[ARCHIVED THREAD] - ACR: Why Bushmaster? (Page 1 of 4)
Posted: 2/17/2010 6:31:46 PM EDT
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My statements below are personal opinion and inference so please nobody confuse what I am saying with any official statements by Magpul about ACR pricing or configuration.
I see people are now trying to apply pressure on Magpul to influence Bushmaster's decisions around the marketing of this weapons system. Don't try to make this Magpul's problem. When Magpul designed the Masada, they designed the rifle to provide an unfair advantage for our troops in harms way putting boot to ass for America. They didn't design it to be a cool toy for civilians. Magpul sold the Masada to a Cerberus company because they knew that the only way that the rifle could ever be sold as a replacement for the AR platform to the military is if it was produced by a manufacturer with the proven capacity to meet their contracted volume levels. BIG contract levels. Small suppliers with superb products have a history of failing under the weight of large .mil contracts and these days, the small guys don't have a snowball's chance of winning a MAJOR contract because of it. The goal was noble: Make our warfighters more effective. The path they had to take to achieve that goal had some regrettable consequences to the consumer market (retarded marketing, high pricing, "enhancements" by committee). I still believe in the platform but will not be buying until I can get it how I want it for a price I think is fair. I believe that will happen, but it will take some time for consumer pressures to catch up to their marketing mistakes. In the mean time, I hope Remington is dialing the bitch in right and putting a sales blitzkrieg on Big Army and the Corps. Always Be Closing. Despite the fact that we all feel like this was our baby that got put in a surrogate momma who then smoked a lot of weed while pregnant and dressed the baby funny after it was born, the fact is, it was never our baby to begin with. This baby was conceived as a weapon of war for our armed forces, and they damn well better get it the way they want it. If we get a civvy version after their needs are met, I will be the happiest shooter on the line. I hope that enough time has passed now for everyone to look at this situation for what it is. I have, and I hope the rest of you can for yourself. I have decided to stop reading the ACR hate threads. The amusement peaked with Hitler anyway. The stupid mistakes will be fixed in future versions. Buy the Mod 0 if you have the money and can't wait. Chicks will dig you, men will want to be you. Sometimes envy will take a nasty turn, but you'll be the guy that gets to clean it at home after you play with it, so the hate will never sting. Just smile and laugh "yeah, it sucks to be me". I'll laugh with you. Magpul: You made a beautiful rifle and I hope your goals of equipping American soldiers with the finest combat rifle of our age succeeds. Carry on. |
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Quoted:I see people are now trying to apply pressure on Magpul to influence Bushmaster's decisions around the marketing of this weapons system.
Don't try to make this Magpul's problem. It is thier problem. They put thier name and reputation on the line with the ACR. They: Designed it. Liscensed the design to a manufacturer. Make components for the end product (which makes the ACR an ongoing a business partnership with Bushmaster). Dispensed what they offered as official information about the ACR, right up till the shit hit the fan. Etc. I repeat, it's partly their problem and responsibility. |
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I see people are now trying to apply pressure on Magpul to influence Bushmaster's decisions around the marketing of this weapons system. Don't try to make this Magpul's problem. Without being too presumpterous, I can only assume you're referring to me and my thread calling for help or at least answers from Magpul. Therefor, I feel obliged to defend my position and attempt to clarify my intentions. I think we can agree that Magpul designed a fantastic weapon system in the form of the Masada. I also think we can agree that they fully intended on their weapon system being a superior choice for our brave service men and women in harms way. However, they also clearly intended on getting their weapon into the hands of the American public (just watch Magpul's 2008 SHOT video and listen to what Drake says towards the end). The fact of the matter is that Bushmaster has completely betrayed Magpul's vision of what the Masada/ACR was intended to be, and they should be held accountable. Both by us, the potential customers that they've alienated, and by Magpul who trusted them to bring their vision to life better than they could. I don't think it is unreasonable in the slightest to ask Magpul to do so if possible, or to explain to us why if it is not. |
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Quoted:I think we can agree that Magpul designed a fantastic weapon system in the form of the Masada.
Well, according to the official Bushmaster representative... the Masada was NOT a properly designed rifle, it was not "combat ready." So Bushmaster essentially blamed Magpul, and the Masada design, for cost overruns that lead to the current MSRP. According to Bushmaster anyways. Hey, since they were the ones willing to talk maybe that's the truth? ;) |
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Quoted:I think we can agree that Magpul designed a fantastic weapon system in the form of the Masada.
Well, according to the official Bushmaster representative... the Masada was NOT a properly designed rifle, it was not "combat ready." So Bushmaster essentially blamed Magpul, and the Masada design, for cost overruns that lead to the current MSRP. According to Bushmaster anyways. Hey, since they were the ones willing to talk maybe that's the truth? ;) True, but I don't believe for a second that that was actually the case. If you ask me, that whole statement is just a bunch of Bushmaster bullshit that doesn't hold up to the facts. The fact is the Masada was tested over a period of roughly two years (correct me if I'm wrong pls) and there was no indication that is was not ready for production by at least January 2008. It was also lighter weight, had better features, and was going to cost signicantly less back then too, which made it a much more MARKETABLE rifle. Unfortunately, marketability seems to be a concept that is completely lost on Bushmaster. 
