6.8, a 458 Socom, and a chrome lined mid-length 5.56 in upcoming builds and purchases. Did you notice on M4carbine they just showed pics of staking and didn't do any actual tests to verify their position? I didn't see any 10,000 round torture tests to see if any of these carriers failed. Who cares what the staking looks like if it works, right? Restake your RRA carrier and receiver extension if you're that paranoid. That will take all of 2 minutes to do, and local gunsmiths should be easy to locate if you go that route. Any mechanical device even a Colt or LMT rifle needs maintenence and routine inspections. Inspecting any fasteners should be part of the process to avoid surprises when you do not need a surprise. What you should really do is spend some money taking your wife out as a thanks for the rifle. If she's anti-gun but let you have one anyway, show some love. Better yet, smooze her into going shooting with you. Ease her into it, and I'm sure she'll enjoy it. |
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If it isn't broken, don't fix it. Yes,as with any mechanical device, there can be an occasional failure. Key screws "walking out" just doesn't happen that often, and when torqued properly and retained by whatever method of staking, rarely, if at all. Enough material from the key has to be displaced to impinge on the screws enough to help prevent them from loosening under the violent movement, heat, etc...that the carrier is exposed to. The screws don't have to be multiply mutilated to achieve that retention. If there is more than one method, and they both work, what is correct or incorrect about one or the other? Steve/RRA |
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It's a Tit for Tat with us. I get my rifle and she get's her's, too. hink Thanks for all inputs. |
? The concern about bad restake jobs, is too much material displaced on the sides right? Wouldnt hitting the excess material with a dremel with a fine sanding drum cure that, if there was any displaced on the side? |
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Several issues with restakes...damage to the key, damage to the screws, screws that aren't retorqued properly by those who, for whatever reason, feel the need to disassemble the key from the carrier to "visually inspect the screws", then reinstall them by hand, and then "stake" them without the proper torque being reapplied before doing so, and on and on...even over staking to the point where the screws are never going to be able to removed intact (and don't even go to the point where someone breaks the head off one of both of the screws by getting creative with the use of a chisel as a staking tool....Have a nice weekend everyone. Steve/RRA |
I agree. My wife is a "non-gunny" type. Every time I look at a new gun, she asks, "Don't you already have one of those?" Still, she allows me to pursue my odd little hobby whenever the budget allows. Here's the staking on the carrier key I just received from RRA this spring. Seems more than adequate to my untrained eye. 
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I kidna feel your pain with the liberal wives. My girlfriend of two years, her mommy has molded her, to be very liberal. But granted she went from being very anti-gun before she met me to more open about it. I thought I had her ready to shoot my Springfield XD .45acp Service one day at the range,, but i handed it to her and she was SHAKING she was so scared of it o_0 But im gona have her shoot my ar15 when i get it weither she likes it or not :P but i would never let her say what toys i can have or any thing like that. I told her the first month we dated if she ever made me choose between hunting/fishing and her... she could hit the door. 
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