[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Department AR15 selection (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 6/14/2007 9:21:42 PM EDT
| The Chief has asked me to recommend a patrol rifle for duty issue to patrol officers. I like the Bushamaster M4A3. What are your ideas as far as full-auto tri-burst options. |
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I did a full work up on patrol rifles for my department a little over a year ago. I read a lot here and talked to some of the subject mater experts as well as some of the Range Masters from surrounding agencies. From that I submitted my proposal. Here are some issues. With burst or full auto fire your training time and budget will need to expand appropriately to address this capability. The reality is that most LE shootings are easily accomplished with semi-auto and the need for full auto capability is rarely needed. Talk to your area SWAT commanders and firearms trainers. You will find that they utilize semi way more than full auto. My old departments SWAT only trains to use full auto at 10 yards and less. This was changed after the Range Master team attended a Bill Jeans class and he helped us flush out the issue. Barrel length is a big consideration. Many Southern California and other LE Agencies are using suppressors (mostly Surefire) because of OSHA concerns involving officers who have lost their hearing from office involved shootings (usually the officer next to the guy shooting the rifle). When using a suppressor the 10-11 inch barrels make sense because of the extra length and the poor balance issues of a 14.5 – 16 inch barreled rifle with a 1 lbs. suppressor hanging off of the end of it. It also makes it much easier on the officer trying to get the rifle in and out of the patrol car. Some will make issues of the reduced velocity of the short barrels. But this is not a major issue considering the realistic ranges LEO’s use firearms at. When was the last time you heard of an American patrol level LEO shooting someone at 100 yards. For us rifles are just really big pistols because that is the ranges that we are using them. If your agency has no interest in suppressors then determine if there are any state or federal laws that prevent your auxiliary officers (reserves / part-time guys) from using a class three short barreled rifle. If this is an issue then your choice is simple, 16 inches. If not then see if you can get your hands on a 14.5 and a 16 inch rifle and see how they fit in the cars and what works for your AO. Twist rate is an area where too many people get too stupid about. Most LE are using 55 gr. Bullets but no one is going to advocate selecting 1/12 twist. So does it really mater between 1/9 and 1/7? Not really but keep this in mine, all new 5.56mm bullet designs are built around the 1/7 because that is want NATO is using. So the 1/9 may be good to go today but may be out of the loop in the future. 1/12 was an improvement over the 1/14 back in the day. In the end this will most likely be determined by which manufacturer you chose to go with = Bushmaster and Smith and Wesson will be 1/9 while Colt and LMT will be 1/7 generally. When I did my program it became very clear very quickly that the only two manufacturers that I would recommend were Colt and LMT. I like S & W’s M&P product line but they did not come with M4 feed ramps, a 1/7 twist or a 14.5 inch barrel, all of which were features I had decided that I wanted for our rifles. My Commander recognized Colt but had no idea who LMT was so we bought Colt. We purchased Colt model LE6921’s. It is a semi only 14.5 inch M4 flat top. In addition we purchased the following accessories for each rifle: - Surefire M500A lights - Troy Ind. Single point slings - YHM single point sling plates - Specter Gear double mag thigh pouch. We bought Big Sky 270 millennium version racks for the cars. This is the best rack I have ever seen or used. We issue a rifle to each officer. Some of the guys do not like the mag pouch, so we just ordered some Eagle LE version chest rigs. If they work out we will be buying some more. |
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I would not really suggest a F/A rifle for patrol duties. I am not totally against it but I only say this because of the reality that most patrol guys do not get the time / resources to train accordingly. I am not a fan of 3 round burst for LE applications, period. It is either semi or full auto. F/A is a great option for guys who get the time to train to become proficient with F/A types of fire. Meaning they are able to send as few as 1 or as many rounds downrange as they want, without having to think about it, each and every single time they fire the weapon. Accounting for every round is of course an issue. Reality dictates that generally only the tactical units have the time or luxury to get the continual, repetetive training that is best for F/A fire. I would suggest Colt and probably Colt. LMT would be another good choice, but did I say that I would suggest Colt? |
