Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
Posted: 2/4/2006 6:01:03 AM EDT



Alienation Concept:

1. The community is making more and more demands on police, yet tends to react to the police as if they were alien to the community.

2. In return, the majority of LEO's see their function as helping the public and become upset and confused when they find themselves feared, disliked, or even assaulted in the performance of their duties.

3. This isolation causes the LEO's to close ranks and develop what is called the closed fraternity and become interdependent upon each other and hostile to the public. Police silence is developed, where everything concerning police behavior is handled internally because LEO's believe public scrutiny is biased and fault finding with only the police being fair and truthful.




These are notes from a criminal justice lecture I had last week. I'm sure you guys have seen that all before, so what's your take on it?
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 6:21:36 AM EDT
must be true cause no one responded, lol

I am a LEO and that sounds pretty accurate. That mentality closely resembles the sue for anything, get every thing for free and never work for anything type people that we as LEO are forced to deal with on a daily basis. But you can bet your ass they know how to pick up a phone and try and get some LEO fired if the shit that there doing doesn't go their way!
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 7:13:45 AM EDT
That sounds like where I work.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 10:23:01 AM EDT
People and lurkers around here always complain about the "Us vs. Them" mentality. Simple and plain fact is IT IS "Us vs Them". You can't help but feel that way. below is a list of things that really irratate me about "Them:"

1 dispatched to family fight calls when there is no fight. Two adults (I use the term loosely) are in a verbal argument only and one decides to call the PD and then when we arrive want us to make them do whatever...

2. parents who call the police because their 12 year old kid told them to fuck off when asked to clean their room or won't go to bed when told (this one REALLY burns me).

3. Dispatched to a suspicious person call because some dude walking down the sidewalk "doesn't live around here and doesn't belong....I think he's casing."

4. "What do you mean you can't get fingerprints off of that rock!? They do it on CSI!"

5. Block Watch!

Police management doesn't help things either with this "community policing" crap either. It's really dissappointing to work for a big agency that will throw you under the car in heartbeat and care only about public opinion instead of whats right and wrong.

Just my .02
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 10:58:23 AM EDT

The community is making more and more demands on police


What do you think the cause of this is? I was thinking it is a symptom of the dependency big government has instilled, the mindset that "I can't do anything for myself because that is what the government is for". As an ancillary thought it occured to me that this could also be because the community member is likely to find himself in trouble (civil suit or even criminal charges) these days for taking care of small matters himself rather than asking the "authorities" to handle it.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 11:49:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FROST18E:

2. parents who call the police because their 12 year old kid told them to fuck off when asked to clean their room or won't go to bed when told (this one REALLY burns me).

3. Dispatched to a suspicious person call because some dude walking down the sidewalk "doesn't live around here and doesn't belong....I think he's casing."





Yea, these two are the biggest PITA calls to get. Another one.... Caller:"someone just rang my doorbell", Dispatch tells me "caller has not looked to see who it is, they are scared". WTF?? Calls to folks homes because their minor child won't listen take the cake............
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 2:41:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FROST18E:
People and lurkers around here always complain about the "Us vs. Them" mentality. Simple and plain fact is IT IS "Us vs Them". You can't help but feel that way. below is a list of things that really irratate me about "Them:"

1 dispatched to family fight calls when there is no fight. Two adults (I use the term loosely) are in a verbal argument only and one decides to call the PD and then when we arrive want us to make them do whatever...

2. parents who call the police because their 12 year old kid told them to fuck off when asked to clean their room or won't go to bed when told (this one REALLY burns me).

3. Dispatched to a suspicious person call because some dude walking down the sidewalk "doesn't live around here and doesn't belong....I think he's casing."

4. "What do you mean you can't get fingerprints off of that rock!? They do it on CSI!"

5. Block Watch!

Police management doesn't help things either with this "community policing" crap either. It's really dissappointing to work for a big agency that will throw you under the car in heartbeat and care only about public opinion instead of whats right and wrong.

Just my .02




I take it from your comments you feel community policing strategies are not a good idea? Care to elaborate?
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 3:50:36 PM EDT
That is an academic speak for, be too nice to people and they will file a complaint against you. haha. actually I'm finding that their is no rhyme or reason to getting a "beef". Handcuff a suspect, get a beef. tell someone to "shut the f' up" and get no complaint. Sweep a house for persons and weapons on a good suicide call and get a beef. Throw a handcuffed minority to the ground (he brushed up against my gun) and scream about beating his ass if he ever touched my gun again, in front of a bunch of his friends on Christmas 'Eve, never hear a thing.

