Posted: 10/14/2011 6:02:24 AM EDT
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I have a couple of questions about tactics in relation to the use of stop sticks.
Yesterday, an officer from Walker Twp. Police Dept an hour or so from where I live was killed when two bank robbery suspects deliberately ran him down when he was attempting to stop their vehicle using stop sticks. It seems to me that this is happening with increasing frequency and that it might be more easily prevented. Are officers not using their cruisers as a "shield" from the suspects as they are approaching? Would it not make more sense to use the vehicles hazard lights rather than the full emergency lighting suite on the vehicle to prevent the suspects anticipating miles away that there is an officer ahead waiting to deploy stop sticks? A car on the side of the road with its emergency flashers on could simply be a stranded motorist rather than a police officer in the eyes of suspects. It seems to me that if so many officers are being deliberately run down by suspects while attempting to deploy stop sticks, any increase in danger from the general public resulting from using only the hazard lights rather than the emergency lights would be more than made up for by a decrease in the danger presented by suspects who would intentionally run down an officer if given the opportunity. I'm sure that there are valid tactical reasons for doing things the way that the are presently done, but perhaps given the rise in similar incidents some reevaluation should happen in the interests of officer safety. Thanks for your input. |
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You raise valid points.
They should be deploying and using their vehicle as a shield. It's tough to do 100% safely at all times because the deploying officer doesn't always choose the spot to deploy. It's often a moment of opportunity. Ideally,being on the opposite side of the highway with a concrete median works well. |
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Our training department, just a few weeks ago, said "take those stop sticks out of your car and forget about them"
We are being trained in the pit maneuver and are elminating the stop sticks basically b/c of what happened yesterday. We had two deputies in the county to the north of us killed about 2009, they were hit by a fellow deputy while chasing a stolen vehicle, they were attempting to deploy stop sticks. |
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Our training department, just a few weeks ago, said "take those stop sticks out of your car and forget about them" We are being trained in the pit maneuver and are elminating the stop sticks basically b/c of what happened yesterday. We had two deputies in the county to the north of us killed about 2009, they were hit by a fellow deputy while chasing a stolen vehicle, they were attempting to deploy stop sticks. Sounds like a good plan. I know that many agencies in this area are not trained in the PIT, and its use is actively discouraged because it constitutes "deadly force". I've always felt that was a huge mistake. |
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We are being trained in the pit maneuver and are elminating the stop sticks basically b/c of what happened yesterday. I think this is half right and half wrong. PIT is an excellent tool and more agencies should train it and use it. Getting rid of stop sticks completely is a knee jerk. It's a good tool and one that you should keep in the tool box. |
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We use the Stinger Spike System and their training manual states "Never use your patrol vehicle as a form of concealment". Because of that, that is how we are trained. We are prevented from using the PIT in our SOPs and therefore not trained in the maneuver. What is the reasoning behind that? The squad car makes perfect cover (not concealment) from the most deadly threat while deploying - being run over. How do they want you to deploy the stingers? ETA: Deploying spikes is not a covert operation. It's usually done on a straight strip of roadway where the vehicle has no option to turn. |
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We use the Stinger Spike System and their training manual states "Never use your patrol vehicle as a form of concealment". Because of that, that is how we are trained. We are prevented from using the PIT in our SOPs and therefore not trained in the maneuver. What is the reasoning behind that? The squad car makes perfect cover (not concealment) from the most deadly threat while deploying - being run over. How do they want you to deploy the stingers? ETA: Deploying spikes is not a covert operation. It's usually done on a straight strip of roadway where the vehicle has no option to turn. That may be true, but it seems like some measure of concealment would make for a much safer (for the officer) deployment of the sticks. ie: Not using the full emergency lighting suite allowing the fleeing suspects to believe that the vehicle stopped on the side of the road is a stranded motorist for as long as possible making it more difficult for them to evade the sticks or to target the officer. Granted I am not yet a police officer and I'm speaking solely from my own thought processes absent any training whatsoever, it just seems to my untrained mind to make a bit more sense than what appears to be the current SOP. ETA: Just from thinking it through a bit it seems like the recommendation against using the patrol unit as cover/concealment likely stems from highway accidents where the patrol unit may be struck by an inattentive driver and then pushed into the waiting officer. However, it seems that might be a risk worth taking when the alternative is making yourself vulnerable to suspects that increasingly seem willing to use their vehicles as weapons. I'd figure that they would be far less likely to deliberately crash into a nearly 2 ton vehicle stopped on the side of the road compared to the relatively "safe" target of a 170-200lb officer. |