| Do some looking around. When trainers like Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers say Bushmaster has issues, you should probably listen. My personal experience with their guns has been less than stellar. During the ban, I saw a number of Bushmaster LE carbines that officers purchased with their own money for duty, or were purchased by their agency. The majority of them would not run out of the box. One group came to an instructor's course with brand-new LE carbines, and they spent more time trying to get their rifles running than actually shooting. These were all guns that Bushmaster marketed and sold as DUTY guns for cops, not casual plinkers. IMO, there is absolutely NO excuse for that. Maybe their guns are better now, but I wouldn't want to bet my life on one when there are much better choices available. In my experience, Colt and LMT both make a MUCH better product than Bushmaster. |
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My department runs nothing but Bushmasters; F/A Commandos, Carbine, M4 and A2 varieties. The only functioning issues we have ever had were related to cleaning and maintianace and those are few and far between. Bushmaster is as good as anyting else out there. MPD165 |
Kind of strange, but all the problems we used to have were with the Bushmaster rifles. Seems like after a couple thousand rounds, they develop problems. Most guys end up dumping them for a Colt, Armalite, or RRA. Bushmasters used to be our biggest headache, until the dept. went into a contract with S&W. Now those hoopties had a 30% return rate!!! ETA- stay away from the burst..... since it isn't an auto reset on the burst. You could also spend the $$ and get the new HK AR!! They still come up cheap through some of the distributors. Of course, morons parting them out is driving up the price! |
| I bought a Bushy M4 on my own for duty and personal use. I've had it for two years, shot many rounds through it and even took it through a training course or two. Its run great right out of the box. No problems, no feeding or extraction issues, no broken parts, etc. |
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I like Rock River or LMT. 14.4" with pinned on flash hider or 16". I like stick with light or government profile under the handguards to keep the weight down. My idea of a patrol rifle is light weight and reliable. Now go to an armourer's course to keep them running. All rifles in squad cars need some loving care to keep them reliable. Bucky145 |
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Bushmaster is a great plinker, but not something I would trust with my life, unless I had spent the money to replace all the internals with Colt or LMT. Shooting 10 rounds at the factory? Given that Some bushmaster bolts break at the cam pin hole at about 50 rounds, they used up 1/5th of the service life before the weapon ever left the factory............ Im not a Cop, just a gun plumber for Cops. When your shit breaks you might die. If you die, or even if you dont, my "fun" begins as to why it broke, and I dont get a PBA lawyer. |
I think the Bushmaster is a fine rifle. I do not however reccomend full auto or burst at all for a general issue patrol rifle. Semi auto should be more than sufficient. In fact, I can't think of any domestic policing application where full auto offers any advantage. I can think of a whole lot of situations where it would offer undue liability. Perhaps the Bushmaster Patrolman's carbine would be an excellent choice. |
Some break. MY Colt A2 that I bought with less then 300 rounds through it would double tap when you squeezed the trigger. The notch in the hammer for the sear was out of spec. I fixed it by replacing the Colt hammer with an after market one. Heck that is the reason I joined arfcom, to get help with that problem. I'm also pretty certain Bushy doesn't make their bolts. Anything man made runs the risk of being defective. |
| I have been using my personal Colt 6920 for patrol use. I have talked with several Officers at the department and most have little or no training which I have explained to the Chief may be an extreme liability issue with auto or burst. When I was in the military, at one ponit I was issued a full-auto and asked for my burst rifle back due to jams in the sand. Police Patrol wise I am suprised to hear anti-Bushmaster votes. Although I personally pack a Colt for a reason. |
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No need for full auto. However, Standard quality name brand manufactured AR - Colt, LMT, Stag, whatever. Get a brand YOU trust. Don't just rely on kool-aid drinkers or brand haters. Semi-only (No use for full-auto in LEO for a patrol rifle and rarely at all in LE in general) 16 or 20 inch barrel Collapsible or fixed stock, officer preference Must have either fixed sights or BUIS's Optics - Lots of options. Most departments allow red-dot's (Aimpoint/Eo-Tech). Some also ACOG/low power scopes. But most require baks sights in case of failure of the optic. A sling of some type A case, hard or padded for in the trunk, or a mount in the front seat area. Allow use of rails, vertical foregrips, and lights Several name brand magazines, at least 20-rd capacity |