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Quoted:
My statements below are personal opinion and inference so please nobody confuse what I am saying with any official statements by Magpul about ACR pricing or configuration. I see people are now trying to apply pressure on Magpul to influence Bushmaster's decisions around the marketing of this weapons system. Don't try to make this Magpul's problem. When Magpul designed the Masada, they designed the rifle to provide an unfair advantage for our troops in harms way putting boot to ass for America. They didn't design it to be a cool toy for civilians. Magpul sold the Masada to a Cerberus company because they knew that the only way that the rifle could ever be sold as a replacement for the AR platform to the military is if it was produced by a manufacturer with the proven capacity to meet their contracted volume levels. BIG contract levels. Small suppliers with superb products have a history of failing under the weight of large .mil contracts and these days, the small guys don't have a snowball's chance of winning a MAJOR contract because of it. The goal was noble: Make our warfighters more effective. The path they had to take to achieve that goal had some regrettable consequences to the consumer market (retarded marketing, high pricing, "enhancements" by committee). I still believe in the platform but will not be buying until I can get it how I want it for a price I think is fair. I believe that will happen, but it will take some time for consumer pressures to catch up to their marketing mistakes. In the mean time, I hope Remington is dialing the bitch in right and putting a sales blitzkrieg on Big Army and the Corps. Always Be Closing. Despite the fact that we all feel like this was our baby that got put in a surrogate momma who then smoked a lot of weed while pregnant and dressed the baby funny after it was born, the fact is, it was never our baby to begin with. This baby was conceived as a weapon of war for our armed forces, and they damn well better get it the way they want it. If we get a civvy version after their needs are met, I will be the happiest shooter on the line. I hope that enough time has passed now for everyone to look at this situation for what it is. I have, and I hope the rest of you can for yourself. I have decided to stop reading the ACR hate threads. The amusement peaked with Hitler anyway. The stupid mistakes will be fixed in future versions. Buy the Mod 0 if you have the money and can't wait. Chicks will dig you, men will want to be you. Sometimes envy will take a nasty turn, but you'll be the guy that gets to clean it at home after you play with it, so the hate will never sting. Just smile and laugh "yeah, it sucks to be me". I'll laugh with you. Magpul: You made a beautiful rifle and I hope your goals of equipping American soldiers with the finest combat rifle of our age succeeds. Carry on. You know the Masada and the ACR are nothing alike right? The Masada was an Ar-180 based caliber convertible rifle, being marketed to civilians years ago. Now it's not. I wanted a Masada not an abortion. |
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Quoted:I think we can agree that Magpul designed a fantastic weapon system in the form of the Masada.
Well, according to the official Bushmaster representative... the Masada was NOT a properly designed rifle, it was not "combat ready." So Bushmaster essentially blamed Magpul, and the Masada design, for cost overruns that lead to the current MSRP. According to Bushmaster anyways. Hey, since they were the ones willing to talk maybe that's the truth? ;) True, but I don't believe for a second that that was actually the case. If you ask me, that whole statement is just a bunch of Bushmaster bullshit that doesn't hold up to the facts. The fact is the Masada was tested over a period of roughly two years (correct me if I'm wrong pls) and there was no indication that is was not ready for production by at least January 2008. How do you know this? Did you test the rifle? Did you run it through torture tests? There is a lot that we don't know, and there are a lot of assumptions being thrown around. |
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Quoted:I think we can agree that Magpul designed a fantastic weapon system in the form of the Masada.
Well, according to the official Bushmaster representative... the Masada was NOT a properly designed rifle, it was not "combat ready." So Bushmaster essentially blamed Magpul, and the Masada design, for cost overruns that lead to the current MSRP. According to Bushmaster anyways. Hey, since they were the ones willing to talk maybe that's the truth? ;) True, but I don't believe for a second that that was actually the case. If you ask me, that whole statement is just a bunch of Bushmaster bullshit that doesn't hold up to the facts. The fact is the Masada was tested over a period of roughly two years (correct me if I'm wrong pls) and there was no indication that is was not ready for production by at least January 2008. How do you know this? Did you test the rifle? Did you run it through torture tests? There is a lot that we don't know, and there are a lot of assumptions being thrown around. I do not know this for a fact, but Magpul seemed to think the rifle was ready for production in second quarter 2008, and I would like to think the company that designed it (and many other top-notch products) would have a better idea of whether or not it was ready for production. |
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Quoted:I think we can agree that Magpul designed a fantastic weapon system in the form of the Masada.
