Young Lieutenants, Seasoned NCOs: How Does It Work? - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Young Lieutenants, Seasoned NCOs: How Does It Work? (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 1/27/2006 6:13:12 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Good thoughts. My suspicion is that they don't offer any funds and/or classes to graduate students. All the wordings I find on the ROTC sites seemed to be tailored to undergraduate programs, but I really am not sure. I'll try to sign into GoArmy chat one of these nights to see if I could do it. The only concern I have is that I don't have time to take more classes. My load is pretty demanding, and I am working, too. However, I'm going to look into it once I get a chance.

Can you pick your MOS with 100% certainty if you do ROTC?

I had not considered Marine Corps OCS for two reasons. First, most of my military friends tell me that they can't envision me being a Marine. Either they don't see me fitting to that culture or they see me in another branch. Secondly, my grandfather was very proud of his service in the Marines, but he always discouraged his kids from joining the Marines. I don't know if he thought the training was too difficult for them or if he knew what terrible things they endured in the Pacific theater. I'm not sure. No disrepect intended to Marines! My grandfather had and I have nothing but respect for you! But I'm a little torn between following in his footsteps and respecting his wishes.

What can people expect from the various OCSs? How is that different from the ROTC route--whether or not that is an option?

Again, I appreciate all the thoughts. Please feel free to add any jr. officer/NCO thoughts and general "officer route" advice for myself or anyone who is interested.

I know a Masters candidate (international affairs)who's doing ROTC; I'll ask him Tuesday about his funding. I think he's on a two-year ROTC program, I know his Master's is 2 years. They do have a program for Juniors to complete in 2 years, I suspect that's what they'd put you through.

I think the best thing to do to find if they'd take you is to talk to the unit. The guy to talk to would be MAJ Riley, their Recruiting officer (contact's on the Fordham site). He's a pretty laid back guy and good to work with (their CO's SF and a hard-charger).

I'm just an officer candidate so I'll shut up now and let the veterans speak. Appreciate the advice here, too.

Posted: 1/27/2006 6:15:07 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I meant, do you get any credit/official recognition from AFROTC. If you're worried about ROTC not accepting you, I don't believe they need any official tie to your Univ to accept you as a cadet. I know we don't. Our guys just go up to Fordham/Manhattan, do their training, and Columbia is happy to take the military's tuition money and not give them any credit. Last time I visited the Fordham detachment, I believe I ran into an NYU cadet.

If you need the credit it's a moot point anyway.

Not to get all recruiter-like, but have you considered Marine Corps OCS? It is THE commissioning source for the Marines; only Naval Academy grads (~15 percent) don't come in through OCS, so the Academy guys are in the minority. OCS grads get to joke about how the ring knockers aren't tough enough to survive OCS, but it's moot once you hit the fleet.

Good thoughts. My suspicion is that they don't offer any funds and/or classes to graduate students. All the wordings I find on the ROTC sites seemed to be tailored to undergraduate programs, but I really am not sure. I'll try to sign into GoArmy chat one of these nights to see if I could do it. The only concern I have is that I don't have time to take more classes. My load is pretty demanding, and I am working, too. However, I'm going to look into it once I get a chance.

Can you pick your MOS with 100% certainty if you do ROTC?

I had not considered Marine Corps OCS for two reasons. First, most of my military friends tell me that they can't envision me being a Marine. Either they don't see me fitting to that culture or they see me in another branch. Secondly, my grandfather was very proud of his service in the Marines, but he always discouraged his kids from joining the Marines. I don't know if he thought the training was too difficult for them or if he knew what terrible things they endured in the Pacific theater. I'm not sure. No disrepect intended to Marines! My grandfather had and I have nothing but respect for you! But I'm a little torn between following in his footsteps and respecting his wishes.

What can people expect from the various OCSs? How is that different from the ROTC route--whether or not that is an option?

Again, I appreciate all the thoughts. Please feel free to add any jr. officer/NCO thoughts and general "officer route" advice for myself or anyone who is interested.

Being an officer of Marines is a calling, and OCS is the proverbial kick in the nuts. Outside of spec ops, it is probably the hardest thing you can do physically in the US military.

Posted: 1/27/2006 6:19:59 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I meant, do you get any credit/official recognition from AFROTC. If you're worried about ROTC not accepting you, I don't believe they need any official tie to your Univ to accept you as a cadet. I know we don't. Our guys just go up to Fordham/Manhattan, do their training, and Columbia is happy to take the military's tuition money and not give them any credit. Last time I visited the Fordham detachment, I believe I ran into an NYU cadet.