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We use the Stinger Spike System and their training manual states "Never use your patrol vehicle as a form of concealment". Because of that, that is how we are trained. We are prevented from using the PIT in our SOPs and therefore not trained in the maneuver. What is the reasoning behind that? The squad car makes perfect cover (not concealment) from the most deadly threat while deploying - being run over. How do they want you to deploy the stingers? ETA: Deploying spikes is not a covert operation. It's usually done on a straight strip of roadway where the vehicle has no option to turn. That may be true, but it seems like some measure of concealment would make for a much safer (for the officer) deployment of the sticks. ie: Not using the full emergency lighting suite allowing the fleeing suspects to believe that the vehicle stopped on the side of the road is a stranded motorist for as long as possible making it more difficult for them to evade the sticks or to target the officer. Granted I am not yet a police officer and I'm speaking solely from my own thought processes absent any training whatsoever, it just seems to my untrained mind to make a bit more sense than what appears to be the current SOP. I've been in chases where the sticks have been flung out in the dark on a residential street and in chases where the sticks have been deployed on a straight strip of highway with a lit up squad. It has less to do with the process of concealment and more to do with the intent of the person fleeing. To answer your question directly, yes it might be safer to use hazards instead of red and blues. However, when Joe Blow is driving home minding his own business, and gets distracted by the police chase and runs over a police officer with a dark squad and hazards on, the question will be "Why didn't he have his emergency lights on so he could be seen by passing motorists?" |
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When it comes to stop sticks, my guess is that there is about a 3% of ever getting far enough ahead of the fleeing suspect and finding the perfect place to deploy the sticks safely. More than likely if you get ahead of the bad guy then you are find a spot where you might be able to deploy them but not safely. I would rather take the damn things and throw them out my window in front of the car and hope they run over them.
but on this note... This is probably the best idea for deploying stop sticks that I've ever seen. Bumper mounted stop sticks |
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Policy here:
Stop Sticks= deadly force PIT = deadly force Chase = deadly force Don't ask, I didn't write it... Im thinking the only time we will see any forcible stopping techniques is if the guys just shot an officer. Or after a hit and run on the chiefs personal vehicle (it happened...  ).
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the only time i ever tried to hit a car with stop sticks and about the only time that it worked around here is when you have a guy thats running on city streets and you know that the pursuit was initiated by another unit who is chasing the guy towards you. Basically you find a good place to deploy sticks quickly and just hope that hes dumb enough and you're lucky enough for him to come in your direction and drive past you sticks as you yank them into his car.
That being said, another guy recently spiked the same car twice in one pursuit and we have had some guys successfully spike cars on the highway. All the cards and stars have to be aligned for spikes to work and i was always under the assumption that it wouldnt work out more often than would, so i put my safety first and the goal of spiking the suspect second. That being said, i wish that we could go back to the good old days (which im far to young to have ever seen) of just taking out tires with shotguns. |
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I keep seeing comments about how awful "stop sticks" are.
I am a stop stick ace. I have five succesful deployments with them. I have also had multiple pursuits as a primary officer, that were ended when other officers were able to spike the suspect vehicle. The officer I share a car with, he works days, I work 7p-3a, was hit by a suspect at appx 85 mph while attempting to deploy stop sticks. He has returned to duty since that incident. More officers die in car crashes, than while attempting to deploy stop sticks, does that make cars for LE a bad idea? More officers get killed while engaging BG's, than when attempting to deploy stop sticks, does that make firearms a bad idea? After all, if police didn't drive they would be far less likely to get in car crashes. If police didn't carry firearms, they would be less likely to confront armed criminals, and less likely to get in a gun fight. Stop sticks, just like a lot of other tools, have to be used prudently. Your car is not "cover" when deploying stop sticks. Bridge columns, jersey barriers, guardrails, big old trees, and the like are. Stop sticks should only be deployed from such cover, and only when there is enough time to do so safely, and alert the officers involved in the chase that stop sticks are out. ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––- I posted that in another forum a few days ago. |
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the only time i ever tried to hit a car with stop sticks and about the only time that it worked around here is when you have a guy thats running on city streets and you know that the pursuit was initiated by another unit who is chasing the guy towards you. Basically you find a good place to deploy sticks quickly and just hope that hes dumb enough and you're lucky enough for him to come in your direction and drive past you sticks as you yank them into his car. That being said, another guy recently spiked the same car twice in one pursuit and we have had some guys successfully spike cars on the highway. All the cards and stars have to be aligned for spikes to work and i was always under the assumption that it wouldnt work out more often than would, so i put my safety first and the goal of spiking the suspect second. That being said, i wish that we could go back to the good old days (which im far to young to have ever seen) of just taking out tires with shotguns. Ya'll don't do that??? |
| I deployed some for the first time about two years ago. Had plenty of time, deployed them , moved the unit well out of the way and blacked out. Deployed them perfectly, but was unable to retrieve them because the string on the cheap ass sticks had dry rotted, and broke when I pulled on it. Two Deputies from Kansas and a local city Officer ended up with one flat each as well. The suspect vehicle had two flats , but continued on for another two miles, bailed and got away. From that night on I always check my stop sticks, because there was no telling how old some of this shit is. |
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That is part of the problem.
