Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 1/25/2002 8:43:44 AM EDT
What weapon would you use if YOU had the say so,and why.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 8:57:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2002 9:05:30 AM EDT by Switchback]
I have and use both an AR and MP5 in 9mm. I prefer the AR, if I am going to carry a rifle, I may as well shoot rifle rounds. :) However, I think I would like the H&K MP in 10mm a lot more than the 9mm version ... with the full power stuff (not that watered down crap on most store shelves). This could nearly close the gap with the AR/M16. You get great accuracy for really tight bursts, particularly at entry distances as well as increased ballistic performance. I think it is accurate out to 200m rather than the 100m for the 9mm. However, that being said, I think I would still side with the AR/M16. The .223 gives more versatility all in about the same sized package. My duties have enough of a mix between rural and urban operations to make the .223 the winner. I may not make the same decision if I did only urban entries.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 11:38:14 AM EDT
Ar-15 with 11.5 barrel, why carry a shoulder fired weapon to shoot pistol ammo, bad guys wear body armor to
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 11:55:32 AM EDT
I think cops should just use regular 12 ga shotguns and that's it. Why do they need submachineguns and rifles to raid a house ? Its just an excuse to waste taxpayer money and buy the department some nice toys. Seriously, when cops raid a house they have the element of surprise and outnumber the people in side like 2 or 3. On top of that you are talking about a trained team of professionals going up against amateurs. I don't see the need for anything more then a shotgun.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 12:12:46 PM EDT
Depends on my job. Based on my limited experience, the mission dictates the weapon, and what I am mandated to carry has always been what I would have picked, or at least a variation thereof. If I am covering everyone else, in the point team or perimeter, I carry an M16A2 carbine (basically an M4 with a 2-position stock and A1 sites). If I am on prisoner control, carrying entry tools or doing something else that occupies my hands, a SIG P220 with a tac light. I don't run point. If I did, I'd go with the pistol Sometimes, I carry an 870 stoked with beanbags or my weapon is in the holster and I am counting on the other guys to cover me becuase I have something else to do. Remember, not everyone on an entry is or needs to be a shooter for every mission.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 12:26:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2002 12:30:58 PM EDT by fiddlersgreen]
When choosing a weapon of choice for an entry, specific mission requirements have to be considered. Special Weapons and Tactics means just that. To limit the choice of weapons to just one gun is foolish. A regular patrolman can carry an AR-15 in their car. SWAT adds tactics and training to those weapons which are selected on a mission by mission basis. A team's success depends on its training, weapons, and tactics. Each weapon has is own strengths and should be selected for use because of those. The MP-5 has been the weapon of choice for anti-terrorism units for years and that is because it is the best weapon for that role. The AR-15 is also a fine weapon and should be used in conjunction with the MP-5, shotguns, less lethal technology, and all the other weapons, training, and other resources that a team can accumulate. An attempt to diminish the resources available to a SWAT team diminishes it's capabilities and effectiveness and should be avoided as much as possible. As for just using shotguns, only a fool takes on the bad guys in a "fair" fight, where the bad guys have the advantage of terrain familiarity. Our job is to win at all costs and hopefully, the threat of irresistable force will prevent the use of any force at all. That is our mission and we do whatever it takes to go home in one piece at the end of the day.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 1:50:12 PM EDT
[b]"I don't see the need for anything more then a shotgun.[/b] You must have not been on any swat entries than. A shotgun is a fine weapon and are taken on raids but not a a sole entry weapon, like I said bad guys use body armor and barricades so the shotgun would be a useless weapon
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 5:18:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ar-nut: I think cops should just use regular 12 ga shotguns and that's it. Why do they need submachineguns and rifles to raid a house ? Its just an excuse to waste taxpayer money and buy the department some nice toys. Seriously, when cops raid a house they have the element of surprise and outnumber the people in side like 2 or 3. On top of that you are talking about a trained team of professionals going up against amateurs. I don't see the need for anything more then a shotgun.
View Quote
You sir, obviously have no clue what you are talking about. You think all criminals are amateurs? [whacko] Personally M4 or HK 53
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 5:29:53 PM EDT
For CQB, MP5(The best of the best), M4 Carbine(.223 preferred), 12 gauge shotgun(for breaching), or pistol in .45 MP5 fills the room with lead quickly and accurately. M4 Carbine same as above and defeats body armor. 12 gauge for breaching doors and intimidation factor. .45 for stopping power. It is best to use a combination of the above depending on the situation. Just my opinion. Max
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 6:05:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ar-nut: I think cops should just use regular 12 ga shotguns and that's it. Why do they need submachineguns and rifles to raid a house ? Its just an excuse to waste taxpayer money and buy the department some nice toys. Seriously, when cops raid a house they have the element of surprise and outnumber the people in side like 2 or 3. On top of that you are talking about a trained team of professionals going up against amateurs. I don't see the need for anything more then a shotgun.