If you need the credit it's a moot point anyway.

Not to get all recruiter-like, but have you considered Marine Corps OCS? It is THE commissioning source for the Marines; only Naval Academy grads (~15 percent) don't come in through OCS, so the Academy guys are in the minority. OCS grads get to joke about how the ring knockers aren't tough enough to survive OCS, but it's moot once you hit the fleet.

Good thoughts. My suspicion is that they don't offer any funds and/or classes to graduate students. All the wordings I find on the ROTC sites seemed to be tailored to undergraduate programs, but I really am not sure. I'll try to sign into GoArmy chat one of these nights to see if I could do it. The only concern I have is that I don't have time to take more classes. My load is pretty demanding, and I am working, too. However, I'm going to look into it once I get a chance.

Can you pick your MOS with 100% certainty if you do ROTC?

I had not considered Marine Corps OCS for two reasons. First, most of my military friends tell me that they can't envision me being a Marine. Either they don't see me fitting to that culture or they see me in another branch. Secondly, my grandfather was very proud of his service in the Marines, but he always discouraged his kids from joining the Marines. I don't know if he thought the training was too difficult for them or if he knew what terrible things they endured in the Pacific theater. I'm not sure. No disrepect intended to Marines! My grandfather had and I have nothing but respect for you! But I'm a little torn between following in his footsteps and respecting his wishes.

What can people expect from the various OCSs? How is that different from the ROTC route--whether or not that is an option?

Again, I appreciate all the thoughts. Please feel free to add any jr. officer/NCO thoughts and general "officer route" advice for myself or anyone who is interested.

Being an officer of Marines is a calling, and OCS is the proverbial kick in the nuts. Outside of spec ops, it is probably the hardest thing you can do physically in the US military.

Posted: 1/27/2006 6:43:13 PM EDT

[#4]

Whether you're a Lt, Cpt, Sgt, or etc. you're really in charge of no more than 15 people. If you're a Platton Leader you're in charge of the Platton Sgt and the Squad leaders and they're in charge of the people under them. No matter how high or low on the totem pole you are once you're in a leadership postion its based on that. Not to say the Comanding General won't Brace a trooper he see's out of line, but you have to let the leaders under you do their job.

Posted: 1/27/2006 7:56:29 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Strictly speaking MOS is a term re enlisted qualification although it does get used re Officers; strictly speaking it is called "branch." You will never get a 100% gurantee re the branch - needs of the Army rule. Combat arms are a pyramid - lots of LT's few COL's; conversly, CS and CSS branches have few (relatively) LT's and more SR Officers - they do what is called Branch-detail Branch as a Combat ARms officer for you LT tiome and then rebranch as a CPT. But let me say this, if you want to be in the Army, you need to think of yourself as Soldier - not an Infantryman, not a Redleg, not an MI guy - if you are that picky and you only want to work in a specific job then you won't be happy. Additional duties as assigned will take most of your time as an officer.

Also keep in mind that officers are leaders and managers of large organizations; the Infantry CPT spends more time making it so his company can be trigger pullers, not pulling the trigger himself. The MI CPT spends more time organizing his/her analysts than doing MI - stuff - from your posts I don;t think you would be very happy in the Officer Corps.

Interesting. Thanks for that information. As for managing versus doing, I'll take that into consideration. I am a little action orientated, so your impression is not that off. The MI thought is more because I have considered a career in the Intelligence Community, and MI seemed like a prerequisite. (That said, I don't look at military as stepping stone. It's just one of the thoughts in my head.) I've wondered if another, more action-orientated branch (am I using that term correctly?) would suit me better.

Quoted:
I know a Masters candidate (international affairs)who's doing ROTC; I'll ask him Tuesday about his funding. I think he's on a two-year ROTC program, I know his Master's is 2 years. They do have a program for Juniors to complete in 2 years, I suspect that's what they'd put you through.

I think the best thing to do to find if they'd take you is to talk to the unit. The guy to talk to would be MAJ Riley, their Recruiting officer (contact's on the Fordham site). He's a pretty laid back guy and good to work with (their CO's SF and a hard-charger).

I'm just an officer candidate so I'll shut up now and let the veterans speak. Appreciate the advice here, too.

Oh, cool. I appreciate that. I had no idea, and I hadn't been able to find any info! I might be too far along in my program, but I will make some calls. My recruiter definitely left that detail out and I asked if there was a way to get Uncle Sam to pay for my MA, but he could have genuinely not known. Thanks again for passing that information along.

