[ARCHIVED THREAD] - PLEASE DELETE (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 10/28/2007 5:54:56 PM EDT
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I am not refering to one night stands here. I am talking active duty. You know the type. Enlisted meets Officer. etc What can be done . . . . . Who takes the blunt of the blow if someone finds out . . . . . Any case refrences anywhere that can be quoted . . . . . What would you do? Would you do it? |
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The one case I personally know of (E7 and O4) didn't end well for either. The ONE thing they had going for them was that they weren't even in the same corps (one infantry, one signals). I only knew because the O4 was my neighbor and it was kinda hard to not notice they were a couple (also kinda hard to miss her  ). Not sure exactly what happened, but once word got out they weren't there much longer, and he was pretty pissed off about the whole thing.I'm not .mil (I just support 'em) so my attitude is one of being hands-off. I'm not sure how I'd handle it if I were in the service and knew about it, and not sure how I'd handle it if I found myself in or heading towards such a relationship. Just noticed this was in HoH -- thanks to everyone who has served, is serving, and those who will serve. I'll stand aside and let ya'll carry on with the really important stuff. |
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Right after 9/11, we had Army Guard units supporting us by helping with base security. One Captain I knew from then is now an E-5 due to messing around with an enlisted person. I can't quote the UCMJ Article off the top of my head, but the officer bears the brunt of the punishment. The enlisted can get an Article 92, failure to obey, but the Article referring to Fraternization only applies to the officer. If I get a chance, I will look it up for you. EDIT I took this off of About.com Ok, it is Article 134. Link Elements. (1) That the accused was a commissioned or warrant officer; (2) That the accused fraternized on terms of military equality with one or more certain enlisted member(s) in a certain manner; (3) That the accused then knew the person(s) to be (an) enlisted member(s); (4) That such fraternization violated the custom of the accused’s service that officers shall not fraternize with enlisted members on terms of military equality; and (5) That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces. Explanation. (1) In general. The gist of this offense is a violation of the custom of the armed forces against fraternization. Not all contact or association between officers and enlisted persons is an offense. Whether the contact or association in question is an offense depends on the surrounding circumstances. Factors to be considered include whether the conduct has compromised the chain of command, resulted in the appearance of partiality, or otherwise undermined good order, discipline, authority, or morale. The acts and circumstances must be such as to lead a reason-able person experienced in the problems of military leadership to conclude that the good order and discipline of the armed forces has been prejudiced by their tendency to compromise the respect of enlisted persons for the professionalism, integrity, and obligations of an officer. (2) Regulations. Regulations, directives, and orders may also govern conduct between officer and enlisted personnel on both a service-wide and a local basis. Relationships between enlisted persons of different ranks, or between officers of different ranks may be similarly covered. Violations of such regulations directives, or orders may be punishable under Article 92. See paragraph 16. |
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Fat ugly short Captain chick + young average looking E-3 This happened less than a year ago on Fort Hood. He was a 19D and she was some kind of signal donkey. She got "fired" from the Army and he's in prison for various AWOL charges (6 times AWOL in a month!). The charges he got from "fraternizing" with that Captain wont be as bad as the full prosecution he's getting for everything else he did instead of just a Chapter out of the military. 
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Why are you asking? Do you have an actual situation or one of a notional sort to specify? |
Well at this time I am not going to disclose the situation. I will say it is real and not me and involves an officer and a NCO (E-5 persuasion), the officer in question is a new butter bar. He is a 7 year E-5 (this tells me he must be a shit bag because he has not advanced yet) She is one of those that doesn't see things for how serious they are. I need any refrenceable informatio possable before I ruin her day. I am going to try to get them split before its to late. |
You cant fix stupid. Let 'em drown. |
Can't do it. Shes family. |
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If they are in 2 separate MOS's and will never work together, I honestly don't see what the big deal is in situations like this. Unless it's affecting job performance, there is no real reason to burn anyone. I also happen to know a few E5's who have been in for 7+ and are awesome at their jobs, so don't rule anyone as a shitbag until you've met them in person and have confirmed or denied it. edit for grammar |
Both work in the same confines of a hospital. Same unit as well. Not sure if they are in the same company. E6 promotion points for his MOS are currently lower than the # of points I had as a E5 almost four years ago. He also has over 7 years in and knows that he is putting her comission in jeporady. How could he not. She could become an E-4 real quick like if the news gets out. She is also living with another officer that has knowledge of the situation. So if she ever gets pissed then . . . . Well you get the idea. All this = shitbag in my book. |
Sorry fister, but it takes two to tango. Roland is right ref the integrity issue & the demotion issue. If she get's in trouble they will force her out after a courtsmartial if it comes to that or she can resign her commission. What branch of service are they in? It's almost unheard of to make SSgt. in the Corps at seven years by fitrep unless it's a meritorious promotion board which is more common at either of our MCRD's for DI's. E2-E3 is automatic as long as you stay out of trouble & are recommended by your CO. We promote by composite (aka "cutting") score E4-E5. Everything above that is fitrep & time in service/time in grade zone for your MOS for those that are wondering. |
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Army Can an officer even resign their commission when they still owe the miltary an additional 7 years of service due to collage funding? I just really dont want to see her get a Dishonarable discharge. She has lived a sheltered life and has absoloutly no idea what her life will be like if she is nailed. So much for her carrer 
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She should know better and know what the consquences are if they get popped. They teach you that in OCS right? I generally don;t even mess with other females in my unit or AOR just because it can cause a huge problem when things don't work out. Are the both active or is this one where they are called up? Someone needs to step up and get out or soemthing. Putting your life and career on the line like that is just stupid. |
Both active. I know nothing of OCS. I work for a living.  The number one problem I have with it is its just plain unbecoming of them both. She is bringing him down for Thanksgiving at her mothers house. My Wife and kids are to attend as well. I have already warned my wife that this may go very badly. He for some reason is very eager to meet me. I guess he feels we have a lot in common. I however am former combat arms. He s not and has betrayed his corps. As a real NCO I will never forget my creed. "No one is more professional than I." He fails at line one. 
