Posted: 5/1/2010 6:49:20 PM EDT
| Our PD has been conducting Simuntion training (actually it's FX training but you get the point) for the last 3 years. All of the Officers have been scheduled to go through the 8 hour block of instruction twice a year. The majority of the scenarios are active shooters in buildings but this time high risk vehicle stops have been added. Here's my point, there are 3 Sgts who have refused to train in anyway in these scenarios. One Sgt even went as far as to say that he would charge the person who shot him with FX ammuinition for Assault On a P.O. They have all said that the FX rounds are painful and that they don't feel the need to train like this. Our current training cycle with the FX is in progress and a break down in command is beginning. Now there are a group of ROD officers that are saying if the Sgts aren't being required to train in FX than they shouldn't either. This will be coming to a head shortly because the Executive/Training Staff see the real world need for this training (as do 99 % of the Officers in the PD). Does anyone elses PD have these issues are is mine the only PD with the ROD shitheads? |
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Quoted: Our PD has been conducting Simuntion training (actually it's FX training but you get the point) for the last 3 years. All of the Officers have been scheduled to go through the 8 hour block of instruction twice a year. The majority of the scenarios are active shooters in buildings but this time high risk vehicle stops have been added. Here's my point, there are 3 Sgts who have refused to train in anyway in these scenarios. One Sgt even went as far as to say that he would charge the person who shot him with FX ammuinition for Assault On a P.O. They have all said that the FX rounds are painful and that they don't feel the need to train like this. Our current training cycle with the FX is in progress and a break down in command is beginning. Now there are a group of ROD officers that are saying if the Sgts aren't being required to train in FX than they shouldn't either. This will be coming to a head shortly because the Executive/Training Staff see the real world need for this training (as do 99 % of the Officers in the PD). Does anyone elses PD have these issues are is mine the only PD with the ROD shitheads? In our Department, everyone had to participate. If someone refused they were given a direct order to participate. If they refused, progressive discipline was waiting in the wings. |
| Holy cow, what a punch of sissies. Sims is the best kind of training you can do period. Sure, they may sting a little bit but tha the point. If they refuse to do the training they should be disciplined for it and ridiculed. They are cops and if they don't want to get hit with a little water paint they need to think about a different career because bad guys will be shooting the real thing at them and if they don't want to take sims you know they will tuck tail and run when the real thing happens. |
| So that everyone understands, our PD has 35 Sgts but these 3 are all on the same shift/work group so they tend to feed off of each other. The Chief and Training Staff are pissed and this situation is about to be resolved but it pisses me off that somehow they feel that they are above training scenarios. For the record all 3 Sgts have more than 25 years in and are old school. |
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+1 to what everyone has said regarding those SGTs being idiots. You should be thankful that your department has sims training. SO many don't / won't offer it for their officers.
It's not surprising that there is resistance to sims training. Look at how many CCW holders don't train or train but won't take sims training. :-| Mike |
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Training has come a long way over the past 25 years. They all should be counselled and told that they WILL participate as will everyone else. With that kind of attitude, I would demote them if that's the way they feel. If they don't want to lead by example, then they can follow someone who wants to lead.
In my agency, we use airsoft. Airsoft does have some drawbacks and I do like simunitions. Two advantages that airsoft has over simunitions is that airsoft is MUCH cheaper to train with and airsoft does hurt a little less....so there is less bitching about getting shot. Bottom line, I hope the chief mans up and shitcans them. If they would bitch about something like that, they probably spend a lot of time bitching about other things and probably can never be found when work needs to be done or when there is a slight risk of danger. |
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Quoted:
So that everyone understands, our PD has 35 Sgts but these 3 are all on the same shift/work group so they tend to feed off of each other. The Chief and Training Staff are pissed and this situation is about to be resolved but it pisses me off that somehow they feel that they are above training scenarios. For the record all 3 Sgts have more than 25 years in and are old school. Maybe it's time to think about retirement... they've put their time in, and it's just not like it used to be. If nothing else, maybe they should take advantage of the fact that they've "paid there dues" all these years and have "earned" the privilege of not having to "walk the beat". They could maybe put all that "experience" to use "teaching" the new guys the "tricks of the trade". I like sims training. It's required for us, and as part of qualifications, you have to double tap an instructor "to show that if the time comes... you could/would level a weapon at another Human and actually squeeze the trigger". It sounds silly to some internet commandos... but military research has shown it is NOT a given. |
| I am an instructor for my department and have a fellow instructor that refuses to take part in Sims training. This guy has been an instructor longer than the rest of us and uses his seniority as an excuse for not having to take part. I personally think he loses a lot of credibility by refusing to take part in the training. I have no problem playing bad guy all day and letting the students shoot the hell out of me. I have never seen this guy take a single shot, in fact he avoids being anywhere near us while the training is being conducted. I think this is because he knows there are several instructors looking to shoot him if the chance presents itself. During other training we have had supervisors refuse to take part. One Sergeant refused to take part in DT training due to his belief that the wrestling mats would guve him herpes. The DT staff went as far as to clean the mats in front of him and he still refused to train. |
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We had a few ROD's bitch about Sim training last year. As one of the lead firearms instructors, I said fine, sit over there and watch. Called the assistant chief (former tac team commander), told him what's up, and had letters putting them on the rubber gun squad for two weeks answering phones before their butts hit the grass. No more bitching after that.