Seems that it's best just to be safe, professional, and most of all safe, and if you follow procedure or have a good reason for breaking procedure you should be all right in the end.

It is amazing how many people think if they see you with your gun drawn on someone it means come over, light up a cigarette and watch the show.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 11:21:01 PM EDT
My best friend is a LEO and runs the community police program at our local PD. This actually fits his personality quite well as he is so outgoing and the life of a party. They have had excellent results with their program and the PD has very good relationship with the local community, except for the criminals of course. My buddy is not a tenderfoot cop either, about 15+ years in a few departments and he will choke crack dealers and make them spit out the evidence with the best of 'em.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 1:08:27 AM EDT
Being a college student and a reserve at the same time, I know that 1 is absolutely true. But, I grew up in the 80's and 90's so I'm not surprised by it. I've grown up with the vast majority of my peers being scared of the police or outright hating them.
Thus 2 doesn't really apply, and I don't know many officers that it applies to because we aren't confused about it. It's pretty well understood that the community is generally afraid of us (I'm going to cliche this one and blame the media, but I think it is a good place to start looking) and the ones that aren't we never run into. The ones that hate us and will fight we deal with constantly and are a minority. I know I got into LE to help out the people I'm never going to see on duty.
For 3, personally, I think that effect has more to do with the public (and the media again) being so willing to use hindsight and not judge events by what an officer knew at the time. I look at the internal investigation as a buffer. For any other crime the police investigate first to see if any crime has been committed then lay out what crime that was. Officers should get the same benefit, and that's what the initial investigation is for. If it turns up something criminal was done, hell yeah take it to trial. If no crime, leave the guy alone. Sometimes I think the public stops thinking that cops are people too and it screws up their ability to objectively look at what happened in some of these controversial cases. The guilty before innocent and trial by news is a problem too.

Just my two cents on that one.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 5:59:25 AM EDT
Those are some good comments above. I have noticed that the weakening of Americans by what they call the police for.

Many people complain about the "militarization" of the police departments. However, I have gotten FAR more complaints about NOT doing something than FOR doing something. People want to be taken care of. They don't see LE as a partnership with the citizens(before someone complains...I do think that LE are citizens too....I'm using it as a term to make a point). They see LE as the person(s) who solve any and all problems....including the ones that have been developing for years and yet we are expected to solve the problems in minutes.

I have noticed that many people call the PD to have us solve problems that could easily be solved with one person simply walking over to the other person and working out the problem between themselves.

As people call the police for dumber and dumber things, we sometimes end up with the idea that everyone in the general public want to be taken cared for....hence the statement among anti-government types "I'm from the government and I'm here to help".

I think Americans need to return to the idea that we take care of ourselves and family first and then involve the law enforcers once we have reached a point that the two (or more) of us can't resolve.

We are seeing the deterioration of America due to men failing to stand up and be men. I see pansy men on a daily basis. I see a lot of positive things in America but I also see a lot of crap. I hope the positive outweighs the negative but I'm not so sure.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 5:08:05 PM EDT
How about societies, the media, constant message to blame everyone else for their problems and not teach people to take responsiblity for their actions. Having been around for 21 years, 8 as an Explorer and 10 as a LEO, This trend only continues to get worse.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 5:15:54 PM EDT
On the other side, one of LE's greatest PR problems is traffic stops. 52% of citizen interatctions with police (per DOJ stats) were during traffic stops, and I guarantee people weren't happy to interact. You have to consider that any activity that teaches the citizenry to fear you whenever they see you is not going to endear you to them.

Funny thing is, I rarely meet on duty cops that I like. Too businesslike and it's never smalltalk with a cop--it's intelligence gathering. On the flip side, I have never met a cop off duty that I didnt get along with. Generally a good sense of humor (I like dark humor) and pretty smart.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 5:39:05 PM EDT
Its all about being a professional so as to not get complained on. Admin feels that if we conduct all of our traffic stops the samw way with everyone the likelyhood of getting complained on goes down and keeps the heat off of them. I try to deviate some but stike to the basics most of the time.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 8:26:32 PM EDT
It even extends to schools. I've dealt with lots of SRO's and even taught a few academy classes on juvenile law. It's sad. In the old days, two kids got in a fight and they spent a few days in in-house. Now some 12 year old girl tells the teacher to f-off and the principal calls the SRO in and wants her arrested for disorderly conduct. Every upset kid is about to blow the school up and the principal wants to be able to tell the parents that he set the cops on them and the cops did nothing. It's not his fault.