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In the USMC an officer will never become enlisted (except for very rare cases of prior enlisted officers, and it is was not a punishment in the only case that I know of where this happened). In fact, this is not a possible punishment under the UCMJ. This person you knew could have been prior enlisted. She would not get a dishonorable discharge. A DD is equivalent of a federal felony (you have to do something much worse than fraternization to get a DD). She'd get her commission revoked or she would be "dismissed." Anyways, I'd warn your family member to knock it off, although you aren't going to tell SOMEONE will- and it's only a matter of time. |
Yes I am a former 13F20. He is also a fast promotion rate MOS. During my time my MOS was not nearly as easy on promotions like they are now. One of the main reasons my former MOS is short staffed is becasue it is one of the most difficult jobs in the ARMY. Not just anyone can do what we do. It is also short staffed now because of how many of us got out after being roally screwed over multiple times becuase we are torn between our parent unit and manuver units functions. |
Not totally sure about college funds, did she get her school 100% paid for? Did she already complete her initial obligation? (probaby 3 or 4 years) She very well may owe money if the gov paid for a bunch of it and she has not fulfilled her initial obligation. I'm not 100% sure how it works though. Officers do not get punitive discharges quite like enlisted do, she would most likely get dismissed. |
Govt paid 100% and has only filled 1 year of the required 8. |
ouch!!!
Ahhhhh, Army. I forgot that they practically give away SNCO promotions there  Anyway, bad juju if it's the same unit. I say have a talk with the guy and with your relative about how stupid they are being. If that doesn't work, well, they'll probably just f themselves eventually and get noticed by the wrong person. |
I agree with that. Guessing we all have seen alot of things while in. We saw it too. Also had Upper NCO's dating,(whatever you want to call it) lower enlisted also. My guess is it depends on the unit and what they will do. I know our unit swept alot under the rug and turned blind eyes to alot. Definately not right. I beleive in the whole Karma thing and think they will eventually screw themselves, then they have no one to blame but themselves. |
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Until a few years ago the Air Force was the only service that barred enlisted/officer relationships categorically. The others only barred them if they were part of the same CoC. When the rules changed people in those sort of relationships were given the choice of either breaking off the relationships or getting married. When officers are disciplined they are not busted down to enlisted ranks. I'm not sure what you think you have knowledge of but that simply does not happen, the rules don't provide for it. Be that as it may, this young lady needs to end this relationship immediately. |
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I saw a very similar situation occur when I was an Airman at my first base. It involved my sqaudron commander, a major and an E6. People started noticing really odd trends like this E6 all of a sudden becoming the commanders personal assistant. Then the E6 magically got taken off the weight management program and she was a blubberbutt and then she got to sew on her E7 stripe all of a sudden. Pretty soon people started talking and rumors started flying. SF investigations started nosing around and then when they gathered more evidence then they knew they could handle the case went up to the Office of Special Investigations and they blew everything wide open. The newly minted E7 was caught in bed with our commander while his wife was away visiting her sick mother. The commander was immediately releived of his command and hidden away. The E7 was also hidden away. We thought the whole affair would be swept under the rug and nothing more would be heard about it. A few months later the major was court martialed and given 4 months in jail and the E7 was given an Article 15. The Major was later cashiered from the AF, lost his house, his kids, his marriage and about everything else he owned. The E7 retired a few years later and now her and the former major are living happily ever after on an E7's pension in Georgia. Fraternization always ends badly for the higher ranking member. I had a girl in my old unit who got two article 15's for fraternization while the NCO's always got hammered and ruined their lives. She always walked away seemingly scott free and the others got dicked over. Fister, you need to make your relative understand that their career will be over quite fast if this relationship isn't broken off ASAP. Officer's are supposed to know better. |
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Alas it is done. Will update with outcome when it becomes available. I called her father. She has a great deal of respect for him and I gave him the down low on what it actually means to the ARMY. Fuc# I hope this doesnt destroy the good relationship I have with my inlaws.
