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Posted: 2/17/2002 7:00:41 PM EDT
Hi, I am old lady new to high power rifle shooting. I shoot an AR-15 and I have had conflicking results trying to figure out NRA rules on if it is legal to hold or rest the bottom of the clip in the palm of your hand while in the standing postion. Any help on this would be great. Thanks for your time.
Link Posted: 2/17/2002 7:09:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/17/2002 7:27:06 PM EDT
It seems to be easier for me to steady the rifle and hold it close to body for suport, that way I don't have to condort my body to rest my elbow on my hip...I know it sounds confussing but if you were to shoot them you would know what I mean. The stock is full of lead so they get pretty heavy hanging out there.
Link Posted: 2/21/2002 7:55:48 AM EDT
i don't shoot high power yet, so i can't help ya with your question. asking in GD (general discussion would probably get your some better results (as much as i hate to say it!). shadow, it is easier to rest the magazine (it's not a clip, birdshott) on the palm of the hand rather than trying to control it with the elbow sticking out. i know what she means. i empathize. it's also easier to control sighting that way as generally the vertical movement is held to a minimum because your elbow is "stuck" to your body and can't move. so you only have to deal with lateral adjustments.
Link Posted: 2/21/2002 3:42:18 PM EDT
Birdshott, I wanted to drop you a note in this forum, away from all the mud slinging in the Competition forum. I apologize to you for setting fire to your post. It appeared to me that someone who responded was being overly critical of you. Many people have been doing this shooting thing all their life and tend to look down on those that are new. I just started Service rifle matches about 1.5 years ago. Please, if you are interested, give it a try. It is alot of fun. And you will find that 90% of the people are as good as gold. Most will treat you like an old freind. Return to the Comp forum and read, read, read. There is a bunch of info there and plenty of good natured people. Again, sorry if our bickering put you off. Go to a match and have a blast. You will be glad you did. Dayton
Link Posted: 2/25/2002 10:54:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2002 10:57:16 AM EDT by Nekkid80]
I had to go read that Comp Forum Thread. The people making a big deal out of the wording of your question I recognize from here and other sites as internet Flamers. They type without engaging their brain regularly. Being such experienced shooters they develop tunnel vision. Just because you are a High Master shooter doesn't mean you are a GOOD TEACHER. Some of these guys have lost touch. BTW You may legally rest the magazine on the palm of your hand if you are shooting a Service Rifle. P.S. Goatboy has graciously given us animations to deal with these folks.[stick][spank][rolleyes]
Link Posted: 2/25/2002 1:20:54 PM EDT
I want to thank everyone for their help on this subject. Ranger I finally gave up and went to the NRA site and asked the same question and got a answer without the crap...his answer was just plainly: "YES it is permitted." But thank you for trying to defend me over there, that is not an easy job on that thread and by the way, I already knew all the correct terms it was just that I was in a hurry and made that BIG mistake. I have been shooting it also for about 1.5 years off and on but getting more into it this year, and when I first started all the guys (in their 60's) that are my mentors used the old terms so I forget to use the correct ones here. I attended a match Sunday and with winds bowing at 30 miles an hour and gusting to over 50/60 miles per hour all day, I still shot a 387 and the High Master only shot a 459, so I didn't feel to bad...lol
Link Posted: 2/25/2002 6:48:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2002 7:06:51 PM EDT by BillWalter1]
Doug (nekkid80) Actually, it seems to me you are one of the few who seem to make a big deal out of something pretty much straightforward. Terminology is fairly simple and if you can't make it past that, without making a big stink out of it, that's too bad. Even Lew Tippie once had a logo under his name that stated "it's not a #*@% clip...it's a magazine”. Are you going to thrash Lew next? To me it does not matter if person receives good information from a Marksman or a High Master...as long as it is good info. I believe you are incorrect about your deduction that High Masters lose touch and develop tunnel vision.... most of them want to help the sport grow...as do I. I see one problem as some people's unwillingness to adapt to the sport and expect the experienced people who know the rules and get their messages across with proper terminology, to accept their sometimes fundamentally and technically incorrect terms without question…essentially re-inventing standard terms…which is never good from a safety or standardization standpoint. Just imagine if every different range had different firing commands and different terms for everything? What a mess that would be. The fact that someone suggests a correction to another’s terminology is not a flame as you say...it's just another method to help new shooters adjust to the sport. I have coached and sponsored many new shooters over the past 10 years with great success, and they never put up a big stink about such as simple item as you have. I have also noticed over the years that the ones who demonstrate the most problems with adapting to the sport are the ones who think it's a competition between shooters instead of a competition between them and the target. I find that these people with the "us against them" attitude almost always single out the winners (normally High Masters) as villains to be scorned and detested. I guess they are just envious or something....who knows?