Link Posted: 2/6/2006 2:44:04 PM EDT
We had a 16 yo last night that was arrested for DWI. When mom arrived to pick him up, Juvenile 1st offender program won't allow us to jail them, he went off on her and the officers. On the way home same thing, calling mom a f_ing bitch and the like. We get called out to the house and he's run off but comes back, still going off on mom. We get him calmed down and leave, telling mom and dad to take him for mental eval or detox, still can't take him to jail, he's too intoxicated and Juvenile detention won't take him. If the parents aren't helping, the juvenile system isn't doing us any favors either. I can't figure where the anger is coming from, except the parents didn't dicipline him when he was younger. The bigger problem is that they aren't afraid of the concequences for their actions. When I was growing up, 70's and 80's, I was afraid of the police and my parents, respectful fear, and was afraid of the consequences of my actions. The problem seems to get worse evry year. Society is teaching people to find the reason for their mistakes but its more like their teaching people to play the blame game, blame the police, parents teachers or whoever.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 3:22:53 PM EDT
I have been in Law Enforcment since 1978 and things have changed allot in that time. These feelings that LEO's have are not new but I do believe that there is more mutual distrust now with both the LEO's and the public with each other. Some of it on both sides is probably warranted. There is a good book that was written by Mark Baker and it is titled Cops and is a very good read for both LEO's and others.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 4:24:32 PM EDT
I agree, policy, laws and the publics view of what we do make it a very complex arraigment. The media tells one story and television dramas make it look so cut and dry. LEO's inability, or unwillingness to explain a situation to a victim because of time contrains, call load etc., make all that more difficult. I came from a large agency to a smaller one and, at first, found I had more time to talk to people. As the city has grown, out of proportion to the department naturally, this is rapidly changing. LEO's are also prone to believe that they don't have to justify their actions to anyone other than admin. and anyone asking questions of any kind are promptly shut out. Who is the publisher of this book and where can I get a copy of it?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 1:50:29 PM EDT
Juvenile does suck, I am a Sgt. with a Juvenile Probation Department and there are some things that we (the system, at least in Texas) can't do to a Juvenile that if they were 17 their ass would be in the County Jail and tried as adults.

I deal with the little turds when they are high, drunk, suicidal/homicidal, sex offenders, you name it. But because they are "kids" the system wants to "help" them.

I am a former street cop and juvenile really burns me up sometimes. You get one in on Agg Sex Assault and they plead it down to SIMPLE ASSAULT no reference to the sex crime involved, 6 months probation.

But I get paid the same as on the street and I work 6:30a-3:30p, go to court only occasionally, transport occasionally, and sometimes still get to do and old fashioned takedown.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:00:28 PM EDT
Many departments treat community policing like a program....ias if it has a start and a finish. In fact, my own department calls it CPP (community police program) where we mark out in a neighborhood for an hour or two and then move on. It is basically a waste of time.
True community policing is not a program, it is a process.


Originally Posted By LastDefender:

Originally Posted By FROST18E:
People and lurkers around here always complain about the "Us vs. Them" mentality. Simple and plain fact is IT IS "Us vs Them". You can't help but feel that way. below is a list of things that really irratate me about "Them:"

1 dispatched to family fight calls when there is no fight. Two adults (I use the term loosely) are in a verbal argument only and one decides to call the PD and then when we arrive want us to make them do whatever...

2. parents who call the police because their 12 year old kid told them to fuck off when asked to clean their room or won't go to bed when told (this one REALLY burns me).

3. Dispatched to a suspicious person call because some dude walking down the sidewalk "doesn't live around here and doesn't belong....I think he's casing."

4. "What do you mean you can't get fingerprints off of that rock!? They do it on CSI!"

5. Block Watch!

Police management doesn't help things either with this "community policing" crap either. It's really dissappointing to work for a big agency that will throw you under the car in heartbeat and care only about public opinion instead of whats right and wrong.

Just my .02




I take it from your comments you feel community policing strategies are not a good idea? Care to elaborate?

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:03:44 PM EDT
Sounds like you got the plush job. I dont know what its like in other states but Texas, Tarrant Co. in particular, want to coddle the Juveniles when they should be taking an ass kicking like everyone else.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:56:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By trippletap:
Many departments treat community policing like a program....ias if it has a start and a finish. In fact, my own department calls it CPP (community police program) where we mark out in a neighborhood for an hour or two and then move on. It is basically a waste of time.
True community policing is not a program, it is a process.