I have zero patience for people like that. If it sucks so bad, go do something else with your life and quit wasting my time. The good taxpayers of my city and state are not paying us to snivel and dodge quality training. |
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I couldnt imagine ANYONE in my agency having an attitude like that!! Some guys don't like being pulled off the road for training and may bitch and moan about it, but when it comes time to actually perform in the scenarios, they go at it with 100% energy. It sounds like yer agency has allowed for these guys to be candy asses for so long that it seems natural. Besides, if yer doing what yer supposed to do, then you shouldn't get hit!! It sounds like someone higher up needs to give them an order and if they refuse, its insubordination write up time!!
What a bunch of bitches!! Seriously I can't even believe there are people with that kind of attitude in LE! 
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I hear the DARC instructors like to SIM students in the ass when the they catch them slipping. To the point students don cardboard butt protection the remaining days. Teaches a 24hr lesson.
Now, considering the Sgts just may spend a lot of time in a chair... Hmmm... |
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Quoted: So that everyone understands, our PD has 35 Sgts but these 3 are all on the same shift/work group so they tend to feed off of each other. The Chief and Training Staff are pissed and this situation is about to be resolved but it pisses me off that somehow they feel that they are above training scenarios. For the record all 3 Sgts have more than 25 years in and are old school. Both Plano officers who were involved in shootings last year had over 25. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
So that everyone understands, our PD has 35 Sgts but these 3 are all on the same shift/work group so they tend to feed off of each other. The Chief and Training Staff are pissed and this situation is about to be resolved but it pisses me off that somehow they feel that they are above training scenarios. For the record all 3 Sgts have more than 25 years in and are old school. Maybe it's time to think about retirement... they've put their time in, and it's just not like it used to be. If nothing else, maybe they should take advantage of the fact that they've "paid there dues" all these years and have "earned" the privilege of not having to "walk the beat". They could maybe put all that "experience" to use "teaching" the new guys the "tricks of the trade". I like sims training. It's required for us, and as part of qualifications, you have to double tap an instructor "to show that if the time comes... you could/would level a weapon at another Human and actually squeeze the trigger". It sounds silly to some internet commandos... but military research has shown it is NOT a given. Doesn't sound silly to me at all. |
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Had a similar issue in regards to firearms qualifications, some would come in and qualify with score - but the mechanics (reloads, stoppage clearance, etc.) were flawed and these guys didn't care even after they were given remedial, this went on to the tune of a couple of training cycles. All these guys (5-6 from the same division) had on about 150,000 years between them and wouldn't listen to anything "I've been doing this since you were in diapers" - I'm sure you've all heard that. I finally got fed up and drafted a letter/memo to the agency executive to the extent of "on this date officer suck demonstrated an inability to complete the defined job task. After remedial training, officer suck still could not perform the required job task as dictated by training staff and approved under policy. As such, I am recommending that officer suck be removed from duty immediately pending termination proceedings for inability to perform required job functions and as such officer suck is a liability to themselves, their co-workers, the agency, and the public in general." Upon the last range session with this group of officer sucks I took them into the classroom and put said letter in front of them and explained that they could participate in training and comply with training directives or I would deliver the letter they had in front of them to the boss.
Something similar might work for you, it might not. I have had the similar complaints with the marking cartridges, we tell them not to screw up and they probably won't get shot - and if you do this hurts less than a real bullet! Screw up here not on the street. These guys you mention are cowards pure and simple, I'm sure that a carefully worded memo for them to sign stating they refused to participate in training because they were afraid would be a good starting point. I'm curious, if you have a policy manual does it dictate that a range/training officer is the ranking officer in charge during a training session? If so, schedule the Sgt.'s for training and when they show up - order them to participate, if they refuse advise them that you are the ranking officer in charge and again order them to participate - if they refuse then utilize insubordination for disciplinary proceedings. Of course, an audio/video of this "training" session would be good as well - just to cover yourself! Good Luck! |
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You have got to be kidding!