ETA: I am 25. Seems like 23 is the limit, but I will contact them anyway. Perhaps, they offer some leadership classes or some component of ROTC that would at the very least be a good proving ground for how I might like the career.

Quoted:
Being an officer of Marines is a calling, and OCS is the proverbial kick in the nuts. Outside of spec ops, it is probably the hardest thing you can do physically in the US military.

I don't know much about OCS in general, but I would have to imagine. I'm in pretty good shape, but I don't think my limits are high enough, honestly. What's a good measure if you can really take the rigors of any particular service, branch, etc.?

Posted: 1/30/2006 3:09:44 PM EDT

[#6]

If the new boot "Lt." acts like hes knows it all, I will simply carry out the orders given and let him land squarely on his ass. However if they are willing to listen to myself and the other SNCO's then we will take care of him and teach him to really lead troops.

It all depends, I like the new LT's that are former enlisted, most of them don't have the "I am the officer so I know what I'm doing" attitude.

Posted: 1/30/2006 4:36:36 PM EDT

[#7]

Just for shits and grins...(Soon to be) New 2LT Armor officer checking in, commission date 13may06, all the advice in this thread is pretty much everything i've heard for the past 4 years, cant wait to get out there.

Posted: 1/30/2006 5:36:56 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Just for shits and grins...(Soon to be) New 2LT Armor officer checking in, commission date 13may06, all the advice in this thread is pretty much everything i've heard for the past 4 years, cant wait to get out there.

Congrats on your commission! Chime in with some of your experiences as a new 2LT.

Posted: 1/30/2006 5:46:32 PM EDT

[#9]

Will do, but between BOLC/AOBC/Airborne/Ranger (Crosses Fingers) on top of getting married, I will be a busy boy for quite sometime. But i will try. Now to enjoy the rest of my senior year...

Posted: 1/30/2006 7:33:41 PM EDT

[#10]

Congrats on getting married, too! Good luck and godspeed!

Posted: 1/30/2006 8:26:21 PM EDT

[#11]

Appreciate it, and good luck with whatever you decide to do

Posted: 2/2/2006 7:53:25 AM EDT

[#12]

If MI is your field of interest, and you want to be able to do vs. manage (although the line will get blurred down the road) my advice is to enlist in a MI MOS, get in, bust your ass, make E-5 (you will usually come in as an E-4 with a BA), geta few years under your belt as an E-5 and some good NCOER's, and then submit your Warrant Officer application in whatever warrant MOS your enlisted MOS feeds into. Then you will be a "doer" your whole career while also being the resident expert in that field for your unit.

Here is a list of MI Warrant MOS's and thier enlisted feeder MOS.

350F All Source Intelligence Technician 96B
350G Imagery Intelligence Technician 96D, H
350Z * Attaché Technician All MOSs with ASI 7
351L Counterintelligence Technician 97B
351M Human Intelligence Collection Technician 97E
352N Traffic Analysis Technician 98C
352P Voice Intercept Technician 98G
352Q Morse Intercept Technician 98H
350R Emanations Analysis Technician 98J
352S Non Morse Intercept Technician 98K

Posted: 2/2/2006 10:58:41 AM EDT

[#13]

Thank you, Garand_Shooter. I look into those.

Posted: 2/7/2006 9:31:13 AM EDT

[#14]

I went to OCS as an E-7. I had more problem with senior sgts then young officers. I at one time banned a group SGM from my orderly room, reminding him that I was the company commander not him.

In reality a good offcier will be a good officer regardless of being prior enlisted, an poop head will be a poop head no matter what.

If a young LT listens to his ptl sgt, (but remembers its his ptl) he will do alright. Worse a$$ chewing I ever gave one of my jr lts was when he let a sgm dress him down in front of the troops regarding mess cook assignments (the lt was my xo and had the additional duty as mess officer).

I also fired a 1st after hearing him tell my orderly room to ignor my policies because he ran the orderly room. I demand loyalty in both sgts and jr officers.

as a young lt take the advice of the senior sgts but also take command.

Posted: 2/7/2006 2:23:25 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
I went to OCS as an E-7. I had more problem with senior sgts then young officers. I at one time banned a group SGM from my orderly room, reminding him that I was the company commander not him.

As a mustang did you have any problems with former NCOs thinking because you served together as NCOs they didn't have to respect you as a officer etc? Or you should treat them different because of former positions? After OCS was any attempt made to keep you separate from NCOs you had served with before?

Posted: 2/7/2006 6:11:39 PM EDT

[#16]

Thanks for the additional comments. Does anyone know of a good book for preparing for OCS? What to expect? Fitness guidlines, etc.?