Well, according to the official Bushmaster representative... the Masada was NOT a properly designed rifle, it was not "combat ready." So Bushmaster essentially blamed Magpul, and the Masada design, for cost overruns that lead to the current MSRP. According to Bushmaster anyways. Hey, since they were the ones willing to talk maybe that's the truth? ;) True, but I don't believe for a second that that was actually the case. If you ask me, that whole statement is just a bunch of Bushmaster bullshit that doesn't hold up to the facts. The fact is the Masada was tested over a period of roughly two years (correct me if I'm wrong pls) and there was no indication that is was not ready for production by at least January 2008. How do you know this? Did you test the rifle? Did you run it through torture tests? There is a lot that we don't know, and there are a lot of assumptions being thrown around. Well gee, if Magpul grew a pair and made some statements, then we would not have to operate on conjecture and assumptions. AR15.com in general tends to have the ethics of telling people to "go talk to the manufacture." Well in this case there's a joint venture with one manufacture talking and the other remaining suspiciously silent. The one that's talking is blaming the one that isn't. You do the math. |
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Quoted:I think we can agree that Magpul designed a fantastic weapon system in the form of the Masada.
Well, according to the official Bushmaster representative... the Masada was NOT a properly designed rifle, it was not "combat ready." So Bushmaster essentially blamed Magpul, and the Masada design, for cost overruns that lead to the current MSRP. According to Bushmaster anyways. Hey, since they were the ones willing to talk maybe that's the truth? ;) True, but I don't believe for a second that that was actually the case. If you ask me, that whole statement is just a bunch of Bushmaster bullshit that doesn't hold up to the facts. The fact is the Masada was tested over a period of roughly two years (correct me if I'm wrong pls) and there was no indication that is was not ready for production by at least January 2008. How do you know this? Did you test the rifle? Did you run it through torture tests? There is a lot that we don't know, and there are a lot of assumptions being thrown around. I do not know this for a fact, but Magpul seemed to think the rifle was ready for production in second quarter 2008, and I would like to think the company that designed it (and many other top-notch products) would have a better idea of whether or not it was ready for production. That is so reasonable and logical, but who knows if it's true until Magpul actually speaks. Bushmaster/Remington does have VASTLY more experience designing and manufacturing firearms. Magpul = infant Bushmaster/Remington = adult (in regards to the scale, scope, experience, and longevity of the companies) |
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Quoted:I think we can agree that Magpul designed a fantastic weapon system in the form of the Masada.
Well, according to the official Bushmaster representative... the Masada was NOT a properly designed rifle, it was not "combat ready." So Bushmaster essentially blamed Magpul, and the Masada design, for cost overruns that lead to the current MSRP. According to Bushmaster anyways. Hey, since they were the ones willing to talk maybe that's the truth? ;) True, but I don't believe for a second that that was actually the case. If you ask me, that whole statement is just a bunch of Bushmaster bullshit that doesn't hold up to the facts. The fact is the Masada was tested over a period of roughly two years (correct me if I'm wrong pls) and there was no indication that is was not ready for production by at least January 2008. How do you know this? Did you test the rifle? Did you run it through torture tests? There is a lot that we don't know, and there are a lot of assumptions being thrown around. Well gee, if Magpul grew a pair and made some statements, then we would not have to operate on conjecture and assumptions. AR15.com in general tends to have the ethics of telling people to "go talk to the manufacture." Well in this case there's a joint venture with one manufacture talking and the other remaining suspiciously silent. The one that's talking is blaming the one that isn't. You do the math. That still does not change the fact that most of what has been said is conjecture. There are a litany of reasons why Magpul might not want to comment right now, or might not want to comment about the development process. Also, why would they want to enter the fray? It would be a shitstorm they cannot win. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. |
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I do find it interesting that so many people hold Magpul non-culpable.
Magpul picked the production company. Any way you cut it, Magpul made the bad business decision that led to the what appears to be the failure of their product. You can say Bushmaster screwed them, but Magpul could have chosen a lot of other directions to take for production of their gun. |
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The one thing that bugs me about magpul, is that they grew them self's as a company "of the people/boards" I remember the threads when they were designing the MAID grip and taking direct design input from these very boards, then they blew up, and now they completely ignore us all together... I'm still a fan, I will still buy their products and i honestly have no problem with the msrp of the ACR I understand inovation costs money and am willing to pay for it.... but treating the people/boards as if we are somehow the problem, or should be kept in the dark... is just lame. |
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The one thing that bugs me about magpul, is that they grew them self's as a company "of the people/boards" I remember the threads when they were designing the MAID grip and taking direct design input from these very boards, then they blew up, and now they completely ignore us all together... I'm still a fan, I will still buy their products and i honestly have no problem with the msrp of the ACR I understand inovation costs money and am willing to pay for it.... but treating the people/boards as if we are somehow the problem, or should be kept in the dark... is just lame. While we have not made comment on the ACR since SHOT Show (and I will not at this time), how do you figure we "completely ignore us all together" when it comes to our products? And when have we ever even come close to intimating that the consumer is "somehow the problem"? 