We just jumped on to the state police bid contract. We got the state police price and this fiscal year picked up 50 COLT LE M4's Model# 6920's. For patrol you don't need full auto or three round burst, semi only is fine. We are planning to buy 50 each year till we replace all 200 COLT A1's we got from the military. We had to switch out all 200 selectors to semi only. THat sucked. |
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My theory is always keep it simple. Simple works well!!! Training is necessary. Semiautomatic is plenty good enough, as officers can press the trigger fast enough and with a controlled fire they can account for every round. Our patrol cars are equipped with an SLR15 Carbine that has the following specs. You will see that I kept the rifles simple, reliable, tough, and user friendly for the law enforcement role. SLR15 Carbine Patrol Car Specs: Chrome lined lightweight barrel in 1/9 twist Forged Lower Receiver with deep bevel on mag well, & mag well grip Forged A1 Upper Receiver Ergo Grip Same Plane Rear Sight Aperture (A must on police guns IMHO) Tritium Front Sight Post Sully Stock (of course!!!) Sing Point Sling & Mount (easiest for patrol officers) Single Stage Trigger Components (a must as they are battle proven) Ambidextrous Safety Selector Sully Oversized Trigger Guard Charging Handle with PRI Big Latch Two USGI Mags in a Mag Grip clamp Surefire Millenium Light   CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" Chief Instructor SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com |
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Quoted: My theory is always keep it simple. Simple works well!!! Training is necessary. Semiautomatic is plenty good enough, as officers can press the trigger fast enough and with a controlled fire they can account for every round. Our patrol cars are equipped with an SLR15 Carbine that has the following specs. You will see that I kept the rifles simple, reliable, tough, and user friendly for the law enforcement role. SLR15 Carbine Patrol Car Specs: Chrome lined lightweight barrel in 1/9 twist Forged Lower Receiver with deep bevel on mag well, & mag well grip Forged A1 Upper Receiver Ergo Grip Same Plane Rear Sight Aperture (A must on police guns IMHO) Tritium Front Sight Post Sully Stock (of course!!!) Sing Point Sling & Mount (easiest for patrol officers) Single Stage Trigger Components (a must as they are battle proven) Ambidextrous Safety Selector Sully Oversized Trigger Guard Charging Handle with PRI Big Latch Two USGI Mags in a Mag Grip clamp Surefire Millenium Light www.slr15.com/images/commander3351smallsm.jpg www.slr15.com/images/entry3403large.jpg CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" Chief Instructor SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com [/quote These carbines seem to be a real good choice for a general patrol carbine. |
+100 I have 3 Bushy's and 1 Colt and none give me any trouble. 20 Inch HBAR Bushy (Preban) M4 Bushy (after ban) 16in HBAR Bushy (preban) 1 Colt SP-1 |
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Whatever. Too many cops shouldn't have sharp pencils, let alone automatic weapons. Semi-auto rifles are a great tool for patrol. Full auto is a liability nightmare. Unless you have highly competent shooters who train with their automatic weapons on a regular basis, full auto has no place in LE. Even then, I don't think it's necessary when you are using .223 rifles with good ammo. |
Well then, whatever yourself, I happen to think you are wrong. You do not speak for all LEO's and there are times when FA is warranted for some of us. Granted it is not an every day/week/month occurance, but I would rather accept the liability than be outgunned. We do qual every three months with them though. |
You qual every three months. How often do you train with full auto? If it's not more often than every three months, you are setting yourselves up for a tragedy. And I strongly disagree with your contention that a patrol officer is more 'outgunned' with a semi-auto rifle than with one that has a happy switch. It takes frequent, constant training to be able to effectively use a full-auto ANYTHING with the kind of round accountability we must have in domestic law enforcement. I would much rather have my people put one or two well-placed rounds on target than touch off a burst that may or may not hit the bad guy, but WILL hit something. Training is much more important than full-auto capability, and the latter is NOT a substitute for the former. A well-trained rifleman with a semi-auto .223 is much less likely to be 'outgunned' than a poorly-trained one with a full auto weapon. |
This is good advice. There is a reason that Colt is the standard by which all other ARs are judged. Note that the claim is that "brand X is as good as a COLT". BM has a history of problems...they still don't use the correct height FSB and I have seen NIB rifles with carriers that were not well staked in the last month. It just isn't worth taking a chance when lives are on the line. Range gun...fine but not a life safety gun. Don't forget to budget for slings (Vickers sling from blue force gear with sling plate adapter). Lights are a must have on an LE weapon. You have to be able to see and ID what you are shooting...need the light. Figure out how you want to attach that light and sling. Rails are the way to go IMO...something simple like a LaRue 7.0 or a Surefire if your budget is tight. |
