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Posted: 1/25/2002 8:57:23 AM EDT
[#1]
I have and use both an AR and MP5 in 9mm. I prefer the AR, if I am going to carry a rifle, I may as well shoot rifle rounds. :)
However, I think I would like the H&K MP in 10mm a lot more than the 9mm version ... with the full power stuff (not that watered down crap on most store shelves). This could nearly close the gap with the AR/M16. You get great accuracy for really tight bursts, particularly at entry distances as well as increased ballistic performance. I think it is accurate out to 200m rather than the 100m for the 9mm. However, that being said, I think I would still side with the AR/M16. The .223 gives more versatility all in about the same sized package. My duties have enough of a mix between rural and urban operations to make the .223 the winner. I may not make the same decision if I did only urban entries. |
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Posted: 1/25/2002 11:38:14 AM EDT
[#2]
Ar-15 with 11.5 barrel, why carry a shoulder fired weapon to shoot pistol ammo, bad guys wear body armor to
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Posted: 1/25/2002 11:55:32 AM EDT
[#3]
I think cops should just use regular 12 ga shotguns and that's it. Why do they need submachineguns and rifles to raid a house ? Its just an excuse to waste taxpayer money and buy the department some nice toys.
Seriously, when cops raid a house they have the element of surprise and outnumber the people in side like 2 or 3. On top of that you are talking about a trained team of professionals going up against amateurs. I don't see the need for anything more then a shotgun. |
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Posted: 1/25/2002 12:12:46 PM EDT
[#4]
Depends on my job. Based on my limited experience, the mission dictates the weapon, and what I am mandated to carry has always been what I would have picked, or at least a variation thereof.
If I am covering everyone else, in the point team or perimeter, I carry an M16A2 carbine (basically an M4 with a 2-position stock and A1 sites). If I am on prisoner control, carrying entry tools or doing something else that occupies my hands, a SIG P220 with a tac light. I don't run point. If I did, I'd go with the pistol Sometimes, I carry an 870 stoked with beanbags or my weapon is in the holster and I am counting on the other guys to cover me becuase I have something else to do. Remember, not everyone on an entry is or needs to be a shooter for every mission. |
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Posted: 1/25/2002 12:26:12 PM EDT
[#5]
When choosing a weapon of choice for an entry, specific mission requirements have to be considered. Special Weapons and Tactics means just that. To limit the choice of weapons to just one gun is foolish. A regular patrolman can carry an AR-15 in their car. SWAT adds tactics and training to those weapons which are selected on a mission by mission basis. A team's success depends on its training, weapons, and tactics. Each weapon has is own strengths and should be selected for use because of those. The MP-5 has been the weapon of choice for anti-terrorism units for years and that is because it is the best weapon for that role. The AR-15 is also a fine weapon and should be used in conjunction with the MP-5, shotguns, less lethal technology, and all the other weapons, training, and other resources that a team can accumulate. An attempt to diminish the resources available to a SWAT team diminishes it's capabilities and effectiveness and should be avoided as much as possible. As for just using shotguns, only a fool takes on the bad guys in a "fair" fight, where the bad guys have the advantage of terrain familiarity. Our job is to win at all costs and hopefully, the threat of irresistable force will prevent the use of any force at all. That is our mission and we do whatever it takes to go home in one piece at the end of the day.
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Posted: 1/25/2002 1:50:12 PM EDT
[#6]
[b]"I don't see the need for anything more then a shotgun.[/b]
You must have not been on any swat entries than. A shotgun is a fine weapon and are taken on raids but not a a sole entry weapon, like I said bad guys use body armor and barricades so the shotgun would be a useless weapon |
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Posted: 1/25/2002 5:18:58 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: I think cops should just use regular 12 ga shotguns and that's it. Why do they need submachineguns and rifles to raid a house ? Its just an excuse to waste taxpayer money and buy the department some nice toys. Seriously, when cops raid a house they have the element of surprise and outnumber the people in side like 2 or 3. On top of that you are talking about a trained team of professionals going up against amateurs. I don't see the need for anything more then a shotgun. You sir, obviously have no clue what you are talking about. You think all criminals are amateurs? [whacko] Personally M4 or HK 53 |
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Posted: 1/25/2002 5:29:53 PM EDT
[#8]
For CQB, MP5(The best of the best), M4 Carbine(.223 preferred), 12 gauge shotgun(for breaching), or pistol in .45
MP5 fills the room with lead quickly and accurately. M4 Carbine same as above and defeats body armor. 12 gauge for breaching doors and intimidation factor. .45 for stopping power. It is best to use a combination of the above depending on the situation. Just my opinion. Max |
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Posted: 1/25/2002 6:05:55 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: I think cops should just use regular 12 ga shotguns and that's it. Why do they need submachineguns and rifles to raid a house ? Its just an excuse to waste taxpayer money and buy the department some nice toys. Seriously, when cops raid a house they have the element of surprise and outnumber the people in side like 2 or 3. On top of that you are talking about a trained team of professionals going up against amateurs. I don't see the need for anything more then a shotgun. Good thinking, when that little bank robbery turns into a hostage situation I'm sure all the cops armed with .38's and 12 ga's. will be able to resolve the situation without and hostages get killed or wounded. |
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Posted: 1/25/2002 6:14:41 PM EDT
[#10]
The weapon system should be chosen for the exact application or mission. I have been through plenty of doors with a MP5/40, AR15/M16, as well as a 12ga with bean bags, and sometimes only a handgun, and recently a M26 taser. My preference depends on the particular situation and what my partners are employing as well.