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The one thing that bugs me about magpul, is that they grew them self's as a company "of the people/boards" I remember the threads when they were designing the MAID grip and taking direct design input from these very boards, then they blew up, and now they completely ignore us all together... I'm still a fan, I will still buy their products and i honestly have no problem with the msrp of the ACR I understand inovation costs money and am willing to pay for it.... but treating the people/boards as if we are somehow the problem, or should be kept in the dark... is just lame. While we have not made comment on the ACR since SHOT Show (and I will not at this time), how do you figure we "completely ignore us all together" when it comes to our products? And when have we ever even come close to intimating that the consumer is "somehow the problem"?
Magpul dude, This may not be the way you as a company see the ACR situation, but anal A-nus is correct: this is the way WE (a big number of possible buyers) see Bushmaster and Magpul. We are just asking for a simple comment and explanation (informative wise) from you. Clearly nobody here cares for BM, we all want to know YOUR side of the story. Respectfuly, Just a fan and Magpul products owner. |
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The one thing that bugs me about magpul, is that they grew them self's as a company "of the people/boards" I remember the threads when they were designing the MAID grip and taking direct design input from these very boards, then they blew up, and now they completely ignore us all together... I'm still a fan, I will still buy their products and i honestly have no problem with the msrp of the ACR I understand inovation costs money and am willing to pay for it.... but treating the people/boards as if we are somehow the problem, or should be kept in the dark... is just lame. While we have not made comment on the ACR since SHOT Show (and I will not at this time), how do you figure we "completely ignore us all together" when it comes to our products? And when have we ever even come close to intimating that the consumer is "somehow the problem"?
Magpul dude, This may not be the way you as a company see the ACR situation, but anal A-nus is correct: this is the way WE (a big number of possible buyers) see Bushmaster and Magpul. We are just asking for a simple comment and explanation (informative wise) from you. Clearly nobody here cares for BM, we all want to know YOUR side of the story. Respectfuly, Just a fan and Magpul products owner. yup, Justin, the main problem with you guys not saying anything is Bushmaster clearly has NO PROBLEM talking about it. I was told flat out by the Bushmaster rep at SHOT that YOU are the reason for the pricing debacle by giving BM a rifle that was not "ready for contracts" and therefore BM had to "fix" the problems by doing revision after revision driving up the cost. I cannot for the life of me figure out why you guys are refusing to tell your fan base at least something. I'm pretty sure that is what the previous poster is talking about, you guys have always been awesome in your communication with us and now after the biggest product release in your company's history, all we hear are crickets. And my question to all the fan boys who are saying its a non-disclosure agreement, tell me this, why doesn't this so called "agreement" apply to Bushmaster, because they won't shut up about it (blaming Magpul that is) |
| If you really supported the company, I imagine you would let them forget about it and leave them alone. It was obviously a move they made thinking it would turn out best for everyone, otherwise why would they do it? It is a business afterall right? Anyway, if you had a buddy who dated some tramp, who you knew to be a tramp, and if she fucked him over,would you constantly bash him for an explanation on why he did it like a nagging wife or would you let your buddy just forget about it and buy him a fucking beer? Relax, Magpul loves us, they know where they came from, they give back, bitch at BM and I'm sure Magpul will even appreciate it. I've worked a few "inter-company" engineering/technology companies and it never works. BM "knows everything" because they are big boys, and frown upon Magpul's design, which when they see it, they're so pissed they couldn't have thought of it, they put on their "big boy" hat and fucking trash a beautiful design to put THEIR stamp on it just like fucking Howard Roarks low economy building housing plan. |
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Quoted:
My statements below are personal opinion and inference so please nobody confuse what I am saying with any official statements by Magpul about ACR pricing or configuration. I see people are now trying to apply pressure on Magpul to influence Bushmaster's decisions around the marketing of this weapons system. Don't try to make this Magpul's problem. When Magpul designed the Masada, they designed the rifle to provide an unfair advantage for our troops in harms way putting boot to ass for America. They didn't design it to be a cool toy for civilians. Magpul sold the Masada to a Cerberus company because they knew that the only way that the rifle could ever be sold as a replacement for the AR platform to the military is if it was produced by a manufacturer with the proven capacity to meet their contracted volume levels. BIG contract levels. Small suppliers with superb products have a history of failing under the weight of large .mil contracts and these days, the small guys don't have a snowball's chance of winning a MAJOR contract because of it. The goal was noble: Make our warfighters more effective. The path they had to take to achieve that goal had some regrettable consequences to the consumer market (retarded marketing, high pricing, "enhancements" by committee). I still believe in the platform but will not be buying until I can get it how I want it for a price I think is fair. I believe that will happen, but it will take