If bursts are kept small, than there is no reason they cannot be accurate. I'm not talking about mag dumps. Yes, qual is every three months and that is the only time that is alotted to training, but if the bursts are small then accuracy will not suffer. Again, you keep mentioning that YOU think a semi-auto is enough and that isn't always the case. You seem to think that they will only encounter one or two subjects at a time and that's not always the reality. Oh yeah, and where is the "tragedy" you speak of? If you are aware of your surroundings, this should not be an issue. We have all seen the videos of piss poor trigger discipline, excitability, lousy situational awareness, etc., but these are the extremes not the rule. As for an officer being outgunned, it has nothing to do with whether or not they have a "happy switch", it will happen. Best they can hope for is that they are prepared. They shouldn't rely on a FA weapon to get them out of a jam and hopefully they have the judgment to use semi if need be. That all comes down to their training. My argument pertains to numbers of subjects, yours seems to do with number of bullets on one subject. Yes, anyone with a couple hours of range time and proper training should be capable and adequately armed with a semi. However, when that number goes up, then what, hope he can pull the trigger in rapid succession? |
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What was the actual failure of the Bushmaster's that had problems? Was it actually the rifle? Could it have been bad mags? Could it have been shooter induced error like slaping the bottom of a fresh mag too hard with the botl locked to the rear, cuasing a double feed? Statements like, "couldn't get them to run" tells us nothing. Did they fail to feed, chamber, extract, eject, etc? Ddid the barrel fall off? Was there too much sugar from the powdered donuts in the action? (Soory, that one slipped). Or was it something as simple as the guns were taken to a training course without the benefit of a break in period? I know, some say guns should work out of the box but reality says to shoot at least 200 rounds through it before you trust your life on a new gun. I took a BM M4 upper to Iraq and 3000+ round later it still runs like a raped ape. I bought a BM lower when I got back and it sits in my safe today. |
The tragedy comes when your under-trained officer with an auto engages someone and forgets to fire a 'small, accurate burst' because they are stressed out and don't have the training to counter that. Those rounds that don't hit the bad guy have to go somewhere. Some time ago a SWAT officer in a city near me had this happen- he was using a full-auto HK .223 and engaged a bad guy with a burst. IIRC, one round hit the bad guy, the others went downrange and hit buildings and cars. Fortunately no citizens were hit, but they certainly could have been. And he trained with that gun a lot more than every three months. As far as 'hoping he can pull the trigger in rapid succession', we don't hope- we train our people to engage multiple targets on semi. We teach them how to master the fundamentals of marksmanship, then apply them rapidly when necessary. I don't see how full auto would be an advantage in engaging multiple threats unless you have NO friendlies nearby, which is a very unlikely scenario for my people. When you say 'it all comes down to their training', you are exactly right. My point is that I don't think training every three months is enough to allow officers to safely and competently employ automatic weapons under stress. My people get a LOT more than a few hours of training, but we focus on tactics and marksmanship fundamentals rather than trying to teach them to control an automatic weapon. I think you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this subject- nobody's mind is going to get changed by this debate. |
Fair enough. You sound like you know what your talking about, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt that where you work, they are not a necessity. The only issue I have with this is that you custom fit your argument to "your" people in "your" area. Back-up is not always around the corner, sometimes the bad guys are greater in number and have bigger guns, and on occasion you may find yourself in an area where no innocents are going to take a misplaced bullet. Given these are not your surroundings, but that is the other end of the spectrum you describe. I agree that every three months is lousy, I wish we had more range time with them. Unfortunately (for us  ), they aren't take home rifles, and I don't want to burn a day off to show up at the range in my uniform in this sickening heat just to be able to shoot some rifle rounds off in FA.