Here, if the pursuing officers are notified that spikes are out, and run over them, they are at fault. There is NO REASON to be 4' off the suspect's bumper when they are about to go over spikes. Get close to where they will be deployed, hammer the brakes. Let the suspect run over the spikes, let the deploying officer clear the road, then "Get on it Mel!!". If the suspect hits those spikes, they will be slowing down. If not, you can catch back up. |
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the only time i ever tried to hit a car with stop sticks and about the only time that it worked around here is when you have a guy thats running on city streets and you know that the pursuit was initiated by another unit who is chasing the guy towards you. Basically you find a good place to deploy sticks quickly and just hope that hes dumb enough and you're lucky enough for him to come in your direction and drive past you sticks as you yank them into his car. That being said, another guy recently spiked the same car twice in one pursuit and we have had some guys successfully spike cars on the highway. All the cards and stars have to be aligned for spikes to work and i was always under the assumption that it wouldnt work out more often than would, so i put my safety first and the goal of spiking the suspect second. That being said, i wish that we could go back to the good old days (which im far to young to have ever seen) of just taking out tires with shotguns. Ya'll don't do that??? Im not "yall" anymore, i was "laid off" in march after detaining the chief's friend. That being said, when i worked there im sure i could have taken out a fleeing suspects tires, but that probably would not have flown even as well as the cheif scandal. |
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I just had ANOTHER successful deployment of Stop Sticks last night on a wanted person who also tried to run over one of our guys. He passed my location at about 115 MPH as determined by the following deputy. In fact, all of my successful Stop Stick deployments have been on vehicles going at extreme high rates of speed.
Stop Sticks are NOTHING MORE than another tool that can be used when appropriate. Anyone who says "get rid of them completely" is clueless in my book. The idea that "trying to put out Stop Sticks is too dangerous", and apply that train of thought universally, is STUPID. Yes, there are dangers, but PROPER training and tactics are what increase the odds of a successful and "as safe as possible" deployment. Stop Sticks HAVE A VALID USE in our job. When I deploy them, I try to find a place to hide my vehicle so the violator NEVER sees me or my car. That's the FIRST tactic I use. Second, if at night, I black out obviously, no hazards, no overheads, etc. if I can't conceal my car. Third, I try to find something to get behind like my car, a telephone pole, a guardrail, bush, etc. Again, I'm trying to simply NOT be seen. IMO, the best condition is a hidden vehicle, a hidden cop, and a solid structure to get behind. If those benefits ARE NOT available, then the decision to deploy or not needs to be made on a case by case basis. The problem I see with Stop Stick deployment is trying to do it out in the wide open. The violator sees you, sees your car, and are more likely to turn or swerve to miss the sticks... this is where the danger is... if/when they lose control over the vehicle, that's when bad shit happens. Stop Sticks ARE NOT the all-inclusive answer to stop a pursuit, no more than a Pit is. They are just one more tool available to help bring a chase to an end as quickly and safely as possible. |
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I just had ANOTHER successful deployment of Stop Sticks last night on a wanted person who also tried to run over one of our guys. He passed my location at about 115 MPH as determined by the following deputy. In fact, all of my successful Stop Stick deployments have been on vehicles going at extreme high rates of speed. Stop Sticks are NOTHING MORE than another tool that can be used when appropriate. Anyone who says "get rid of them completely" is clueless in my book. The idea that "trying to put out Stop Sticks is too dangerous", and apply that train of thought universally, is STUPID. Yes, there are dangers, but PROPER training and tactics are what increase the odds of a successful and "as safe as possible" deployment. Stop Sticks HAVE A VALID USE in our job. When I deploy them, I try to find a place to hide my vehicle so the violator NEVER sees me or my car. That's the FIRST tactic I use. Second, if at night, I black out obviously, no hazards, no overheads, etc. if I can't conceal my car. Third, I try to find something to get behind like my car, a telephone pole, a guardrail, bush, etc. Again, I'm trying to simply NOT be seen. IMO, the best condition is a hidden vehicle, a hidden cop, and a solid structure to get behind. If those benefits ARE NOT available, then the decision to deploy or not needs to be made on a case by case basis. The problem I see with Stop Stick deployment is trying to do it out in the wide open. The violator sees you, sees your car, and are more likely to turn or swerve to miss the sticks... this is where the danger is... if/when they lose control over the vehicle, that's when bad shit happens. Stop Sticks ARE NOT the all-inclusive answer to stop a pursuit, no more than a Pit is. They are just one more tool available to help bring a chase to an end as quickly and safely as possible. well said. |