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My understanding is that the USMC has always categorically barred E-O relationships as well. |
Well, this was probably a decent course of action. Hopefully she can see you are genuinely concerned for her. |
Same thing at WFTBN in Pendelton. Gunny married to a Major. Different units and everyone knew. I feel like others here, if job performance is not affected and they are in two different units, it's a non issue in my book. To the OP you need to some how make your family member realize what is at risk. I know it's pretty much up to the unit to decide how they will handle it once it's discovered. If the guy is a 7 year E-5 he will be kicked out in a little while any ways then all will be legit.
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I had an E6(P) in one of my units that was married to an Army nurse Major. They were married while she was still in nursing school and before she was in the Army. The only restriction they had was that they could never be assigned in the same chain of command. That was no problem since EOD units were generally separate from other post units as far as that went. They Army even granted several different joint assignments to the same post. The only times they were seperated for any length of time was when each was assigned to Vietnam at different times. The one thing they had to watch carefully was shows of affection in public while on post or while in uniform. This was over 30 years ago and both are retired and still married. |
I decided to go this route, as she being an officer and me being a former NCO, she never took my word for the truth. She always has figured that I must not know what I am talking about. She has learned the hard way several times now. Over the simplest stuff. Get it in writing . . . etc. If I had confronted her she would have done her usual, its not really that bad thing. Unfortionatly for here her CO will see it otherwise as well as the Sgt Majot. How stuped can you really be. Doing this stuff in the same hospital. Sadly I made the comment long ago when I found out she was to be an officer. She is making herself an easy mark. And she better wise up fast. I already know if somthing happens at thanksgiving this year what I will do about it. I figure its a simple reminder in my book. You are an Officer! Act like one!
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An E6 (married man) in my battalion started messing around with a PFC (single girl) in his squad. She dumped him, ratted her squad leader out and the battalion commander decided to demote him and dock him pay (all of this is hearsay to me). Well, the guy freaks out - doesn't want his wife to find out and leave him... His solution? Shoot himself in the head. Very permanent solution to a big albeit temporary problem. |
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I'm a former Army JAG officer and used to be a trial counsel. Here is what I would recommend to the commander for a similar situation: Absolutely for both of them - no contact order. Easily punished later if they violate it. Transfer one of them out of the work place, and perhaps out of the state. For her - Letter of Reprimand, probably by the commander and locally filed unless she cops a bad attitude. General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand filed in her fiche if she keeps seeing him. For him - If he's a good soldier, nothing beyond corrective training. Article 15 if he keeps seeing her. Yes, there could be a court-martial or an officer elimination board, but they typically end with very little punishment under these facts. I've only seen real punishment where there's a rater/supervisor/trainee relationship. Many of the officers and senior NCOs that will sit on the panel or board remember the old days and don't agree with the new no-tolerance policy, and it shows. |
Hey, I did recommend once that a SPC be chained to a radiator in the day room.* Does that qualify as fun and games? *Deployment to NTC the next morning, high flight risk (kept jumping out windows and running down the street), commander made the decision that he was fine with the soldier getting credit at a later court-martial for pretrial confinement. YMMV. |
| I was fairly new to the military, attending a school in which an O3 and an E6 were a married couple in the same chain of command. I chalked it up to "that's how the National Guard rolls" until an O5 from State Headquarters heard about it from some of my inebriated classmates at a dining-in. The situation was squared away quickly afterward and the school went through some fairly radical personnel changes. |
| Fister, you should be commended for looking out for this lost young woman who is your relative. However, for her not taking your sagely advice, then I think she deserves whatever comes her way. Also it sounds like she lacks the integrity and maturity to be an officer in our military. |
Uh WTF?! No one has called bullshit on this? Officers dont get demoted to enlisted ranks, period. |
The only times I can remember an Officer busted to EM ranks is when they're busted to Pvt. E-1 and sent to Leavenworth Prison. 
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Not entirely true. I don't know all the particulars but my very first platoon leader was a 1LT West back in 1982. I saw him again in 1992 and he was a SSG. All I heard was he made it to CPT, did something stupid and was some how involved with the death of a soldier. He was allowed to finish his career and retire as enlisted. |
| This doesn't have anything to do with demotions resulting from disciplinary actions, but in 97 I knew a MSgt who was commissioned straight out of college in 69 or 70 & he was not a Mustang. He resigned his commission a few years later as a Capt & was re-instated (if that's the word I'm looking for) in the enlisted ranks as a Gunny. I thought that was strange, but it's true & I dunno if that was something particular to his times. |