If I had to choose an overall one weapon system, then I would opt for an AR15 Tactical 16 (16" barrel with full length sites), with surefire millenium lite, night sites, giles sling, dual stacked mags, and an A1 or shortened tactical stock. The AR15/M16 is very capable of surgical shot placement, and the ballistic capabilities give excellent results while also reducing chances of overpenetration versus handgun and shotgun rounds. My shotgun choice would be an entry shotgun such as the Benelli M1-90 Entry with ghost ring sites, surefire lite, night sites, giles sling, extended charging handle and safety, and side saddle. Or the Remington 870 setup for entry as well. The shotgun has great versatility for bean bagging, duty buck, slugs, door breachers, muzzle dispersion, chemical, etc. The shotgun is not my weapon choice for surgical shot placement, plus if using buck rounds then one has to account for multiple projectiles per pull of the trigger. Shotgun rounds have a tendency to penetrate more than .223 so again it needs to be chosen mission specific. For a handgun I prefer my Glock 21 with Heinie Slant Pro sites, and Tac3M light mount, or an M6 lite for shield work. Given the choice I would always opt for a shoulder weapon because it is easier to shoot due to being able to stabilize in the shoulder, and more accurate due it a longer site radius. Handguns are not my first choice for entry work unless you are employing a shield. Just my $.02 Sully DPMS Master Instructor www.defensive-edge.net www.dpmsinc.com |
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Posted: 1/25/2002 6:16:57 PM EDT
[#11]
I've always been partial to the 12ga beretta or benelli semi auto. My other choice would be the colt shorty in either .223 or 9mm with three shot burst.
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Posted: 1/25/2002 8:33:50 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: I think cops should just use regular 12 ga shotguns and that's it. Why do they need submachineguns and rifles to raid a house ? Its just an excuse to waste taxpayer money and buy the department some nice toys. Seriously, when cops raid a house they have the element of surprise and outnumber the people in side like 2 or 3. On top of that you are talking about a trained team of professionals going up against amateurs. I don't see the need for anything more then a shotgun. [b]TROLL[/b] Oh by the way, you are an idiot! And as already stated, you, Sir, have no idea what you are talking about! As for me, I will deploy with a Benelli until I qualify with me AR next week. I firmly believe that the AR is probably one of the very best tactical weapons around. Although I will admit an HK53 might just edge it out. You got penetration where it's needed, will defeat body armor - pistol rounds won't. You have range, you have capacity, your optics can very for your mission, it's light. Could go on and on. You must taylor your weapon selection - as already stated - to your mission. But given a choice, no questions, hands down, the M-4! |
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Posted: 1/25/2002 10:31:24 PM EDT
[#13]
I have to concur, ar-nut is a moron who obviously has never had to kick a door. Shotguns are useful tools, but like any other weapon, they have their limitations. One of the real advantages to a .223 carbine is limited penetration in common building materials, using the right ammo. A 40- or 55- grain TAP load will punch through a lot fewer sheetrock walls than a load of 00 buckshot or a 12g slug. Ever seen how far a 1-ounce slug will go through a house, ar-nut? No, I didn't think so. And would you want to take a hostage shot on a raid gone bad with a short-barreled shotgun stoked with buckshot? Not me. The entry shotgun has a definite place, but it's capabilities are too limited for it to be the only choice for crisis entry.
As far as outnumbering the people inside 2 or 3 to one, I've been on a number of drug warrants where we were actually outnumbered by the crankers who were flopping at the house for the night. Not a fun scenario. But you wouldn't know anything about that, would you, since you get your info from the media or bad cop movies/TV shows. As far as all bad guys being amateurs, where the hell did you get that idea? There are plenty of ex-military guys who went bad, and I would hardly call organizations like the Hells Angels "amateurs". There are also plenty of just plain hard-core convicts who know how to use guns and aren't afraid to fight. Here's a tip for you: Miami Vice isn't real, and the mass media are a bunch of ignorant morons. Stop talking smack about things you obviously know nothing about, and let your parents have their computer back. |
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Posted: 1/27/2002 6:09:16 PM EDT
[#14]
Shot guns are usefull for breaching the door and for use with less lethal loads and killing large animimals in rural appications and thats it. I worked long and hard to get our chief to approve AR-15's now were losing him I hope I don't have to go through that battle agian. If your life is on the line you want the best fighting tool available not one that will do in a pinch.
PAT |
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Posted: 1/28/2002 7:56:21 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: I think cops should just use regular 12 ga shotguns and that's it. Why do they need submachineguns and rifles to raid a house ? Its just an excuse to waste taxpayer money and buy the department some nice toys. Seriously, when cops raid a house they have the element of surprise and outnumber the people in side like 2 or 3. On top of that you are talking about a trained team of professionals going up against amateurs. I don't see the need for anything more then a shotgun. Ok, you are fooling yourself. Obviously not a LEO. I only have one thing to say. North Hollywood BofA Robbery. If the LEOs in that situation only had shotguns and pistols, a lot more people would be in caskets. So who is to say you are not going to run into those same heavily armed, body armor shielded tweaker like those two? End of story. |
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Posted: 1/28/2002 2:55:50 PM EDT
[#16]
Thanks guys,a lot of good info here.
ar-nut,you sir are a troll.This question was for the guys that bravely do this every day,thats why it is here not in GD!! |
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Posted: 1/29/2002 12:57:05 PM EDT
[#17]
DON'T FEED THE TROLLS! It just encourages them. Buzzy
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Posted: 1/29/2002 4:18:40 PM EDT
[#18]
It depends on the mission.
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