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I just had ANOTHER successful deployment of Stop Sticks last night on a wanted person who also tried to run over one of our guys. He passed my location at about 115 MPH as determined by the following deputy. In fact, all of my successful Stop Stick deployments have been on vehicles going at extreme high rates of speed. Stop Sticks are NOTHING MORE than another tool that can be used when appropriate. Anyone who says "get rid of them completely" is clueless in my book. The idea that "trying to put out Stop Sticks is too dangerous", and apply that train of thought universally, is STUPID. Yes, there are dangers, but PROPER training and tactics are what increase the odds of a successful and "as safe as possible" deployment. Stop Sticks HAVE A VALID USE in our job. When I deploy them, I try to find a place to hide my vehicle so the violator NEVER sees me or my car. That's the FIRST tactic I use. Second, if at night, I black out obviously, no hazards, no overheads, etc. if I can't conceal my car. Third, I try to find something to get behind like my car, a telephone pole, a guardrail, bush, etc. Again, I'm trying to simply NOT be seen. IMO, the best condition is a hidden vehicle, a hidden cop, and a solid structure to get behind. If those benefits ARE NOT available, then the decision to deploy or not needs to be made on a case by case basis. The problem I see with Stop Stick deployment is trying to do it out in the wide open. The violator sees you, sees your car, and are more likely to turn or swerve to miss the sticks... this is where the danger is... if/when they lose control over the vehicle, that's when bad shit happens. Stop Sticks ARE NOT the all-inclusive answer to stop a pursuit, no more than a Pit is. They are just one more tool available to help bring a chase to an end as quickly and safely as possible. wow dude, its been a while since i got certified on stop sticks and watched the stupid video before walking out into the station parking lot and throwing sticks at the pretend suspect car, but i seem to remember them saying that sticks are NOT intended to be used on vehicles traveling at extremely high rates of speed and that doing such can be intrepreted as deadly force because the spikes are designed to slowly delfate the tires, thereby gradually decreasing the drivers control and forcing him to stop. Spiking a car at 115 can cause a catastrophic tire blowout at that speed and kill the occupants. |
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wow dude, its been a while since i got certified on stop sticks and watched the stupid video before walking out into the station parking lot and throwing sticks at the pretend suspect car, but i seem to remember them saying that sticks are NOT intended to be used on vehicles traveling at extremely high rates of speed and that doing such can be intrepreted as deadly force because the spikes are designed to slowly delfate the tires, thereby gradually decreasing the drivers control and forcing him to stop. Spiking a car at 115 can cause a catastrophic tire blowout at that speed. Bull. My agency was the one to convince the WI State AG's Office that spikes are not deadly force. We ran our own cars over spikes at 70, 90, and 110 mph, with an Assistant AG on board. The spikes don't cause catastrophic blowouts. Even at 110 mph there was plenty of time from the time the car was spiked, to get the car stopped, before the tires were completely flat under full control. Loss of control generally comes from the actions of the suspect, trying to swerve around the spikes, or att officers, not from the spikes themselves. |
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I just had ANOTHER successful deployment of Stop Sticks last night on a wanted person who also tried to run over one of our guys. He passed my location at about 115 MPH as determined by the following deputy. In fact, all of my successful Stop Stick deployments have been on vehicles going at extreme high rates of speed. Stop Sticks are NOTHING MORE than another tool that can be used when appropriate. Anyone who says "get rid of them completely" is clueless in my book. The idea that "trying to put out Stop Sticks is too dangerous", and apply that train of thought universally, is STUPID. Yes, there are dangers, but PROPER training and tactics are what increase the odds of a successful and "as safe as possible" deployment. Stop Sticks HAVE A VALID USE in our job. When I deploy them, I try to find a place to hide my vehicle so the violator NEVER sees me or my car. That's the FIRST tactic I use. Second, if at night, I black out obviously, no hazards, no overheads, etc. if I can't conceal my car. Third, I try to find something to get behind like my car, a telephone pole, a guardrail, bush, etc. Again, I'm trying to simply NOT be seen. IMO, the best condition is a hidden vehicle, a hidden cop, and a solid structure to get behind. If those