…but their venom is spread quite often on the internet. One thing you should notice….I have noticed ...have you ever seen a High Master that did not know the rules or how to obtain a rule book? I doubt it. That should be the first step for anyone starting this sport.... get a rulebook and actually read it. Word of mouth or asking rules questions of someone else over Internet sites not the way to discover or interpret applicable rules. Birdshott, after you get past the political positioning that seems to prevail on this site, you will find there is a lot of good information on it. Be cautious however, some people may correct your terms in an attempt to help you adapt to the sport. These corrections should not be construed as malicious...regardless of what some on this site may say. Good luck to all and keep shooting...it's not as difficult as some would tend to believe....it just takes good training, advice and of course, practice. As you gain more experience, you will find yourself giving advice to new shooters as well...and hopefully they will not thrash you simply because you shot a higher score than they did.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 3:20:56 AM EDT
I didn't even waste my time reading what BillWalter1 had to say and since he is everywhere I am out of this site for good....Thanks again to the friendly ones and the ones that really want to help keep up the good work.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 4:59:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 8:23:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2002 10:07:02 AM EDT by Nekkid80]
Originally Posted By BillWalter1: Doug (nekkid80) Actually, it seems to me you are one of the few who seem to make a big deal out of something pretty much straightforward. Terminology is fairly simple and if you can't make it past that, without making a big stink out of it, that's too bad. Even Lew Tippie once had a logo under his name that stated "it's not a #*@% clip...it's a magazine”. Are you going to thrash Lew next? To me it does not matter if person receives good information from a Marksman or a High Master...as long as it is good info. I believe you are incorrect about your deduction that High Masters lose touch and develop tunnel vision.... most of them want to help the sport grow...as do I. I see one problem as some people's unwillingness to adapt to the sport and expect the experienced people who know the rules and get their messages across with proper terminology, to accept their sometimes fundamentally and technically incorrect terms without question…essentially re-inventing standard terms…which is never good from a safety or standardization standpoint. Just imagine if every different range had different firing commands and different terms for everything? What a mess that would be. The fact that someone suggests a correction to another’s terminology is not a flame as you say...it's just another method to help new shooters adjust to the sport. I have coached and sponsored many new shooters over the past 10 years with great success, and they never put up a big stink about such as simple item as you have. I have also noticed over the years that the ones who demonstrate the most problems with adapting to the sport are the ones who think it's a competition between shooters instead of a competition between them and the target. I find that these people with the "us against them" attitude almost always single out the winners (normally High Masters) as villains to be scorned and detested. I guess they are just envious or something....who knows?…but their venom is spread quite often on the internet. One thing you should notice….I have noticed ...have you ever seen a High Master that did not know the rules or how to obtain a rule book? I doubt it. That should be the first step for anyone starting this sport.... get a rulebook and actually read it. Word of mouth or asking rules questions of someone else over Internet sites not the way to discover or interpret applicable rules. Birdshott, after you get past the political positioning that seems to prevail on this site, you will find there is a lot of good information on it. Be cautious however, some people may correct your terms in an attempt to help you adapt to the sport. These corrections should not be construed as malicious...regardless of what some on this site may say. Good luck to all and keep shooting...it's not as difficult as some would tend to believe....it just takes good training, advice and of course, practice. As you gain more experience, you will find yourself giving advice to new shooters as well...and hopefully they will not thrash you simply because you shot a higher score than they did.
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Life is too short. Take a pill Bill. Lead by example. P.S.- I had a High Master offer me a free chicken dinner a few months a go. I will take him up on it during the Nationals. He must be a good guy.[:D] Doug Kunnen
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 11:00:17 AM EDT
Thanks Doug...I am leading...and you are one of the examples. Good luck Bill
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 7:49:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2002 7:52:14 AM EDT by ARlady]
Originally Posted By birdshott: I didn't even waste my time reading what BillWalter1 had to say and since he is everywhere I am out of this site for good....Thanks again to the friendly ones and the ones that really want to help keep up the good work.