I did sim round training today, and thats kind of why I clicked on this thread.... the 3 instructors we had were all swat guys that have used sims all the time, and they didn't even wear long sleeve shirts. the one playing the bad guy got hit with several hundred rounds today, and he never complained about it. I got hit once with them, and it gets your attention, but thats it. I wouldn't even go as far as saying it hurts. cause it didn't hurt (well other than my pride). I think its a great way to train, I'd do sim round training every week if they'd let me. |
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Last time we trained with it, not even a single complaint. Even from the guy who caught one below his mask. It penetrated the skin, but he just picked it out and kept going. You should tell the Sgt's who complained to send their wives or daughters to train in their place next time, 'cause ya can't stand all the whining.....
ETA: for comment, I certainly don't want to rely on someone to back me up who is afraid of the "sting" of simunition. The psych exam should have washed out people like that.....geez. |
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The sim rounds can cause blisters and bruising if you get hit on skin that covers hard bones like knuckles or collarbones and such. That being said, its better to bleed in training than die in combat. Without going into details, i caught a faceload of wood shrapnel in private training, it wasnt appreciated or expected, but it tought me alot about my gear and taught a few guys something that may save a life one day.
i have found that the best protection during sims training is to wear gloves. when you get excited in sims training you look at, and shoot at the threat. i was getting shot in the gun and hands alot and sims rounds hurt your knuckles. |
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I LOVE sim training! It is the shit, you get to SHOOT your co-workers! lol I think you should take all the sim guns and the guys on the pussy shift should come in on shift change and light their asses up EVERY time they pull some shit like that! lmao We had NO problem doing some stuff like that in the Navy. :)
There is a County Sheriff's officer near where I live, that if you fail to qualify ONE time on the range, you are FIRED. NO retake, NO remedial, just pass or get the fuck out. The reasoning is that you don't get to have 2nd chances on the street....SO, keep yourself ready. They qualify twice a year. Some say that is just too much pressure to put on someone who is taking a test..........to have job on the line..........but as someone who has been shot before, the pressure doesn't compare to having a gun pulled on you then having to hit the 3, 4, or 5 ring!!! If these guys don't want to train to save lives, esp, to save fellow officers lives (2, 3, 4, 5 man entry teams) then they should get the hell out!!! 
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I'll say this though, do your training correctly. I don't think it does anyone any good to have someone pop down from the ceiling tiles like Sam Fisher and assassinate all your officers. Those type of scenarios really put a bad taste in peoples mouths about sims training.
Our agency does really good with this. If you do the scenario correctly no one gets shot and I think thats just as important. Of course there are the shoot scenarios also, but I think a good balance is important IMO. |
I'm going up to the State Police academy tomorrow to roleplay as a shitbag for the cadets. Last time I went up I had a sim gun and so they each one I faced. I "killed" a few but also died several deaths myself. I'm looking forward to helping the cadets learn something! I usually wear a t-shirt, sweatshirt, and jeans when I play a shitbag. I also never forget to wear my cup as well 
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I agree with everything that has been said above.
I'll add this: As sergeants, they are not only supervisors, but also leaders and mentors. IOW, they should be the fucking FIRST people to volunteer for training, not the ones shirking their responsibility. 
If they don't want to demonstrate this leadership, they don't need to have chevrons on their shirts. 
And whoever said it was the chief and captains' fault, I think you're exactly right. |
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Just repeating what everyone else has already stated...failure to train is an issue that needs to be elevated to command levels. I'm not sure what level of command attention would be appropriate at this late stage in the game, but you've got to start somewhere.
I'm curious, are any of these "SGT's" FTO's...? |
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Just repeating what everyone else has already stated...failure to train is an issue that needs to be elevated to command levels. I'm not sure what level of command attention would be appropriate at this late stage in the game, but you've got to start somewhere. I'm curious, are any of these "SGT's" FTO's...? No. At our PD FTOs are other lgrade 1 officers. Our PD doesn't require Sgts to answer calls so that they are available to respond to situations that require supervision. This is a holdover from the 'old regime' that has never been addressed. Basically our Sgts do paperwork and hang out at the coffee shops.
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I like the Sim training. I like the AT and DT training. I set it up, and I work with the instructors in the training.
I have 25 yrs in and am the patrol sgt for our agency. I don't mind getting shot with them. It teaches you when that happens that you are screwing up. Those "other" guys should just "nut-up" and do the training. |