benefits ARE NOT available, then the decision to deploy or not needs to be made on a case by case basis. The problem I see with Stop Stick deployment is trying to do it out in the wide open. The violator sees you, sees your car, and are more likely to turn or swerve to miss the sticks... this is where the danger is... if/when they lose control over the vehicle, that's when bad shit happens. Stop Sticks ARE NOT the all-inclusive answer to stop a pursuit, no more than a Pit is. They are just one more tool available to help bring a chase to an end as quickly and safely as possible. wow dude, its been a while since i got certified on stop sticks and watched the stupid video before walking out into the station parking lot and throwing sticks at the pretend suspect car, but i seem to remember them saying that sticks are NOT intended to be used on vehicles traveling at extremely high rates of speed and that doing such can be intrepreted as deadly force because the spikes are designed to slowly delfate the tires, thereby gradually decreasing the drivers control and forcing him to stop. Spiking a car at 115 can cause a catastrophic tire blowout at that speed and kill the occupants. STOP STICK® STOP STICK is the world's leading tire-deflation device for high-speed pursuits. Proper deployment occurs well ahead of an approaching target vehicle, with officers a safe distance from the "hit," yet in control of the device position via attached cord reel. Teflon®-coated quills penetrate the tire and act as valves, releasing air at a safe, controlled rate. I don't remember it... BUT I could very well be wrong. ETA: I have achieved successful Stop Stick deployment on three vehicles that were ALL going over 100 MPH... 1 on the Florida Turnpike, on on SR44, and one on C-466 (local county road). I have not yet had an opportunity to deploy sticks on slower moving vehicles. ETA: Nope, I just watched the training video on Stop Stick's web site... only says use EXTREME CAUTION when vehicle speeds are extreme, no such recommendation mentioned NOT to spike high-speed vehicles. The only thing they say NOT to use sticks on are vehicles with LESS than 3 wheels. Stop Stick |
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A very good friend of mine worked with Officer Slot. While I haven't specifically gotten any details it sounds like this was an intentional act by the driver. I don't know where he was or the layout of the location.
Using your vehicle as concealment may or may not help depending on speed, etc. Sometimes you can do everything right and still get killed. Spike strips are a very valuable tool that has worked many times over for us. I'm really not looking forward to another funeral. 
Joe |
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I just had ANOTHER successful deployment of Stop Sticks last night on a wanted person who also tried to run over one of our guys. He passed my location at about 115 MPH as determined by the following deputy. In fact, all of my successful Stop Stick deployments have been on vehicles going at extreme high rates of speed. Stop Sticks are NOTHING MORE than another tool that can be used when appropriate. Anyone who says "get rid of them completely" is clueless in my book. The idea that "trying to put out Stop Sticks is too dangerous", and apply that train of thought universally, is STUPID. Yes, there are dangers, but PROPER training and tactics are what increase the odds of a successful and "as safe as possible" deployment. Stop Sticks HAVE A VALID USE in our job. When I deploy them, I try to find a place to hide my vehicle so the violator NEVER sees me or my car. That's the FIRST tactic I use. Second, if at night, I black out obviously, no hazards, no overheads, etc. if I can't conceal my car. Third, I try to find something to get behind like my car, a telephone pole, a guardrail, bush, etc. Again, I'm trying to simply NOT be seen. IMO, the best condition is a hidden vehicle, a hidden cop, and a solid structure to get behind. If those benefits ARE NOT available, then the decision to deploy or not needs to be made on a case by case basis. The problem I see with Stop Stick deployment is trying to do it out in the wide open. The violator sees you, sees your car, and are more likely to turn or swerve to miss the sticks... this is where the danger is... if/when they lose control over the vehicle, that's when bad shit happens. Stop Sticks ARE NOT the all-inclusive answer to stop a pursuit, no more than a Pit is. They are just one more tool available to help bring a chase to an end as quickly and safely as possible. wow dude, its been a while since i got certified on stop sticks and watched the stupid video before walking out into the station parking lot and throwing sticks at the pretend suspect car, but i seem to remember them saying that sticks are NOT intended to be used on vehicles traveling at extremely high rates of speed and that doing such can be intrepreted as deadly force because the spikes are designed to slowly delfate the tires, thereby gradually decreasing the drivers control and forcing him to stop. Spiking a car at 115 can cause a catastrophic tire blowout at that speed and kill the occupants. STOP STICK® STOP STICK is the world's leading