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as much as it pains me to see that you're leaving, i can't say i'm surprised. but on the flip side, the fact that there's a women's forum at all ought to tell you about the quality of the people on this site. just liek anywhere else in the world, you're going to find the asses and jerks. no different here. but just like anywhere else in the world, you're going to find some of your best friends. i must apologize for correcting your terms. i didn't realize you had already been raked over the coals for that simple, honest "transgression". had i known you had already been corrected, i would have kept my mouth shut. correct terminology is important, and i won't hesitate to correct (nor will i apologize for doing so, except in cases like this) it when it is needed. but unfortunately your post opened up a whole can of crap for those that think it's the end-all, be-all of shooting. i'm sorry you were treated that way. i'm sorry to see you go, but if you won't even give us a chance... don't be run off by one loud mouth. really. stand tall and give it right back. admittedly you do have to be a little more aggressive on this site since it isn't full of wimpy women. but it's definitely worth it in the end. unless you were looking for a site with wimpy women.
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 5:45:20 AM EDT
It's not so much as you put it "being a wimpy woman" I came here looking for some help and maybe some advise from fellow shooters. Which I did, but had to listen to a lot of crap to get it. I have been to other forums where there is not as much crap slinging as in here like on www.troubled-one.com there is a little but mostly helpful advise. Maybe some others in here could benefit from visiting a REAL forum. I do want to thank you for apologizing but that's kind of what I'm saying, some people need to just help instead of criticizing, keep the crapping to the ones on here they know and not to the newbies so the newbies will still keep coming back. I am happy to know that there are at least a few on here that know how to related to people. And some of the others just need to get out more! This is America, you are free go outside and mingle with real people in the rest of the world and learn some manners unless you are to old to learn. I know I have learned allot on here and I hope others can to..(How was that ARlady? Am I still to wimpy? I can be a b*tch if that's what it takes to communicate on here.) And to let the others know I have read the NRA rule book but it was still a little confusing and that's why I came here in the first place.
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 11:23:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 11:34:00 AM EDT
Birdshot, im glad to see there really are female shooters! You may want to try a shorter buttstock which would, essentially, bring the rifle closer to you. you should be able to reach the handguads like that. you may also want to try 20 or 10 round magazines instead of 30 rounders, if you really want to use that position. good luck, Mike PS it isnt a clip, its a magazine.[chainsawkill]
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 6:44:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2002 6:51:39 PM EDT by ARlady]
Originally Posted By birdshott: How was that ARlady? Am I still to wimpy? I can be a b*tch if that's what it takes to communicate on here.) And to let the others know I have read the NRA rule book but it was still a little confusing and that's why I came here in the first place.
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no, being a bitch will only get you more of what you've already had. "you catch more flies with honey" ya know. there's no need to be so sarcastic. i said you had to be aggressive. there's a difference. i didn't mean to offend you about the wimpy women website comment. but there have been [i]lots[/i] of females pass through this site looking for special treatment because of their gender. i'm not making excuses or expecting violins, but we (you and I) are at a disadvantage at this website. first, we're female in a traditionally male pasttime, and being in the minority can really suck. second, the internet is anonymity at its worst, brings out the worst in people. when you add the second to the first, we can really take some attacks. but if you address it for what it really is (ignorance and/or stupidity) it's pretty easy to ignore the assholes and get down to business with the good guys. and believe me, there are way more good guys than bad guys. it took me quite a long time to "earn my wings" so to speak. stick with it, ignore the losers (they're patently obvious) and you'll find more information and friends than you'll know what to do with. i hope you don't think my correcting your terminology was criticizing you though. i was trying to help, albeit not knowing that several others had already tried to "help". it [b]wasn't[/b] criticizing. you may have taken it that way, being a little touchy from the previous thread, i understand. but it was most certainly not my intent.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 5:33:05 PM EDT
Shrike-I will ignore the PS line of your posting...now for the meaningful part of your posting, I wish I could get a shorter butt stock because I'm sure that is most of my problem, but the real problem is I am borrowing the AR, ammo, mat, coat, glove, stool, and spotting scope from a very good friend and he is not ready to part with any of it yet nor will he allow me to buy my own until I "decide if I'm going to stick it out for a year or two" lol. And I do use the 10 round clips. Thanks for your help.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 6:00:45 PM EDT
Bill, When using an AR gun, is it permissible to put a bullet in the clip and then insert it into the gun thingy or should you leave the clip in and put the bullet into the side hole. Of course this is not during the fast part, but for the laying down or stand-up part where you take your time. Or should I just stay home?
