Posted: 9/16/2008 11:29:51 AM EDT
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At the risk of beating a dead horse, I will present my dilemma. I have no intention of starting a caliber war here, just merely trying to receive some input that will help me make a choice. I am an LEO that has a choice of the Sig P series pistols (220, 229, 226) as a service sidearm. My choices in caliber ar 9mm, .40, and .45. I have carried all 3 platforms listed as well as all 3 calibers at one time or another. However, I am faced with choosing the weapon I would like to carry for the rest of my career, and will have to purchase nylon and leather duty gear. Maybe you can give me some input as I "think aloud" here: My job takes me to areas that are often quite remote (backcountry), and surprisingly to areas that are sometimes very urban (downtown). I often work alone with little or no backup. I often work in areas where I may run into large critters (bear, elk, moose, etc.)and sometimes make a lot of contacts with people when I am working on the road. I sometimes have to put animals down with my sidearm, because they have been hit by vehicles on the roadway (yes, not ideal, but sometimes the situation negates the use of a longarm). I currently carry a Sig P220 .45. Recently, I have had some misgivings about the 220, although I have carried it less than a year now. I don't feel I shoot it as well as the .40 or 9mm at this point, although I have no problem qualifying with the .45. I am not just referring to accuracy here. I think I am a little slower from the holster to my first shot (anticipating recoil?). My magazine exchanges seem to be slower with the singlestack mags, and I seem to have more dexterity issues (fumbling) than with the doublestack mags I am so used to. For me, it seems harder to seat the singlestack mags at speed, and they sometimes seem to hang up when I hit the mag release. This may be due to me canting the gun over to the side in order to load a mag? I practice fairly often off-duty and not just when my department sends me to the range. Modern law enforcement seems to dictate higher capacity pistols, or carrying more rounds. A quad-stack mag carrier seems to be quite a load. Real or perceived, a loaded 220 seems to weigh pretty heavy on my hip compared a to a 229. However, I have never had the opportunity to weigh a loaded 220 or 229. I do know that I now have pain in my right hip (sciatic?), and am considering weighs to reduce weight on my belt. Furthermore, the 220 seems to be harder for me to conceal when I am plain-clothes or off-duty. Realistically, I know that most gun battles are a quick affair that occur up-close, that are over in a few seconds with only a few shots fired. However, I often think of worst-case scenarios (ex. North Hollywood bank robbery). I sometimes think I would be better off with the higher capacity mags of the 229 in .40, rather than the 7 or 8 rounders for the 220. I have trained under stress and found that magazine exchanges are not what you want to be thinking about under fire. There seems to be little difference in "stopping power" (for lack of a better term) between .40 and .45, particularly with modern, high-quality hollowpoint ammunition. But those 230 grain +P Federal Premium HSTs seem to keep calling me. So, my choices are either to stick with the 220 I currently carry, or request a .40 cal 229. A .40 cal 226 is really attractive to me, but it is only available to ME in 9mm. I am about to embark on several weeks of training that will include a lot of range time. I am debating forcing myself to learn the 220 during this time, or going to the 229 which feels more natural to me. Your thoughts are appreciated. I would especially like to hear from those people that carry a sidearm for a living, or have in the past. I know I may be overthinking all of this, but to me it is a serious choice. |
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First off, I'm not a police officer. My hat is off to you. I carry Sigs most of the time. I switch between the 220, 226, and 228 pretty regularly. I could be wrong, but my 220 seems to be lighter than my 226 when loaded (sorry, it isn't in front of me right now, I'm carrying the 226). The 226 is nearly identical size-wise to the 220, other than the frame being thicker in the grip area. You can use the same holster, obviously you'd need different mag pouches, but it is something to think about. I don't believe that either one is really easier to conceal than the other, I don't have any issues, (I'm 5'11 185) though as I said the 226 is slightly thicker. However, if weight is an issue, I wouldn't recommend the 226, as you certainly wouldn't be dropping any weight off your duty belt. I do believe, however, that of the 3, the 220 is the lightest. I think the 229 is an ounce or two heavier. If you're concerned about the number of rounds you carry, you might consider 9mm; there are plenty of good loads in 9mm and Mec-Gar makes 15rd mags for the 228 and 18 round mags for the 226. Are you allowed to carry the P228? You might find a NIB one, I did a month or so ago. About 3-4 ounces lighter than the P229R if memory serves. |