Posted: 2/7/2006 6:34:23 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Thanks for the additional comments. Does anyone know of a good book for preparing for OCS? What to expect? Fitness guidlines, etc.?

www.armyocs.com

I use the Marine site (it's a cross-service foundation), it's pretty useful, even if the forum is a bit clunky.

Posted: 2/7/2006 6:44:28 PM EDT

[#18]

Thank you, mmx1.

Posted: 2/8/2006 12:32:22 PM EDT

[#19]

I am just a lowly contracted Army MSIII, however in regards to the question about branching through ROTC I think I can add something to the discussion.
Last year, this year's comissioning class, was given the option of adding an additional two years of active duty to their contracts and they would get priority on their branch. Not quite a garuntee but close enough. Pretty much all who chose this option got it, and my school is comissioning more Army LT's this year than any other school in the nation with of course the exception of West Point.

Oh, and what exactly does this mean"one of those type Norwich Grads"

Steve

Posted: 2/8/2006 7:45:06 PM EDT

[#20]

You are referring to the ADSO program, which was a trial for FY 06-we had the choice to add 2 years to our contract to get either duty station of choice or branch of choice. However, it truly applied to something like the first 15% of commissionees that were not already guranteed their branch of choice by being a DMG. no one form our program got accepted for the program, however most of them got either their branch of choice, branch detail of choice, or just a really nice branch assignment. Just shedding a little light on what your talking about.

Cowboy

Posted: 2/8/2006 9:21:52 PM EDT

[#21]

Thanks for clearing it up. As I said I'm only a III so we don't know if we'll get it next year. Most of our cadets were quite high on the OML but we brnached a very large number of aviation slots this year, double what we normally get so I have to figure that the ADSO program came into play somewhere. Thanks for the clarification.

Posted: 2/9/2006 4:33:00 AM EDT

[#22]

Not a problem, we assesed something like 8 cadets, two aviation two engineer, one MI, one QM, one infantry, and one Armor (Moi). Not a bad branch draw-except one of the engineers (Our BC) was pissed cause he wanted IN bad. But c'est la vie

Cowboy

Posted: 2/9/2006 5:55:33 AM EDT

[#23]

NUcadet07 and Cowboy, thanks for discussing those details. Can some people clear up for me what are good branch assignments?

Posted: 2/9/2006 7:12:30 AM EDT

[#24]

That all depends on what you want to do. I thought I always wanted to be an Armor officer, but at this point in my life I really don't much care what it is that I do anymore. I am serving my country and whatever the Army tells me to do I will serve in that capacity to the best of my ability. That said I do of course have preferences. My list personally is something to the effect of Armor, Artillery, MP, engineer, ordanance. I'd be happy with any of those. I can't speak for all ROTC programs as my school is a bit different than most programs however here, combat arms are extremely competitive and you need to have a good GPA (you would be very surprised how important GPA is to Cadet Command when considering branching).

I think it is important for you to ask yourself, what do you want to get out of your experience in the Army? If you want to learn some skills that will help you in buisness after you get out, Transportation and Quartermaster are too big ones I hear alot about. Combat Arms leaves you with some very limited skill sets and are triangular organizations as has already been said by Nick in terms of advancement. That is why we see so many branch details. I hope that I have been of some help.

Steve

Posted: 2/9/2006 10:43:24 AM EDT

[#25]

Well, I'm more into doing something valuable with my career rather than do "branch XYZ," whatever that may be. When I hear the phrase "good branch assignment," my ears perk up, because I'm making my determination on what I think looks rewarding to me based on limited information, and I'm a little cautious about somehow volunteering for a "bad branch assignment."

Posted: 2/9/2006 3:17:04 PM EDT

[#26]

My CO (1LT) right now was a SSG in my unit and a really good NCO, great guy to have around looks out for the troops.

But that is the nature of the Guard, we all know each other outside of the unit and most are friends, but when it's time for business it's all business.

Posted: 2/20/2006 2:07:12 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Just for shits and grins...(Soon to be) New 2LT Armor officer checking in, commission date 13may06, all the advice in this thread is pretty much everything i've heard for the past 4 years, cant wait to get out there.

Hey man, I'm in the same boat with you, except I commission on the 12th.

Are you branch detail or straight Armor? What duty stations have you requested? Has your PMS said when you will get orders? Mine said hopefully near the end of this month. Whats your school also? We might be in the same conference.