some time for consumer pressures to catch up to their marketing mistakes. In the mean time, I hope Remington is dialing the bitch in right and putting a sales blitzkrieg on Big Army and the Corps. Always Be Closing. Despite the fact that we all feel like this was our baby that got put in a surrogate momma who then smoked a lot of weed while pregnant and dressed the baby funny after it was born, the fact is, it was never our baby to begin with. This baby was conceived as a weapon of war for our armed forces, and they damn well better get it the way they want it. If we get a civvy version after their needs are met, I will be the happiest shooter on the line. I hope that enough time has passed now for everyone to look at this situation for what it is. I have, and I hope the rest of you can for yourself. I have decided to stop reading the ACR hate threads. The amusement peaked with Hitler anyway. The stupid mistakes will be fixed in future versions. Buy the Mod 0 if you have the money and can't wait. Chicks will dig you, men will want to be you. Sometimes envy will take a nasty turn, but you'll be the guy that gets to clean it at home after you play with it, so the hate will never sting. Just smile and laugh "yeah, it sucks to be me". I'll laugh with you. Magpul: You made a beautiful rifle and I hope your goals of equipping American soldiers with the finest combat rifle of our age succeeds. Carry on. Good Lord ! An intelligent and cogent post regarding the ACR ! I would just add one thing as far as the BM vs Remington MPD guns. They are the same. Same folks, same tooling,same production line in North Texas. The only diifference is the name stamped on the side. That's direct from the Freedom group folks. I hope to see that production line in the next few months too. And while I agree with you, is the ACR really a better weapons sytem than the M-16 ? Until someone convinces me, I just don't see it. Most of all, I hope you are right about the ACR CDI factor. And I'm with you, I 'm leaving the hate posts behind. Things are a lot nicer over on the ACR forum. J |
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Oh yeah ! One more thing....
maybe the reason no one at Magpul or Bushmaster has anything to say on these threads is because they are so busy cranking out ACR's and magpul's accessories! 
As a dealer, I am REALLY looking forward to the sales the ACR system will generate this year. The "regular guy " , non-arfcom crowd is very amped about the ACR release. It's really going to suck if the distributors don't get the product in good numbers.....kind of like other neat magpul stuff. 
J |
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Oh yeah ! One more thing.... maybe the reason no one at Magpul or Bushmaster has anything to say on these threads is because they are so busy cranking out ACR's and magpul's accessories!
As a dealer, I am REALLY looking forward to the sales the ACR system will generate this year. The "regular guy " , non-arfcom crowd is very amped about the ACR release. It's really going to suck if the distributors don't get the product in good numbers.....kind of like other neat magpul stuff.
J Correct! In fact, the "regular guy" (non arfcommer) is the one who goes and buy a Bushmaster AR in the first place. This is the "uneducated" crowd and sadly they are the vast majority. This is why BM offered a 1/9 bbl for the ACR, isnt it? You expose these "regular guys" to a week of intensive arfcom and they sell their BM crap AR as soon as they can (in fact to another uneducated regular guy) and begin to look for the little details: 1/7 twist, MP tested bolts, cold hammer forged, milspec buffer tubes, correct stalking jobs, F marked FSB, and so on... |
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Quoted: Quoted: The one thing that bugs me about magpul, is that they grew them self's as a company "of the people/boards" I remember the threads when they were designing the MAID grip and taking direct design input from these very boards, then they blew up, and now they completely ignore us all together... I'm still a fan, I will still buy their products and i honestly have no problem with the msrp of the ACR I understand inovation costs money and am willing to pay for it.... but treating the people/boards as if we are somehow the problem, or should be kept in the dark... is just lame. While we have not made comment on the ACR since SHOT Show (and I will not at this time), how do you figure we "completely ignore us all together" when it comes to our products? And when have we ever even come close to intimating that the consumer is "somehow the problem"? You can't deny that Magpul went from actively involving/seeking public/board input, to a boilerplate response of "we will give no info at this time about any products" |
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I thought they changed to that response when ARFCOMmers started acting like asses and bitching about the extending timelines for the "vaporware" Masada.
As much as people gripe here and repeat themselves and others time and again, I am surprised they respond to anything other than pasting a standard response. |
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The one thing that bugs me about magpul, is that they grew them self's as a company "of the people/boards" I remember the threads when they were designing the MAID grip and taking direct design input from these very boards, then they blew up, and now they completely ignore us all together... I'm still a fan, I will still buy their products and i honestly have no problem with the msrp of the ACR I understand inovation costs money and am willing to pay for it.... but treating the people/boards as if we are somehow the problem, or should be kept in the dark... is just lame. While we have not made comment on the ACR since SHOT Show (and I will not at this time), how do you figure we "completely ignore us all together" when it comes to our products? And when have we ever even come close to intimating that the consumer is "somehow the problem"?