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I carry a HK USP40 in Colorado. Love the Sig, shoot my Dads and many of my friends all the time. Great guns! Bro... go with the.40! It has a flat trajectory, great fps, great energy transfer into the target. The round screams downrange and I have not heard of too much overpenetration. The Colorado State Patrol has carried .40 S&Ws for years as well as many Federal agencies adopting the .40cal. I like it because it is not the monster that a .45 is, and its not as small as a 9mm. Its the perfect compromise in my opinion. Hi cap, less weight, great stopping power! |
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It's a very personal decision, but for all the misgivings you've stated about your 220 (still a great gun), go with the 229. Even if it isn't what you'd prefer from this perspective, you're beginning to see that it's the most pragmatic. Now, how is your duty belt set up that you're getting sciatica problems? I can help you there... ETA: The 229 .40 can also take 226 .40 mags. Carry 2 full size reloads if your agency will allow. Sounds like they give you plenty of room to make those decisions. |
| If the 229 is what you are most comfortable with I say go with that. It conceals well, can take 226 mags for a few extra rounds and is a wonderful gun. With quality ammo, good shot placement, and proper training the size of the bullet doesn't matter a whole hell of a lot. Plus the 229 is lighter I believe. |
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My duty gun is a 229. My largest misgiving with it is that it is a .40 and not a .45. I love the .45 cartridge but the 220's limited capacity will always push me to the 229 (assuming you can only carry Sig). My 229 is accurate, reliable, and has a great trigger pull. I am happy with the gun and would recommend it highly. If you have issues with the 220, the 229 looks to be the answer. |
| Your post kind of gave it away... but i'm guessing you are a NPS Ranger. Though the 'few weeks of training' (versus months at fleatec) and buying your own duty gear comments steered me to think that you're possibly seasonal vs. a full-time protection ranger. Regardless, if possible stick with the 220 or if it just isn't working for you go with the 229. |
Agreed
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Maybe I am overly concerned about weight at this point, and the pain is something I will have to deal with regardless. My arrangement: Right-front= cuffs, keys, holster Right-back= Leatherman, glove pouch Left-front= Mag holder, ASP, OC Left-back= radio, flashlight ?- May soon be approved for Tazer Have pain on my right side.......... |
BINGO....hit the nail on the head! I am a long term seasonal headed to FLETC this year. Despite the love of the 229 by the masses, I see a lot of NPS guys carrying .45s. It sounds like you may be one of us?
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Seasonal!! Ahh... the good ol' days  Staying where you are or venturing to drier pastures?Seriously, you won't carry the same gun for your entire career. Just pick the one you truly like and get the railed version. You never know when you will want a light on there. Also, Sig will sell direct or give you the $100 discount/rebate via mail. You need to shoot them side by side and see what you like. Accuracy is better than capacity. If you aren't hitting your target, you are just making noise 
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Try keeping things off the backside altogether. Your close. From the buckle, left to right, try: mag pouch (vertical, takes up less belt space, better tactically IMO) ASP radio light glove pouch (small of back) firearm OC cuffs Keys/leatherman on either side up front. Put keepers where they need to be. If you did this right, there shouldn't be anything behind 3 or 9 o'clock except keepers and the glove pouch. Taser can go between the baton and the radio if/when you get one. Good luck! |
Yes, but I've been "around the block" a few times. I would like to have a railed gun issued to me, but they are not widely available yet. So, I will have to make due with the old classic. Not sure what you mean by staying where I am at...but I plan to stay with the agency. I hit my target with both guns...but there is a difference between "minute of dead guy" and bullseyes. I seem to fluctuate as bounce back and forth between the two.
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I agree, and carry a rifle (and a shotgun) in my patrol car. But there are times when I am off the beaten path and longarms are not available to me. I also agree that a pistol is not sufficient to be doing some of the tasks I would like it to do. But I would like to edge the odds in my favor when I have to compromise. Ever thought about what the best sidearm would be to put an injured horse down? Again, anything I would carry for work would not be the best for the job. But you have to make do with what you have.
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I think I am pretty close. I try to keep things off my back except really small items. Actually, my radio and flashlight are more on my left side. And I do carry my mag case vertically. I hate leather gear...too heavy! |
Your gear seems good to go. Your hips and back may just need some off-duty exercise. Doctors can't seem to do shit about sciatic pain, but some people have had good luck with chiros. 229 .40! |
I grew up on 100 acres with cattle, horses, etc. 9mm, 40, .45 are fine. |
.357 Sig is not approved.
