Posted: 11/24/2010 9:34:03 AM EDT
|
so i have to do a class on indirect fire and obviously i dont have mortars or anything like that. so.......what i want to do is this
i want want set up some little green army men toys and have soldiers a distance off with a pair of binos spot the "target" write up a call for fire request and send it up on some MBITRs then ill have another group of soldiers launch some waterballoons and make the first soldier call in adjustments based on where the balloons hit in relation to the army men now of course nothing is to scale but i want them to get the idea as far as rounds being indirect (balloons going over head) and that they need to adjust fire and use proper commands. i also want it to be fun and i think if its different the soldiers will remember it more. what do you guys think? yes, no? suggestions? tips on indirect fire? comments? should i position the FDC at a different spot and not behind them? |
| Maybe include some instruction or refresher on grid coordinates and target direction in mils. Keep it simple for the typical infantryman... 1) This is me 2) Target location 3) Enemy description followed by adjustments as needed. No matter what, being able to accurately give the location is most important, in a combat situation if you can do that the tube strokers will take care of the rest. |
| The problem with using the waterballoons is they are too random. I don't care how many times you toss waterballoons, you're not going to be able to be anywhere near as accurate as current arty. You'd be better off scratching the whole "reality of something flying over their heads" thing and just having someone with a long stick poking it into the dirt where you want the round to have striked. This will much better able you to bracket the rounds and get good feedback on target location. |
|
Quoted:
The problem with using the waterballoons is they are too random. I don't care how many times you toss waterballoons, you're not going to be able to be anywhere near as accurate as current arty. You'd be better off scratching the whole "reality of something flying over their heads" thing and just having someone with a long stick poking it into the dirt where you want the round to have striked. This will much better able you to bracket the rounds and get good feedback on target location. you bring up a great point. it cant be as accurate but thats part of the idea is to make them correct when the balloon hits too far off the mark and have the throwers bring it in gradually. i know its not perfect but its better than sitting in a class room with a ranger handbook the whole time |
|
Quoted:
Maybe include some instruction or refresher on grid coordinates and target direction in mils. Keep it simple for the typical infantryman... 1) This is me 2) Target location 3) Enemy description followed by adjustments as needed. No matter what, being able to accurately give the location is most important, in a combat situation if you can do that the tube strokers will take care of the rest. i like that, i want to draw a compas from supply and have them give some good mil coordinates and lines. it is different than degrees and youre right they need to know that. itll be a little conjecture but as long as they are thinking i feel itll have value and force them to think mils thanks for the input! keep it coming guys |
| I remember a class i did like this with limited resources. Get a large table/board/flat surface and create a grid on it. Place the "target" and the students "location" on the table. They do the call for fire and you can place where the "impacts" are and allow them to do adjustments. I think this will accomplish what your looking for and it give more control then balloons. Plus it gets them using the grid and figuring out location/direction. The only supplies you will need are compass, protractor, the "battlefield" and maybe print out some grid maps. You could make some simple maps will MS paint to match the mock battlefields terrain. |
|
I printed out a image off of google earth of an Afghan Village and drew grid squares.
I gave them a scenario where their patrol got engaged and marked their position and enemy positions. Then basic CCF from there showing them where the impacts were, ect. I tried other ways of teaching this with more interactive methods and this one worked best for my guys. |
|
ok, not sure you can get this stuff, but you never know. We all know you folks like things that go bang. This should be what you need.
start with a few of these: Rifle grenade You may be even to find them in some stores location somewhere you can req. them from still. Then you'll need at least two of these or more. You can get them a few places. This is just an example: Classic SKS WE STILL HAVE A FEW OF THE STANDARD YUGO SKS RIFLES IN THE GOOD/VERY GOOD CONDITION. NO ACCESSORIES, JUST A GOOD SOLID RIFLE, READY TO FIRE. ITEM # YUGO-SKS........$299.95 You can get 7.69x39 blanks at a number of places. (Make SURE you use blanks. You cannot use full rounds with just the bullet removed. You don't want to know how I figured that out.) Then you just find an open field and have fun. Set up a blind pit. Walls, trucks, or something to block the shooters vision. Then have the observers offset and yelling corrections to them to a target that you can set out ~100 yrds away and move around. Me and a buddy picked up about 5 of these inert grenades and some SKS's for $200 a few years ago. Makes for a great game of JARTS (if you know what that is) for grown ups. The fun part is when you convince one of the other drun*%...ah, I mean participants that they'll win $50 if they take a bucket out and catch it. Seriously. These things are real consistent. It would be a great training aid and the $500 bucks would not go to waste. People would remember it also because its fun to do. ETA: You may be able to req. rifle adapters also now that I think about it. They made them for M14's, M1's and 1903's if you still have them. |
|
rifle grenades might be a bit much for the middle of maryland! fun though....
i like the google map idea and the grid ideas a lot. that may be a great alternative. i want to come up with good training for the soldiers but like most things have very limited resources. im willing to spend some coin on my soldiers but not too much. im a college student too! thanks guys for all the ideas anything else you want to add is appreciated |
|
0331_usmc, SiVisPacem, and KillAgain gave you some decent advise.