I would agree if all you do is patrol a given neighborhood for a proscribed period of time with no other purpose other than being there....then yes....that's a waste of time. On the other hand, if you interact with the neighbors, get them involved in community projects, listen to their concerns, channel their energies to a productive end, and make them part of the solution, then those two hours could be the most productive time you spend all day. i would also agree with you regarding the program vs. process distinction.

Regards,
Gary
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:17:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LastDefender:

Originally Posted By trippletap:
Many departments treat community policing like a program....ias if it has a start and a finish. In fact, my own department calls it CPP (community police program) where we mark out in a neighborhood for an hour or two and then move on. It is basically a waste of time.
True community policing is not a program, it is a process.






I would agree if all you do is patrol a given neighborhood for a proscribed period of time with no other purpose other than being there....then yes....that's a waste of time. On the other hand, if you interact with the neighbors, get them involved in community projects, listen to their concerns, channel their energies to a productive end, and make them part of the solution, then those two hours could be the most productive time you spend all day. i would also agree with you regarding the program vs. process distinction.

Regards,
Gary



I work in a very large city. My precinct alone has 350K people and .47 officers per 1K people. I don't have time to interact, mess with community projects, or listen to their concerns. I need to take care of the call and go 10-8 because there is a list of priority 2 and 3 calls a mile long holding on the stack. Cynical, yes. But as patrol I don't have the time to do all the above. That is for community action officers and they only work 1st shift, one per squad area.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:01:08 PM EDT
The idea behind community policing seems solid, however that isnt how it plays out in my experience. To start with, you have to have people that are willing to work with you. Around here (the hood), that just doesnt happen. Second, it seems that listening to the community equals doing whatever they want, which results in us (the patrol offcer) getting bent over on numerous occasions.

From everything I've heard, the COPS concept is on its way out the door.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 3:36:10 AM EDT
If you don't work with the community and enlist them as allies, what do you suppose would be the alternative? Finding good people is tough but not impossible. Pehaps it may not be a strategy for all neighborhoods but in those where people are willing to step up, I believe it is worth the effort.

Gary
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:36:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LastDefender:
If you don't work with the community and enlist them as allies, what do you suppose would be the alternative? Finding good people is tough but not impossible. Pehaps it may not be a strategy for all neighborhoods but in those where people are willing to step up, I believe it is worth the effort.

Gary



And the key is finding people that want to help themselves. I think community policing works on a limited scale, but isnt the way to see max results in large departments. While it is good to enlist the help of the community, we have to remember that we can't always "hug a thug'; sometimes we need to crack a few heads. The community policing model, IME, doesn't allow for this.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 5:46:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2006 5:47:30 AM EDT by PBIR]
A lot of good points being raised. Here are some other points to consider that I thought were interesting:




"Three major problems in policing"

1. Selectivity process (refering to new hires) - Often times this is still under a "spoils system", that is a sort of nepotism/corrupt/good-ole-boy system. No standard hiring criteria. Questionable testing standards. Quota system often in place.

2. Administration - Most admins lack the general knowledge of budgets, manpower allocation, organizational theory & management philosophies. Admins are frequently promoted through the ranks & generally fall in line with the traditional systems in place. As a result they are unable to affect change.

3. Lack of articulated policies & guidelines - this one is pretty self-explanatory.



True?


Link Posted: 2/10/2006 8:21:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PBIR:
A lot of good points being raised. Here are some other points to consider that I thought were interesting:




"Three major problems in policing"

1. Selectivity process (refering to new hires) - Often times this is still under a "spoils system", that is a sort of nepotism/corrupt/good-ole-boy system. No standard hiring criteria. Questionable testing standards. Quota system often in place.

2. Administration - Most admins lack the general knowledge of budgets, manpower allocation, organizational theory & management philosophies. Admins are frequently promoted through the ranks & generally fall in line with the traditional systems in place. As a result they are unable to affect change.

3. Lack of articulated policies & guidelines - this one is pretty self-explanatory.



True?





1. Phoenix is so short they are hiring anybody they can with a good record, which is why most wash out in the academy or on FTO because they can't hack it.

2. The management kow tow to the city council who Kow tow to the minority activists who scream racism everytime you book a mexican for failure to provide ID. They even have this computer tracking system that keeps count of how many minoritys you arrest or give tickets to and if it goes past 3 discretionary arrests it sends a red light to your supervisor who must talk to you about it.

3. Phoenix's policy book is over 1400 pages (both sides). they say you can attach a name to every policy in there because the city does the usual knee jerk when somebody does something wrong and writes a policy about it instead of just chalking it up to one dumb ass.

Speaking of policy, the city just officially went to a no pursuit policy.......... and then told the media! you can guess the effect it has.....
Top Top