tire-deflation device for high-speed pursuits. Proper deployment occurs well ahead of an approaching target vehicle, with officers a safe distance from the "hit," yet in control of the device position via attached cord reel. Teflon®-coated quills penetrate the tire and act as valves, releasing air at a safe, controlled rate. I don't remember it... BUT I could very well be wrong. ETA: I have achieved successful Stop Stick deployment on three vehicles that were ALL going over 100 MPH... 1 on the Florida Turnpike, on on SR44, and one on C-466 (local county road). I have not yet had an opportunity to deploy sticks on slower moving vehicles. ETA: Nope, I just watched the training video on Stop Stick's web site... only says use EXTREME CAUTION when vehicle speeds are extreme, no such recommendation mentioned NOT to spike high-speed vehicles. The only thing they say NOT to use sticks on are vehicles with LESS than 3 wheels. Stop Stick hmm, guess my instructor must have over emphasized the whole, dont spike fast moving vehicles thing. I do remember hearing the whole dont spike vehilces with LESS than three wheels thing, which definately stuck in my mind. How many cops are out there spiking trike motorcycles and those old german motorcycles with sidecars? 
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I just had ANOTHER successful deployment of Stop Sticks last night on a wanted person who also tried to run over one of our guys. He passed my location at about 115 MPH as determined by the following deputy. In fact, all of my successful Stop Stick deployments have been on vehicles going at extreme high rates of speed. Stop Sticks are NOTHING MORE than another tool that can be used when appropriate. Anyone who says "get rid of them completely" is clueless in my book. The idea that "trying to put out Stop Sticks is too dangerous", and apply that train of thought universally, is STUPID. Yes, there are dangers, but PROPER training and tactics are what increase the odds of a successful and "as safe as possible" deployment. Stop Sticks HAVE A VALID USE in our job. When I deploy them, I try to find a place to hide my vehicle so the violator NEVER sees me or my car. That's the FIRST tactic I use. Second, if at night, I black out obviously, no hazards, no overheads, etc. if I can't conceal my car. Third, I try to find something to get behind like my car, a telephone pole, a guardrail, bush, etc. Again, I'm trying to simply NOT be seen. IMO, the best condition is a hidden vehicle, a hidden cop, and a solid structure to get behind. If those benefits ARE NOT available, then the decision to deploy or not needs to be made on a case by case basis. The problem I see with Stop Stick deployment is trying to do it out in the wide open. The violator sees you, sees your car, and are more likely to turn or swerve to miss the sticks... this is where the danger is... if/when they lose control over the vehicle, that's when bad shit happens. Stop Sticks ARE NOT the all-inclusive answer to stop a pursuit, no more than a Pit is. They are just one more tool available to help bring a chase to an end as quickly and safely as possible. wow dude, its been a while since i got certified on stop sticks and watched the stupid video before walking out into the station parking lot and throwing sticks at the pretend suspect car, but i seem to remember them saying that sticks are NOT intended to be used on vehicles traveling at extremely high rates of speed and that doing such can be intrepreted as deadly force because the spikes are designed to slowly delfate the tires, thereby gradually decreasing the drivers control and forcing him to stop. Spiking a car at 115 can cause a catastrophic tire blowout at that speed and kill the occupants. STOP STICK® STOP STICK is the world's leading tire-deflation device for high-speed pursuits. Proper deployment occurs well ahead of an approaching target vehicle, with officers a safe distance from the "hit," yet in control of the device position via attached cord reel. Teflon®-coated quills penetrate the tire and act as valves, releasing air at a safe, controlled rate. I don't remember it... BUT I could very well be wrong. ETA: I have achieved successful Stop Stick deployment on three vehicles that were ALL going over 100 MPH... 1 on the Florida Turnpike, on on SR44, and one on C-466 (local county road). I have not yet had an opportunity to deploy sticks on slower moving vehicles. ETA: Nope, I just watched the training video on Stop Stick's web site... only says use EXTREME CAUTION when vehicle speeds are extreme, no such recommendation mentioned NOT to spike high-speed vehicles. The only thing they say NOT to use sticks on are vehicles with LESS than 3 wheels. Stop Stick hmm, guess my instructor must have over emphasized the whole, dont spike fast moving vehicles thing. I do remember hearing the whole dont spike vehilces with LESS than three wheels thing, which definately stuck in my mind. How many cops are out there spiking trike motorcycles and those old german motorcycles with sidecars? To be honest... I'm sure an already bald or damaged tire could fail all of a sudden and not experience a controlled deflation... but I don't think that could be viewed as reckless or "foreseeable" given the inability for an officer to have an intimate knowledge of a given suspect's vehicle and the condition of the tires. I guess if someone crashed due to a blowout it would just have to filed under the category: SHIT HAPPENS |