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P220 still has reliability "issues" that may, or may not have been ironed out. There is still the issue with mags and the takedown lever disabling the weapon. Search 'Todd Green P220'. As for SIGs in .40cal, they are an improvement over the Glock, but I still am not high on them when it comes to longevity. My choice is an easy one, the P226 in 9mm. They are reliable, have a long lifespan, accurate offer a 15+1 capacity or a 20+1 capacity with factory mags(I do not trust the MEc Gar 'extended capacity" mags). Its hard to argue with 16 rounds of 147gr Ranger Ts. Under dept letterhead, you can get the P228R thats available in Krautland. Do you have to carry SIGs only? I ask because just 2 years ago, I had almost 20 SIGs, now I have 2(both P226s in 9mm). I have crossed over to the S&W M&P series, and I'm staying here. I absolutely love my M&P45! 10=1 rounds of .45acp in a nice size. |
Yes, I may only carry Sig P-Series pistols...
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Folks, I thank you all for your comments on this subject. After much deliberation, I have chosen the .45 caliber P220. I will eventually buy a 229 in .40 as a personal carry weapon. I will have a lot of free ammo to perfect my technique over the next 19 weeks. I already feel fairly comfortable with the 228/229/226 in 9mm and .40. So I am embracing the challenge of learning a new weapon since I have the time. Now only to find a decent quad or triple magazine carrier to go with my nylon web gear.... |
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I'm not saying this to jump your ass, but what the hell? The number of former and current issues with the P220 should preclude it from selection. The major flaw right now is the take down lever breaking, and not being able to disassemble the gun at best, disabling it at worst. Sure, SIG will fix it when it breaks, but damnit man, you are putting your life on the line, and you need to carry a piece worthy of it. Until SIG fixes the current crop of issues with the various "Bling 220s" I'd bypass them. Again, Google "Todd Green P220" on m4carbine.net. Go with the P226 in .40S&W if you just cant do 9mm. ETA: Again, I didnt want to come off as rude, I apologize if I did. As much as it pains me to say this, you might also look on sigforums. There are several threads with people complaining about their 220s breaking there. Also, check with Bruce Gray of Gray's guns. |
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Fail-Safe.... I appreciate your words. I do not disagree with you that the 9mm 226 is the best Sig made (reliable/accurate). I will have to research the things that you suggest I look into. Not sure I can turn back at this point in training without the Armorer getting "all up in my grill". Unfortunately, I got it in my mind not to shoot the 9mm right now. As much as I like it, the .40 cal 226 is not available to me for issue (and I am not able to buy one at this time). That is on the wish list. Unfortunately, in the research I have done, the opinions on what model I should use is quite inconsistent. I have been told that each model/caliber is "the best". And this is not just from internet commandos, but from other experienced LEOs, rangemasters, armorers, and even those guys that really get paid to use their guns for a living. In the end, I have chosen what a lot of people in my profession (that face the same issues) tend to carry in Alaska and the Mountain West...the 220 .45. As much as everyone seems to like the 229 in .40, I have heard more complaints about them than the 226/220. Are the problems with the 220 in the older models, or the newer ones with the rails? I have heard that the newer ones tend to have issues...I have an older model w/o rails. I have heard such stunning words about the 220...that it is one of the best out-of-the-box .45s made. I guess the evidence is showing that this is not true. I don't think your being rude. I have a thick skin. I appreciate that you feel very strongly about the points you are making, and that what you are saying is not merely an opinion (as is so often the case on the net).
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The P220 has had issues since its inception. The longest running one was the mags. When Sig went to 8rd mags, the issues got worse. It took them a long time to finally nut up and fix them. We must not forget the the P220 just doesnt have the longevity other .45s have. If I had to carry a DA/SA .45acp pistol, it'd be the S&W 4506. Anyways, back to the P220, then SIG goes and puts external extractors on them when they went forged. Depts started having major problems with that! The best P220, is the 2nd Gen P220ST with the internal extractor, stainless slide and frame. I know one deputy who has 15K through his, but he is very meticulous about changing springs and such. He advised me if I wasnt going to be so meticulous, I should ditch mine. The P229 in .40 isnt bad, but just like Glock, I dont trust SIG in that caliber, nor do I trust SIG in .357sig, but thats a whole different matter. You dont have to take it from me though, a man who does a fuck ton of work on SIGs, and actually semi-works for them, isnt too keen on them in those calibers either. Give Bruce GRay of Gray's Guns a call or send him an email, he's a very pleasant person to speak with. In the end, if you have already chosen the P220, try and get the steel framed version. Maybe even call SIG LE and see if they have a 2 Gen P220ST in the CPO stuff. If they do, get it, and have them drop the SRT into it, and top it off with an AEP. Get 8rd and 7 rd mags. Dont baby it, shoot JHPs through as often as possible, that way you know which mags will handle it. Check the feedlips often. Also, before I forget, kudos to you for doing your homework! |
Yeah...I would love a stainless 220...maybe as a gift to myself this spring. Until then, it will be a good test to see how much punishment I can put on this gun through spring, since it will be in a training situation. I will be putting more rounds downrange than I can afford to feed it. I would also like to try an SRT, as I sometimes "short-stroke" the trigger after shooting Glocks or 1911s.