You can't deny that Magpul went from actively involving/seeking public/board input, to a boilerplate response of "we will give no info at this time about any products"
In fact I can deny that. Please see this post from last December: Magpul, new product announcement inside! Specifically note the part near the end of Drake's post where we sent out FREE samples to garner public input: "In an effort to receive feedback from the general population on the AFG Magpul would like to offer a T&E AFG to the first 30 posters in this thread. All we ask for in return is that you install the AFG, give it a shot and post pics and opinions on the AFG in the forum. If you’re one of the first 30 posters in this thread and are interested in receiving a free sample and are willing to report on your thoughts send an email to ============= containing the following..." BTW We posted this offer on other forums as well... The famous Drake quote of, "We are not releasing any information on products that may or may not be in the works. We're always looking for new ways to improve on existing products and exploring boundaries of new ideas." comes from that we've learned over the years that when we provide information on projects we have in the works people get whipped up in to such a frenzy that we ultimately get blamed for creating marketing "hype", when all we really did was make a post or two or short video about a potential new product. Any hype about any of our products comes from the consumer, not from Magpul. Examples being the PDR or Massoud and especially the Masada and FMG9. When we announce new products these days it is because there is a definite plan for their production and we have a pretty good ETA for their release. Regarding the Bushmaster ACR, I ask that you all please be patient. IF we post something it will be at our discretion and it will most likely be a general statement. We will NOT get caught up in the diatribe that is so rampantly thrown around these forums. |
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Quoted:Regarding the Bushmaster ACR, I ask that you all please be patient. IF we post something it will be at our discretion and it will most likely be a general statement. We will NOT get caught up in the diatribe that is so rampantly thrown around these forums.
So much for the NDA argument. |
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Quoted: We will NOT get caught up in the diatribe that is so rampantly thrown around these forums. Justin, What starts out as legitimate questions and concerns soon turns into diatribe when ignored or met with weak answers. I look forward to Magpul finally speaking up and hope that it will improve my recent distrust in them. Regards. |
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The one thing that bugs me about magpul, is that they grew them self's as a company "of the people/boards" I remember the threads when they were designing the MAID grip and taking direct design input from these very boards, then they blew up, and now they completely ignore us all together... I'm still a fan, I will still buy their products and i honestly have no problem with the msrp of the ACR I understand inovation costs money and am willing to pay for it.... but treating the people/boards as if we are somehow the problem, or should be kept in the dark... is just lame. While we have not made comment on the ACR since SHOT Show (and I will not at this time), how do you figure we "completely ignore us all together" when it comes to our products? And when have we ever even come close to intimating that the consumer is "somehow the problem"?
Magpul dude, This may not be the way you as a company see the ACR situation, but anal A-nus is correct: this is the way WE (a big number of possible buyers) see Bushmaster and Magpul. We are just asking for a simple comment and explanation (informative wise) from you. Clearly nobody here cares for BM, we all want to know YOUR side of the story. Respectfuly, Just a fan and Magpul products owner. yup, Justin, the main problem with you guys not saying anything is Bushmaster clearly has NO PROBLEM talking about it. I was told flat out by the Bushmaster rep at SHOT that YOU are the reason for the pricing debacle by giving BM a rifle that was not "ready for contracts" and therefore BM had to "fix" the problems by doing revision after revision driving up the cost. I cannot for the life of me figure out why you guys are refusing to tell your fan base at least something. I'm pretty sure that is what the previous poster is talking about, you guys have always been awesome in your communication with us and now after the biggest product release in your company's history, all we hear are crickets. And my question to all the fan boys who are saying its a non-disclosure agreement, tell me this, why doesn't this so called "agreement" apply to Bushmaster, because they won't shut up about it (blaming Magpul that is) anyone can jump into the fray and start slinging mud in every direction, but it takes a real man to keep his mouth shut, to keep doing what he's supposed to be doing, and to refuse the reciprocal blame game all while catching crap from everyone. |
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Quoted: You're right, the way the AFG was debut is a great example of the Magpul that I'm a fan of, The hype surrounding PDR, Massoud, Masada and FMG9, comes down to managing expectations, and realizing that just because some people over react and are douche bags online isn't a good reason to "forsake" the many more loyal and respectful fans that want to be involved constructively. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The one thing that bugs me about magpul, is that they grew them self's as a company "of the people/boards" I remember the threads when they were designing the MAID grip and taking direct design input from these very boards, then they blew up, and now they completely ignore us all together... I'm still a fan, I will still buy their products and i honestly have no problem with the msrp of the ACR I understand inovation costs money and am willing to pay for it.... but treating the people/boards as if we are somehow the problem, or should be kept in the dark... is just lame. While we have not made comment on the ACR since SHOT Show (and I will not at this time), how do you figure we "completely ignore us all together" when it comes to our products? And when have we ever even come close to intimating that the consumer is "somehow the problem"? You can't deny that Magpul went from actively involving/seeking public/board input, to a boilerplate response of "we will give no info at this time about any products" In fact I can deny that. Please see this post from last December: Magpul, new product announcement inside! Specifically note the part near the end of Drake's post where we sent out FREE samples to garner public input: "In an effort to receive feedback from the general population on the AFG Magpul would like to offer a T&E AFG to the first 30 posters in this thread. All we ask for in return is that you install the AFG, give it a shot and post pics and opinions on the AFG in the forum. If you’re one of the first 30 posters in this thread and are interested in receiving a free sample and are willing to report on your thoughts send an email to ============= containing the following..." BTW We posted this offer on other forums as well... The famous Drake quote of, "We are not releasing any information on products that may or may not be in the works. We're always looking for new ways to improve on existing products and exploring boundaries of new ideas." comes from that we've learned over the years that when we provide information on projects we have in the works people get whipped up in to such a frenzy that we ultimately get blamed for creating marketing "hype", when all we really did was make a post or two or short video about a potential new product. Any hype about any of our products comes from the consumer, not from Magpul. Examples being the PDR or Massoud and especially the Masada and FMG9. When we announce new products these days it is because there is a definite plan for their production and we have a pretty good ETA for their release. Regarding the Bushmaster ACR, I ask that you all please be patient. IF we post something it will be at our discretion and it will most likely be a general statement. We will NOT get caught up in the diatribe that is so rampantly thrown around these forums. |
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We will NOT get caught up in the diatribe that is so rampantly thrown around these forums. Justin, What starts out as legitimate questions and concerns soon turns into diatribe when ignored or met with weak answers. I look forward to Magpul finally speaking up and hope that it will improve my recent distrust in them. Regards. +1 |
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These guys could make a rail mounted Magpul T.U.R.D. (Tactical Useless Rail Device) and fools would buy it. The first version of the T.U.R.D seen would be shown in cool colors that will only be given to certain people to strategically post pictures on internet forms. We will be told these colors will be available but will never see them. It will be seen but not discussed in the next Magpul Dynamics video "Art of tactical toilet operations video" sample on you tube. The sample will show Costa throwing himself on a feces covered Greyhound bus station bathroom floor engaging multiple targets with a duel T.U.R.D. mount. Haley will be seen in the video fighting his way to the exit while touching each urine stained covered toilet stall door before each string of fire. A thread will be started, the thread will feature more pictures of the T.U.R.D. in more cool colors. We will be told again these colors will be available but for now we can only get Black and FDE.. The Magpul fan boys will post "Do want" and "I will take 5 in FDE." The Magpul haters will call everyone that wants one stupid. The fanboys will tell the haters they are dumb and if they don't have a T.U.R.D. they will die in any form of a gunfight. We will have a spin off thread asking what kind of pants Costa and Haley were wearing in the video. This will trigger he Magpul homos to discuss how they would like to have prison style sex with Haley on the feces covered Greyhound bus station floor... and so on. |
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These guys could make a rail mounted Magpul T.U.R.D. (Tactical Useless Rail Device) and fools would buy it. The first version of the T.U.R.D seen would be shown in cool colors that will only be given to certain people to strategically post pictures on internet forms. We will be told these colors will be available but will never see them. It will be seen but not discussed in the next Magpul Dynamics video "Art of tactical toilet operations video" sample on you tube. The sample will show Costa throwing himself on a feces covered Greyhound bus station bathroom floor engaging multiple targets with a duel T.U.R.D. mount. Haley will be seen in the video fighting his way to the exit while touching each urine stained covered toilet stall door before each string of fire. A thread will be started, the thread will feature more pictures of the T.U.R.D. in more cool colors. We will be told again these colors will be available but for now we can only get Black and FDE.. The Magpul fan boys will post "Do want" and "I will take 5 in FDE." The Magpul haters will call everyone that wants one stupid. The fanboys will tell the haters they are dumb and if they don't have a T.U.R.D. they will die in any form of a gunfight. We will have a spin off thread asking what kind of pants Costa and Haley were wearing in the video. This will trigger he Magpul homos to discuss how they would like to have prison style sex with Haley on the feces covered Greyhound bus station floor... and so on. disturbing, but sadly, it does decribe the fanboy element surrounding magpul. They are a marketing machine. |
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We will never betray the brand. It's one of core values period. You won't see us creating products just to slap our name on them to make a buck. Some will argue the iphone case, BAD, AFG are fan boy kit. Tell that to the individual that does not want to pay $50 for a phone case, ours will be $10 or the Tier 1 units running BAD's and AFG's and looking for anything that will increase their survivability. We build kit with purpose for the war fighter and will continue to look for ways to fill needs of these individuals. Don't hate on Magpul because Civilians want to use the same kit the pro's do.