My only addition is you can do without throwing stuff or making things go bang. Key things would be getting a proper, or close to proper, CFF and TARGET LOCATION. Walk them through the various ways to locate a target. In a situation that your average CA guy would find himself in...getting on the radio and giving the target location and a brief description is the most important thing. 0331_usmc gave you a decent idea on how to replicate the target area. This can be done by making a sand table that looks like a few grid squares on your map. Note....do not put the grid squares on the table. That would be cheating. All you need is one guy with a radio to replicate the FDC, and unless he knows what he is doing, just have him do the basics....read back the CFF, but say "out", announce MTO, announce Angle T every once in awhile to get your guys used to the different things, announce shot, splash, or rounds complete at the appropriate time(say "over" for these). Also...do you have a Call For Fire Trainer in your AO? There are a few different versions/names, but it can be useful tool for trained and untrained observers. |
|
As usual, FDC has great advice.
I did one of these lanes not too long ago. Since the CFF is made according to very stringent rules, you need to both be familiar with them, and be ready to teach them. You need to know the six components to a properly formatted call for fire. You should explain target location error, try to explain Angle T, explain MTO even if they don't need to know how to use each component of it. Concentrate on teaching them successive bracketing and mil relation formula. If you can, go to the top of a building or hill and use maps to call fire on landmarks. Make them spot adjustments and make corrections. Teaching OT factor is important, but it won't be easy. They will have compasses in degrees. Make sure that they mention degrees or the FDC might enter it in mils. Stay away from anything flashy. I just told the Soldiers were the round landed and had them correct. And no need for radios, unless you want to reinforce comms training at the same time. |
|
Quoted:
They will have compasses in degrees. Make sure that they mention degrees or the FDC might enter it in mils. . That one is important. Most of the CFFs from non FA, or untrained observers tend to come in degrees. A HUGE difference between "Direction 270" when it is 270 degrees or 270 mils. One note on this...when using degrees, most FDCs will assume that you are using an undeclinated compass and will apply the GM angle when converting from degrees to mils. If you are giving him the declinated direction, let him know. |
more great advice i love it. i was tasked with this cuz im the only one with experience on mortars and THAT was only because i happen to be playing with the mortar guys when a training mission became a real mission on the FOB one night. i really wish we had a fister or an arty guy but everyone in our company either used to be infantry, a medic or always ca.
thanks for the input. great advice. im going off of the tactical mortars field manual and the CFF graphic training aid. what other resources should i look at? im having them use MBITRs because the company commander wants to intergrate our commo class. doing a 9line the same way that day. oh and happy thanksgiving! ive got a 20lbs turkey in an apple brine as i type 
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
They will have compasses in degrees. Make sure that they mention degrees or the FDC might enter it in mils. . That one is important. Most of the CFFs from non FA, or untrained observers tend to come in degrees. A HUGE difference between "Direction 270" when it is 270 degrees or 270 mils. One note on this...when using degrees, most FDCs will assume that you are using an undeclinated compass and will apply the GM angle when converting from degrees to mils. If you are giving him the declinated direction, let him know. is there any particular way to state that? or just "750 meters on 240 degrees with declination?" |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
They will have compasses in degrees. Make sure that they mention degrees or the FDC might enter it in mils. . That one is important. Most of the CFFs from non FA, or untrained observers tend to come in degrees. A HUGE difference between "Direction 270" when it is 270 degrees or 270 mils. One note on this...when using degrees, most FDCs will assume that you are using an undeclinated compass and will apply the GM angle when converting from degrees to mils. If you are giving him the declinated direction, let him know. is there any particular way to state that? or just "750 meters on 240 degrees with declination?" You want to give FDC direction as soon as possible. Pretty much right after the initial CFF. Unless of course you are shooting polar missions. Give them a direction 240 degrees over..they'll read back. Then nice and informal like let them know that the compass is declinated. ETA: re-reading I see you are giving a tgt location. Should be direction then distance. Still, just tack on anywhere early that you have declinated your compass. If your GM angle is small, and you're not doing danger close, I wouldn't even worry about it. What's a few mils between friends? 
|
|
Oh, Don't Touch My Dirty Dick Please, For Veneral Disease Runs Hot Through My Schlong, Repeat!
10 internets for anyone other than FDC who tells me to what that refers. And, no, it doesn't refer to anything that happened as a result of a trip to Suzie's Barber Shop and Massage Parlor in Lawton. |
|
What are your actually constraints in the way of facilities? Many guard armories have GUARD-FIST or its updated equivalent; also there is a computer suite (Marine Corps calls it DVTS) that many units to include the Guard having an equivalent that allow call for fire training.
Also, for like 120 dollars your command can buy steel beast professional, it has a pretty good fire support simulator block in it. |
|
Do you have a Vector/Dagr available to you? It would be good to get your guys used to using one.