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I see very clearly where you are coming from. |
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ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=332868 These look like a very interesting option (although new). I don't care for the 1:7 twist rate and they are only going to be 14.5" carbine gas barrels, but if that's what you are looking for I'd take a look. Noveske seems very quality minded. |
| there is alot of bushy bashing here. before there was lmt and colts where like 4000 bucks there was bushy!! way better than dpms light years better than olympic. armalite what was that rra the same thing all we had to build guns that was good to go was bushmaster i have rifles built with bushy parts that are over 10 years old with no issues.buy a bushy the company will take care of you.. |
No, not at all. I can completely understand why you would not want to burn your own time to show up and shoot in that nasty heat. After all, if training isn't fun and easy, and you're not getting paid time and a half for it, what's the point, right? |
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Sparky and Rincon both have good arguements, but I have to go with Sparky on this. Most depts are afraid of liability. Its the whole What if that might happen. Even in an area that is more rural than suburbia or city area. But remember you got rounds that are possibly traveling over 1 mile. What if little johnny is out fishing with his dad a mile away where you where in a fire fight with a crazy bike gang. I'm with you Ricon in that I want to be well armed and prepared to fight and live through the fight. But truth of the matter is the public would not care that you made it out alive. they care more about whay your round hit little johnny or why your rounds tore up farmer brown's silo. They would then sue the dept and you. We all chose to do this job. So parts of it suck, but the majority of the job is rewarding. Just my 2 cents. |
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As mentioned already, if a department does not have the time or the resources to provide training for each and every officer for every item issued or approved then it should not be issued or used. The reality is that your average patrol guy may only get to the range for quals. And in the mind of the courts, quals do not equal training time so the individual, training staff, chief, Mayor and City will hold liabilities. This needs to be documented training time from qualified instructors that the courts will recognize. A well trained officer does not need to fire a burst from a select fire F/A black gun on F/A. However your department had better hope that they provide enough on going training to account for any possible issues if they utilize or allow F/A weapons. FWIW a proficient shooter using proper fundamentals and trigger reset can fire a semi auto weapon extremely quick. Almost making F/A a moot point. I know that this picture, which was posted above, is to show the surefire but please don't hold your rifle like this when you shoot.
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Ww have 12 Bushmasters of various vintages, 16" with collapsible stocks, Compact ACOGs, and single points + Pentagon Lights X3s. 8 of the Bushies were bought in 1999 and are a little purple. They had a problem with bad ammo from Winchester. I bought them because I had budget money I had to spend and there were no Colt's available. They work. I bought four more of them a year ago to give us twelve patrol rifles, total. The new rifles have shitty, almost painful to the hand, finishing on the lowers. They work, too. However, all of the carriers needed to be re-staked and the extractors springs/inserts needed upgrading. We also have 10 Colts that range from 6721s for SWAT to DRMO M16A1s with LMT uppers and a couple of Match Target Lightweights. I will not ever buy another Bushmaster for department use. I would buy an LMT or Colt. |