Thanks, I did not take this decision lightly. |
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I will agree that it is a very personal decision and you need to find one you like. I started with a 220, then when I moved departments we were issued 226's in 9mm. A few years ago we switched (took up sig on the $100 upgrade deal) to 226R .40's. I like them all and felt when protected with any of the above. A 9mm with good ammo is a fine handgun and will do whatever you want it to do. Joe |
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Quoted: Sounds like you like the 9mm 226 out of the three.......I will agree that it is a very personal decision and you need to find one you like. I started with a 220, then when I moved departments we were issued 226's in 9mm. A few years ago we switched (took up sig on the $100 upgrade deal) to 226R .40's. I like them all and felt when protected with any of the above. A 9mm with good ammo is a fine handgun and will do whatever you want it to do. Joe |
| Our department recently chose the P-229 in .357 Sig for a overall duty weapon for the department. I have personally carried the 229 in .357 for the last 3 years. The sig rep brought all handguns to the range and the range masters fired all of the classic series, P-250, and the GSR. We chose the P-229 hands down as our duty weapon. I think the 229 in 9mm would be a great weapon for duty use. We agreed the 229 and 226 had pretty good muzzle flip in .40 caliber and made it a little difficult for double taps and follow up shots. I have read the 229 in .357 has more chamber pressure, but the recoil was more severe in the .40 caliber version. I don't know why but we all agreed the .357 was more controllable. If anyone has a good explanation of why this might be the case let me know. |
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Quoted: The 229 in 40 passed the DHS 10K round test. I believe it also passed the INS 10K round test in the 90s. While my experience with the Sig 229 has been limited, it's all been positive. Fail-Safe.... I appreciate your words. I do not disagree with you that the 9mm 226 is the best Sig made (reliable/accurate). I will have to research the things that you suggest I look into. Not sure I can turn back at this point in training without the Armorer getting "all up in my grill". Unfortunately, I got it in my mind not to shoot the 9mm right now. As much as I like it, the .40 cal 226 is not available to me for issue (and I am not able to buy one at this time). That is on the wish list. Unfortunately, in the research I have done, the opinions on what model I should use is quite inconsistent. I have been told that each model/caliber is "the best". And this is not just from internet commandos, but from other experienced LEOs, rangemasters, armorers, and even those guys that really get paid to use their guns for a living. In the end, I have chosen what a lot of people in my profession (that face the same issues) tend to carry in Alaska and the Mountain West...the 220 .45. As much as everyone seems to like the 229 in .40, I have heard more complaints about them than the 226/220. Are the problems with the 220 in the older models, or the newer ones with the rails? I have heard that the newer ones tend to have issues...I have an older model w/o rails. I have heard such stunning words about the 220...that it is one of the best out-of-the-box .45s made. I guess the evidence is showing that this is not true. I don't think your being rude. I have a thick skin. I appreciate that you feel very strongly about the points you are making, and that what you are saying is not merely an opinion (as is so often the case on the net). Quoted: I'm not saying this to jump your ass, but what the hell? The number of former and current issues with the P220 should preclude it from selection. The major flaw right now is the take down lever breaking, and not being able to disassemble the gun at best, disabling it at worst. Sure, SIG will fix it when it breaks, but damnit man, you are putting your life on the line, and you need to carry a piece worthy of it. Until SIG fixes the current crop of issues with the various "Bling 220s" I'd bypass them. Again, Google "Todd Green P220" on m4carbine.net. Go with the P226 in .40S&W if you just cant do 9mm. ETA: Again, I didnt want to come off as rude, I apologize if I did. As much as it pains me to say this, you might also look on sigforums. There are several threads with people complaining about their 220s breaking there. Also, check with Bruce Gray of Gray's guns. |