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wow dude, its been a while since i got certified on stop sticks and watched the stupid video before walking out into the station parking lot and throwing sticks at the pretend suspect car, but i seem to remember them saying that sticks are NOT intended to be used on vehicles traveling at extremely high rates of speed and that doing such can be intrepreted as deadly force because the spikes are designed to slowly delfate the tires, thereby gradually decreasing the drivers control and forcing him to stop. Spiking a car at 115 can cause a catastrophic tire blowout at that speed and kill the occupants. Negative. We spike all the time at speeds over 100. |
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I just had ANOTHER successful deployment of Stop Sticks last night on a wanted person who also tried to run over one of our guys. He passed my location at about 115 MPH as determined by the following deputy. In fact, all of my successful Stop Stick deployments have been on vehicles going at extreme high rates of speed. Stop Sticks are NOTHING MORE than another tool that can be used when appropriate. Anyone who says "get rid of them completely" is clueless in my book. The idea that "trying to put out Stop Sticks is too dangerous", and apply that train of thought universally, is STUPID. Yes, there are dangers, but PROPER training and tactics are what increase the odds of a successful and "as safe as possible" deployment. Stop Sticks HAVE A VALID USE in our job. When I deploy them, I try to find a place to hide my vehicle so the violator NEVER sees me or my car. That's the FIRST tactic I use. Second, if at night, I black out obviously, no hazards, no overheads, etc. if I can't conceal my car. Third, I try to find something to get behind like my car, a telephone pole, a guardrail, bush, etc. Again, I'm trying to simply NOT be seen. IMO, the best condition is a hidden vehicle, a hidden cop, and a solid structure to get behind. If those benefits ARE NOT available, then the decision to deploy or not needs to be made on a case by case basis. The problem I see with Stop Stick deployment is trying to do it out in the wide open. The violator sees you, sees your car, and are more likely to turn or swerve to miss the sticks... this is where the danger is... if/when they lose control over the vehicle, that's when bad shit happens. Stop Sticks ARE NOT the all-inclusive answer to stop a pursuit, no more than a Pit is. They are just one more tool available to help bring a chase to an end as quickly and safely as possible. This is well worded. Only thing I would add and where my experience is different is that during our chases, we will typically have three units involved. Other available units are either blocking off intersections with their emergency lights on or setting up spikes. I believe after the suspect has seen 3-4 squads ahead of him at intersections with emergency lights on he is less reluctant to pass a squad ahead of him that unbeknownst to the suspect is deploying sticks. I like the idea of a covert deployment but the circumstances need to be right. Also, as a guy who has been spiked three different times by friendly fire, the deploying unit needs to let the guys in the chase know where and when they are deploying and don't forget to yank the dam things back in. 
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A very good friend of mine worked with Officer Slot. While I haven't specifically gotten any details it sounds like this was an intentional act by the driver. I don't know where he was or the layout of the location. Using your vehicle as concealment may or may not help depending on speed, etc. Sometimes you can do everything right and still get killed. Spike strips are a very valuable tool that has worked many times over for us. I'm really not looking forward to another funeral.
Joe My understanding is that there is absolutely no doubt that the act was intentional. I haven't heard why they're so sure, but I don't doubt them. Unfortunately this seems to be anything but an isolated occurrence anymore. Apparently a suspect a couple of weeks ago attempted to run over one of the deputies that my dad works with, fortunately without success. Currently my dad is telling anyone that will listen, and some that will not, that everyone needs to be retrained in the use of stop sticks to ensure that nobody is taking chances that they shouldn't be taking. |
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A very good friend of mine worked with Officer Slot. While I haven't specifically gotten any details it sounds like this was an intentional act by the driver. I don't know where he was or the layout of the location. Using your vehicle as concealment may or may not help depending on speed, etc. Sometimes you can do everything right and still get killed. Spike strips are a very valuable tool that has worked many times over for us. I'm really not looking forward to another funeral.