Back on topic......... |
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We will never betray the brand. It's one of core values period. You won't see us creating products just to slap our name on them to make a buck. Some will argue the iphone case, BAD, AFG are fan boy kit. Tell that to the individual that does not want to pay $50 for a phone case, ours will be $10 or the Tier 1 units running BAD's and AFG's and looking for anything that will increase their survivability. We build kit with purpose for the war fighter and will continue to look for ways to fill needs of these individuals. Don't hate on Magpul because Civilians want to use the same kit the pro's do. Back on topic......... See, is it really all that hard to make a comment on a ACR thread? Now if you'd just include, you know, actual comments on the ACR it'd be swell. It might start to cover the sting of what is starting to look like betray of your customer base. |
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Do you really think it's going to satisfy anyone if we comment? For the most part the ARFcom crowd is begging for reasons to bash us. We'll pass. What can we say? Damned if we do damned if we don't. I could spend all day here defending Magpul. I (Magpul) have been called a liar, a cheat, a con. I understand that nothing I say will satisfy the masses. I'm happy doing my part to continue bringing new products to market while supporting our current product line. The ACR is and will continue to be a success even though most here seem to be fairly vocal about it's "failure"
There, tossed a little gas no the fire. Flame on ARFcom. Disclaimer, those of you that have chosen to avoid the silliness, thanks. |
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Do you really think it's going to satisfy anyone if we comment? For the most part the ARFcom crowd is begging for reasons to bash us. We'll pass. What can we say? Damned if we do damned if we don't. I could spend all day here defending Magpul. I (Magpul) have been called a liar, a cheat, a con. I understand that nothing I say will satisfy the masses. I'm happy doing my part to continue bringing new products to market while supporting our current product line. The ACR is and will continue to be a success even though most here seem to be fairly vocal about it's "failure" There, tossed a little gas no the fire. Flame on ARFcom. Disclaimer, those of you that have chosen to avoid the silliness, thanks. I actually think it would satisfy some if you commented. Not saying anything makes me think that the pricing issue comes from Magpul, and saying that you collectively refuse to comment means one of two things to ME, because I don't know what the real story is. It makes me think: 1. You have an agreement with BM not to comment on the pricing, and decisions that were made by BM. That is something I could understand, and respect. Businesses make contracts, and things like that are put in contracts to prevent issues from happening. While I'm displeased with the pricing of the ACR, this response was what I figured was coming from Magpul. 2. You refuse to comment because pricing was set by Magpul and BM. This would piss off a lot of people, and turn quite a few people away. If this were true, no comment would be expected because eventually, (you hope) something shiny will pop up, and people will focus on that instead of the price issue. Regardless, I'm sure the ACR is a fine product, and will be a great rifle. I'm disappointed to see it hit the market like this, and the whole thing has taken me back. I have purchased quite a few Magpul items because they were top quality products. I have suggested Magpul products to anyone looking for quality parts. I will continue to look at Magpul products as good quality regardless of what the decision was to price the ACR. When you look around, there is simply not that many companies that make products that I like as much as Magpul. With that said, the lack of comment on behalf of Magpul after they finally released the rifle they spoke so highly of for 3 years has led me to look around, and make sure that I don't want anything else. I see that Magpul is stuck in a bad position now, but to say nothing leaves a lot to be desired. I would have expected Magpul to be very vocal in promoting the ACR, but since SHOT there hasn't been anything. That is as disappointing as the price of the ACR itself. |
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I don't hate Magpul Drake. I have just never bought into the marketing hype. I wish you guys all the luck with the ACR. Fair enough. It's funny that a few guys bouncing ideas over beers turns into our hype. Nothing too deep. I don't think you guys are all about the hype like some. I think you have a knack for listening to what people are wanting, combined with some folks who know what they are talking about, with someone who can design good looking stuff. But the silence is killing me. |
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I don't hate Magpul Drake. I have just never bought into the marketing hype. I wish you guys all the luck with the ACR. Fair enough. It's funny that a few guys bouncing ideas over beers turns into our hype. Nothing too deep. Maybe using the word hype was to harsh. I should have said, I dont see what your products offer that others don't. We had magazines that worked. We had plastc pistol grips, stocks and vertical grips. You guys have successfully reinvented the wheel so to say. Men were killing other men with stock AR's long before Magpuls videos and parts. |
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I do like some of magpuls products but the fanboy shit is out of control. It seems that everything Magpul puts out is an incredibly well thought out, high quality product. I had never heard of them until late '07 or early '08 sometime but once I started trying their products based on suggestions from others I was amazed. From Pmags, to the UBR, and now training DVDs what do they make that isn't worth the money? It does appear that Magpul has a lot of rabid fans, but I don't see them as fanboys. Based on previous experiences with Magpul products how can we not have high expectations for their future products? I'm sure there are some fools out there that just buy the trendiest AR stuff so they can make youtube vidoes about how badass their kit that they've never shot is, but Magpul won't be the only company those douchebags will be "worshipping". They'll probably be just as rabid for LT or KAC gear too. |
| When i say fanboys I'm not talking about people buying there products.I buy many magpul items.I'm talking about the folks that what to know everything about them.The costa beard thread and so on.I want to hear about there products not about them. no offense magpul |