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 6:06:21 PM EDT
ARlady-I will try not to be so criticizing in the future and I apologize. I just wanted to let you know I could be that way if need be. And I do want to thank you trying to help me with the correct terminology of this sport. In my area I am the only female shooter, but I know most of all the the men because we used to shoot together in 22 rifle matches every Friday night and a couple of them cowboy shoot with me (that is my first love of shooting) so to them I am just one of the guys which does help in the training. But as you know they can be a little degrading acting like you don't know anything (which I don't that's why they are teaching me) but I hate that feeling so I do get defensive. I have to stand my ground with them. It is nice to know that there are at least a few other women shooters in this sport. Thanks again for your help and support.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 6:19:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By birdshott: ARlady-I will try not to be so criticizing in the future and I apologize. I just wanted to let you know I could be that way if need be. And I do want to thank you trying to help me with the correct terminology of this sport. In my area I am the only female shooter, but I know most of all the the men because we used to shoot together in 22 rifle matches every Friday night and a couple of them cowboy shoot with me (that is my first love of shooting) so to them I am just one of the guys which does help in the training. But as you know they can be a little degrading acting like you don't know anything (which I don't that's why they are teaching me) but I hate that feeling so I do get defensive. I have to stand my ground with them. It is nice to know that there are at least a few other women shooters in this sport. Thanks again for your help and support.
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You will pick it up. It takes time. Each sport, industry, culture has its own lexicon. Some of the best shooters in this sport are woman. We are all shooters, brothers and sisters. I have been put off by the elitist in this sport and others, but their arrogance proves how much of an ass they are. Have fun and once you master the sport, remember to be patient. That is the best revenge.
Link Posted: 3/5/2002 3:17:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2002 3:21:09 PM EDT by BillWalter1]
QCMGR: To answer your question, it depends on what you do with the thingamajig. If you take the doober and insert it in the big hole on the side of the gun thingiepart, it may impact the muffler bearings of the dohickie....that would be bad. Birdshott, please don't think people are jumping on your case simply because they may attempt to correct your terminology....in most cases, there's no malice intended....they just want to help you adjust to the sport...as do I. Also, please keep in mind that you are actually NEVER in competition with others on the range...it's always between the target and you...just like it is for everyone else. The winner is the one who prevailed over the conditions and posted the highest score...obviously...regardless of gender. Female shooters may be a rarity where you are located, but there are many Female shooters who are absolutely top notch and prevail almost every year in the National matches. Just a few names are Alonda Roy (HM), Michelle and Sherri Gallagher (both HMs) Nancy Tompkins/Gallagher (HM) and Sandy Pagel (HM). There are more as well. As for your buttstock placement, you may want to consider using an original M16 or M16A1 buttstock. They are about 3/4" shorter than a standard A2 buttstock, and I know several people who use them exclusively, and they say it works quite well. Good Luck
Link Posted: 3/7/2002 9:57:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By birdshott: ARlady-I will try not to be so criticizing in the future and I apologize. I just wanted to let you know I could be that way if need be. And I do want to thank you trying to help me with the correct terminology of this sport. In my area I am the only female shooter, but I know most of all the the men because we used to shoot together in 22 rifle matches every Friday night and a couple of them cowboy shoot with me (that is my first love of shooting) so to them I am just one of the guys which does help in the training. But as you know they can be a little degrading acting like you don't know anything (which I don't that's why they are teaching me) but I hate that feeling so I do get defensive. I have to stand my ground with them. It is nice to know that there are at least a few other women shooters in this sport. Thanks again for your help and support.
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no apologies necessary among friends. to this day, my first reaction to a lot of the macho drivel is defensiveness. since it's hard for me to change that aspect, i try to refrain from posting a response until i've had a chance to cool down and get "less defensive". doesn't always work. my fiance jokes about me melting the keyboard because i type so fast when i'm angry. [:D] i think you'll do fine here. if you ever feel "dangerous" venture over into general discussion. that's when your defensiveness will skyrocket. but it's also really good practice and you learn a lot. don't be a stranger.
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