Joe My understanding is that there is absolutely no doubt that the act was intentional. I haven't heard why they're so sure, but I don't doubt them. Unfortunately this seems to be anything but an isolated occurrence anymore. Apparently a suspect a couple of weeks ago attempted to run over one of the deputies that my dad works with, fortunately without success. Currently my dad is telling anyone that will listen, and some that will not, that everyone needs to be retrained in the use of stop sticks to ensure that nobody is taking chances that they shouldn't be taking. This not a bad idea.......but getting rid of the spikes all together is ridiculous. Its a dangerous job...Its why we do it. |
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I keep seeing comments about how awful "stop sticks" are. I am a stop stick ace. I have five succesful deployments with them. I have also had multiple pursuits as a primary officer, that were ended when other officers were able to spike the suspect vehicle. The officer I share a car with, he works days, I work 7p-3a, was hit by a suspect at appx 85 mph while attempting to deploy stop sticks. He has returned to duty since that incident. More officers die in car crashes, than while attempting to deploy stop sticks, does that make cars for LE a bad idea? More officers get killed while engaging BG's, than when attempting to deploy stop sticks, does that make firearms a bad idea? After all, if police didn't drive they would be far less likely to get in car crashes. If police didn't carry firearms, they would be less likely to confront armed criminals, and less likely to get in a gun fight. Stop sticks, just like a lot of other tools, have to be used prudently. Your car is not "cover" when deploying stop sticks. Bridge columns, jersey barriers, guardrails, big old trees, and the like are. Stop sticks should only be deployed from such cover, and only when there is enough time to do so safely, and alert the officers involved in the chase that stop sticks are out. ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––- I posted that in another forum a few days ago. Yup, what you just said. When I was on the street I was all hung up on getting my stop stick ace (when I used that term I thought I was the only one to use it BTW  ). At any rate, on my third deployment I got danger close. So close one of the pursuing officers was like, "Damn Sarge that wasn't cool. You scared the shit outta me." Much to my embarrassment, he was right. I guess I was mistakenly feeling 10 feet tall ,bulletproof, and invisible. I've replayed that scene over and over and come to realize how dangerous it truly is and how the deployment must take into account officer safety. Everything Oly said is sage advice.
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Quoted: When it comes to stop sticks, my guess is that there is about a 3% of ever getting far enough ahead of the fleeing suspect and finding the perfect place to deploy the sticks safely. More than likely if you get ahead of the bad guy then you are find a spot where you might be able to deploy them but not safely. I would rather take the damn things and throw them out my window in front of the car and hope they run over them. but on this note... This is probably the best idea for deploying stop sticks that I've ever seen. Bumper mounted stop sticks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWc4EZ0d0oI Anyone here have one of these?
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I've successfully deployed stop sticks in the past and I can say that barring an extreme circumstance I will not attempt to deploy them again due to the danger involved. Mind telling us the story? No good story really. The last time I deployed sticks it was on a box truck which had blacked out and was being pursued at a very high speed. When the officers chasing the truck backed off due to the stick deployment I couldn't see the truck until it was right on top of me. When the truck hit the sticks it sent them flying in my direction. The only cover I had was my vehicle and a concrete pole. It wouldn't have been able to move out of the way if the truck had attempted to run me over. It was just a little too close for comfort. It was only a property crime. I should have chosen a better location to deploy the sticks but I was amped up and focused on stopping the truck. If I ever deploy sticks again it will only be for a serious offense and I will pick the location of deployment with my past experiences in mind. I'm not telling anyone else not to deploy sticks only to be careful when they do. Just my $.02 |
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Quoted: The officer I share a car with, he works days, I work 7p-3a, was hit by a suspect at appx 85 mph while attempting to deploy stop sticks. He has returned to duty since that incident. Is that the one on Dash Cam that I've seen at training the last couple weeks or so? Looked like a deployment on the interstate. |
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The officer I share a car with, he works days, I work 7p-3a, was hit by a suspect at appx 85 mph while attempting to deploy stop sticks. He has returned to duty since that incident. Is that the one on Dash Cam that I've seen at training the last couple weeks or so? Looked like a deployment on the interstate. It just may be. USH 151. |