If I were you I'd start with Polar Missions and keep the first few lessons on that. If you try to teach them all the different fire mission types it may be overwhelming. From my recent experience with CFF in Country, when we used a Vector/dagr to call in a grid mission the Fire Support Coordination Center still wanted a direction and distance to recheck the grid. If you used a map to get a target grid they wouldn't even approve it. (Everyone has seen the "not for targeting purposes" on the top of the maps) It may be different else where but Polar Missions were the quickest and easiest way to get rounds approved. It's important that they understand the full scope of CFF, but it doesn't need to be that complicated for guys on the ground. If I were you I'd stress Polar and Grid when training your guys. CFF is simple and all they really need is to be proficient at determining their position, direction, distance and "target" description. |
|
Quoted:
Do you have a Vector/Dagr available to you? It would be good to get your guys used to using one. If I were you I'd start with Polar Missions and keep the first few lessons on that. If you try to teach them all the different fire mission types it may be overwhelming. From my recent experience with CFF in Country, when we used a Vector/dagr to call in a grid mission the Fire Support Coordination Center still wanted a direction and distance to recheck the grid. If you used a map to get a target grid they wouldn't even approve it. (Everyone has seen the "not for targeting purposes" on the top of the maps) It may be different else where but Polar Missions were the quickest and easiest way to get rounds approved. It's important that they understand the full scope of CFF, but it doesn't need to be that complicated for guys on the ground. If I were you I'd stress Polar and Grid when training your guys. CFF is simple and all they really need is to be proficient at determining their position, direction, distance and "target" description. It is much more complicated than the grid pulled off of a map not being for targeting purposes, it really all about collateral effects mitigation. |
|
Quoted:
Oh, Don't Touch My Dirty Dick Please, For Veneral Disease Runs Hot Through My Schlong, Repeat! 10 internets for anyone other than FDC who tells me to what that refers. And, no, it doesn't refer to anything that happened as a result of a trip to Suzie's Barber Shop and Massage Parlor in Lawton. 15 subsequent corrections, I'll take my 10 internets please. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Oh, Don't Touch My Dirty Dick Please, For Veneral Disease Runs Hot Through My Schlong, Repeat! 10 internets for anyone other than FDC who tells me to what that refers. And, no, it doesn't refer to anything that happened as a result of a trip to Suzie's Barber Shop and Massage Parlor in Lawton. 15 subsequent corrections, I'll take my 10 internets please. Name them, in order. (Don't cheat.) |
|
FDC thank you! and all the other who posted!
All this info is going to make for good training. I want my soldiers to be able to pick up a radio in an emergency and at least have an idea on howto get some friendliest to dump rounds on bad guys. Were not FOs but everyone needs to know the basics. So polarmissionsand getting good grids is what I'm going to focus on. Hopefully we can build on it and take it further next itteration. Happy turkey day guys! |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Oh, Don't Touch My Dirty Dick Please, For Veneral Disease Runs Hot Through My Schlong, Repeat! 10 internets for anyone other than FDC who tells me to what that refers. And, no, it doesn't refer to anything that happened as a result of a trip to Suzie's Barber Shop and Massage Parlor in Lawton. 15 subsequent corrections, I'll take my 10 internets please. Name them, in order. (Don't cheat.) 1. observer / target direction 2. danger close 3. trajectory 4. method of fire 5. distribution 6. projectile 7. fuse 8. volume 9. deviation correction 10. range correction 11. height of burst 12. target description 13. method of control 14. splash 15. repeat I didn't cheat, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I should say that I'm an E-6 and also a Company FSNCO so, I guess that is cheating haha. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
They will have compasses in degrees. Make sure that they mention degrees or the FDC might enter it in mils. . That one is important. Most of the CFFs from non FA, or untrained observers tend to come in degrees. A HUGE difference between "Direction 270" when it is 270 degrees or 270 mils. One note on this...when using degrees, most FDCs will assume that you are using an undeclinated compass and will apply the GM angle when converting from degrees to mils. If you are giving him the declinated direction, let him know. is there any particular way to state that? or just "750 meters on 240 degrees with declination?" You want to give FDC direction as soon as possible. Pretty much right after the initial CFF. Unless of course you are shooting polar missions. Give them a direction 240 degrees over..they'll read back. Then nice and informal like let them know that the compass is declinated. ETA: re-reading I see you are giving a tgt location. Should be direction then distance. Still, just tack on anywhere early that you have declinated your compass. If your GM angle is small, and you're not doing danger close, I wouldn't even worry about it. hat's a few mils between friends? Besides, if you're lucky and you get 155's instead of pop guns or mortars, you can be quite a bit off and still have kills 
ETA - don't just assume that you can take any 13 series and he'll know CFF. I was a 13B and while I had an advantage during the CFF class in my 11B transition course, I certainly wasn't anywhere near the level of the 13F that was teaching it. I had a great grasp on what happens on the gun line, and what the FDC is doing, but not so much on the calling end of it. But the one thing I did have was a strong back! |
|
thanks for all the replies! FDC your knowledge is impressive I wish i was more versed in these matters. i never really had much love for mortars until i got to hit some badguys with em and saw what they can do. damn 120mm are wicked!
if you guys want to keep posting all things indirect please do! i love stories, especially about bangin the old school mortars with a bat to unjam rounds! |