View Quote
Good thinking, when that little bank robbery turns into a hostage situation I'm sure all the cops armed with .38's and 12 ga's. will be able to resolve the situation without and hostages get killed or wounded.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 6:14:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2002 8:00:48 PM EDT by sully]
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 6:16:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 8:33:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2002 8:34:24 PM EDT by pakrat]
Originally Posted By ar-nut: I think cops should just use regular 12 ga shotguns and that's it. Why do they need submachineguns and rifles to raid a house ? Its just an excuse to waste taxpayer money and buy the department some nice toys. Seriously, when cops raid a house they have the element of surprise and outnumber the people in side like 2 or 3. On top of that you are talking about a trained team of professionals going up against amateurs. I don't see the need for anything more then a shotgun.
View Quote
[b]TROLL[/b] Oh by the way, you are an idiot! And as already stated, you, Sir, have no idea what you are talking about! As for me, I will deploy with a Benelli until I qualify with me AR next week. I firmly believe that the AR is probably one of the very best tactical weapons around. Although I will admit an HK53 might just edge it out. You got penetration where it's needed, will defeat body armor - pistol rounds won't. You have range, you have capacity, your optics can very for your mission, it's light. Could go on and on. You must taylor your weapon selection - as already stated - to your mission. But given a choice, no questions, hands down, the M-4!
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 10:31:24 PM EDT
I have to concur, ar-nut is a moron who obviously has never had to kick a door. Shotguns are useful tools, but like any other weapon, they have their limitations. One of the real advantages to a .223 carbine is limited penetration in common building materials, using the right ammo. A 40- or 55- grain TAP load will punch through a lot fewer sheetrock walls than a load of 00 buckshot or a 12g slug. Ever seen how far a 1-ounce slug will go through a house, ar-nut? No, I didn't think so. And would you want to take a hostage shot on a raid gone bad with a short-barreled shotgun stoked with buckshot? Not me. The entry shotgun has a definite place, but it's capabilities are too limited for it to be the only choice for crisis entry. As far as outnumbering the people inside 2 or 3 to one, I've been on a number of drug warrants where we were actually outnumbered by the crankers who were flopping at the house for the night. Not a fun scenario. But you wouldn't know anything about that, would you, since you get your info from the media or bad cop movies/TV shows. As far as all bad guys being amateurs, where the hell did you get that idea? There are plenty of ex-military guys who went bad, and I would hardly call organizations like the Hells Angels "amateurs". There are also plenty of just plain hard-core convicts who know how to use guns and aren't afraid to fight. Here's a tip for you: Miami Vice isn't real, and the mass media are a bunch of ignorant morons. Stop talking smack about things you obviously know nothing about, and let your parents have their computer back.
Link Posted: 1/27/2002 6:09:16 PM EDT
Shot guns are usefull for breaching the door and for use with less lethal loads and killing large animimals in rural appications and thats it. I worked long and hard to get our chief to approve AR-15's now were losing him I hope I don't have to go through that battle agian. If your life is on the line you want the best fighting tool available not one that will do in a pinch. PAT
Link Posted: 1/28/2002 7:56:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ar-nut: I think cops should just use regular 12 ga shotguns and that's it. Why do they need submachineguns and rifles to raid a house ? Its just an excuse to waste taxpayer money and buy the department some nice toys. Seriously, when cops raid a house they have the element of surprise and outnumber the people in side like 2 or 3. On top of that you are talking about a trained team of professionals going up against amateurs. I don't see the need for anything more then a shotgun.
View Quote
Ok, you are fooling yourself. Obviously not a LEO. I only have one thing to say. North Hollywood BofA Robbery. If the LEOs in that situation only had shotguns and pistols, a lot more people would be in caskets. So who is to say you are not going to run into those same heavily armed, body armor shielded tweaker like those two? End of story.
Link Posted: 1/28/2002 2:55:50 PM EDT
Thanks guys,a lot of good info here. ar-nut,you sir are a troll.This question was for the guys that bravely do this every day,thats why it is here not in GD!!
Link Posted: 1/29/2002 12:57:05 PM EDT
DON'T FEED THE TROLLS! It just encourages them. Buzzy
Link Posted: 1/29/2002 4:18:40 PM EDT
It depends on the mission.
Top Top