Posted: 2/20/2006 5:22:18 PM EDT

[#28]

Talking to you on IM,

Posted: 2/20/2006 5:57:16 PM EDT

[#29]

Ok. Yeah, sorry for the attempted hijack.

Posted: 2/20/2006 6:18:34 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Ok. Yeah, sorry for the attempted hijack.

No worries, any military digression talk is okay with me.

Posted: 2/21/2006 4:18:04 PM EDT

[#31]

I think we can all agree that no matter what you do, you'll be ok...as long as you go Armor

Posted: 2/21/2006 5:11:11 PM EDT

[#32]

NUcadet07

They are offering the ADSO option for next year. Also if you put ordanance as a high choice you will most likely get it. Almost if not everyone who put ordanace towards their top 3 got it. The same goes with transportation corps. If you dont want those branches put them down towards the bottom. Or go DMG.

Posted: 2/21/2006 8:37:42 PM EDT

[#33]

Thanks alot. I was thinking of putting Ordanance as my back up choice since it's the biggest branch and easier t get than most. Armor or Field Artillery are my top choices with MP as my 3rd choice. We'll see what they tell us after we go to camp about ADSO.

Steve

Posted: 2/22/2006 12:31:42 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
I think we can all agree that no matter what you do, you'll be ok...as long as you go Armor

A good friend of mine is a Navy helo pilot, and we were talking what would be the best branch. I told him I was leaning Infantry, but toying around with Armor. He tells me, "Go armor, why walk when you can ride?"

Posted: 2/22/2006 12:49:24 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I think we can all agree that no matter what you do, you'll be ok...as long as you go Armor

A good friend of mine is a Navy helo pilot, and we were talking what would be the best branch. I told him I was leaning Infantry, but toying around with Armor. He tells me, "Go armor, why walk when you can ride?"

Exactly.

Posted: 2/26/2006 6:50:26 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
I like the new LT's that are former enlisted, most of them don't have the "I am the officer so I know what I'm doing" attitude.

Instead, they have the "I use to be enlisted, so I know how everything works already" mentality, and *still* don't listen to their NCOs

Oh yeah .... "why walk when you can ride?" Well, it's just something a POG will never understand ...

Posted: 2/27/2006 5:02:57 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Thanks alot. I was thinking of putting Ordanance as my back up choice since it's the biggest branch and easier t get than most. Armor or Field Artillery are my top choices with MP as my 3rd choice. We'll see what they tell us after we go to camp about ADSO.

Steve

I would rethink F/A. My PMS is FA and says that it is extremely limited as of late for promotion (a 'career dead end'), and also keep in mind that a shitload of FA units are doing MP type work, especially EPW ops.

I dunno about you, but that sounds like it sucks to me.

Posted: 3/1/2006 10:07:04 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Oh yeah .... "why walk when you can ride?" Well, it's just something a POG will never understand ...

But............. why ride when you can fly?

I work in a small flying squadron with 55 pilots. We have around 30 Lts. Most of them are smart enough to listen to the four SNCOs we have in the squadron. Some of them aren't. The ones that listen tend to go farther up the ladder than the one's who don't. Just my $.02 worth.

MSgt, USAF
1984 to present

Posted: 3/1/2006 4:27:20 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
Fortunately, I had great NCO's at the Squad and Team Leader level. One of those guys went on to win the MOH.

Randall Shughart, awarded the MOH posthumously. If you dont know the name, I'm sure you know the story.

Rest in Peace

Posted: 3/1/2006 5:35:15 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Oh yeah .... "why walk when you can ride?" Well, it's just something a POG will never understand ...

But............. why ride when you can fly?

I work in a small flying squadron with 55 pilots. We have around 30 Lts. Most of them are smart enough to listen to the four SNCOs we have in the squadron. Some of them aren't. The ones that listen tend to go farther up the ladder than the one's who don't. Just my $.02 worth.

MSgt, USAF
1984 to present

Never thought about it much; flying, that is. I have corrected vision, so I don't know if that would rule me out. I tend to gravitate towards very analytical or very action orientated stuff. I've been under the weather the last few days and slammed at my job, so I haven't had a chance to talk with anyone yet. I'm going to talk to a CPT here in the city soon, though. My decision is still a while off, but I'm less and less happy with my current career direction and want to do something needed and in line with my values.

I missed the post on the MOH recipient earlier. Thank you for sharing it. Did any of veterans here feel a little daunted taking on the responsibility of their jobs? Some pretty amazing people in uniform--I find it a little intimidating.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Young Lieutenants, Seasoned NCOs: How Does It Work? (Page 2 of 2)

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