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Posted: 1/31/2006 8:46:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 12:59:50 PM EDT by Striker]
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 8:55:25 PM EDT
Normally I would post Dr Laura's book 10 stupid things women do to screw up their lives but I doubt in this case it would help.

Thank you for being there for her Striker. Patty
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 8:58:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 8:59:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 9:06:33 PM EDT by Striker]
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 9:12:34 PM EDT
Some women are impressionable, and want a life like they see on TV and the movies.
They want some big production where they meet their true love, but then are torn apart, and then come back together.
Or they want to fix a guy, like they see on the movies "the love of a good woman" and all that bunk.
So...since these women want that life, and they find that real life lacks such drama, they tend to create their own.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 11:16:07 PM EDT
Sounds like she's come from a chaotic or abusive past. Abandoned, alcoholic father, abuse victim, etc.

In which case, like it or not, right or wrong she is hardwired for poor choices and unhealthy impulses. Even if her intentions are good, she will gravitate towards chaos....and her children are doing exactly what she did, which is also classic victim=victim.

You probably know about her past. Am I right?
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 12:31:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 12:31:57 AM EDT by diabolical_chicken]
?


she listened to every word you said, it sounds like, and agreed with ya to!!!!


its more along the line she didnt choose what you thought she should and what she herself knew were good, healthy choices--i talk to people all day long who "know youre right," but dont have the strength to make good choices after i leave, when it counts--like swingset said, they are hardwired by their past and its hard to learn to make different choices, even if you can LISTEN to reason

i think patty's book choice may be a good one, but it may have a similiar effect

Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:06:32 AM EDT
You are a great friend to this woman. But the reason you feel like this is because that is exactly what you are doing. I think she knows you are right but she is not going to take your advice until she wants to change her situation.

Why want she listen? Let me ask you, why are you still giving advice that you know she isn't going to follow? Probably similiar answers.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:18:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 4:19:04 AM EDT by VooDoo3dfx]
Here is my take on advice giving.......



If someone isn't asking for advice, I don't give it.. as they probably don't want it. They're probably just venting/like talking about it.. fine.


If someone asks for advice, and I give it.. yet, they 1) don't do what I said, or 2) repeat the same mistake/issue.. then I won't give anymore advice to them. They seem more interested in keeping that drama/issue alive and reliving it... rather than trying to solve it and move on.

If the above happens, and they do something about it.. then I won't mind giving advice again in the future.


This generally applies to more women, then men. As most men wouldn't dare asking for advice from another guy.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:32:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:38:27 AM EDT
You have to ask "how do they benefit by NOT changing their choice/behavior?"
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:30:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 7:33:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Striker:

Originally Posted By swingset:

You probably know about her past. Am I right?



Yes I do. Her father died when she was 3 years old. Her mother although caring believed you didn't need to tell your children you loved them. Very strong Catholic too.
Thanks for the replies everyone. It gave me something to think about. I only give her advice when she asks for it and sometimes she listens. I wish this time had been one of them.



There you go.
I'm very sorry to hear about your friend's problems.
Just make sure you don't get dragged down as well.
good luck.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 8:49:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 9:37:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 9:37:43 AM EDT by TheRedGoat]
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 1:00:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:06:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Striker:

Originally Posted By swingset:

You probably know about her past. Am I right?


Yes I do. Her father died when she was 3 years old. Her mother although caring believed you didn't need to tell your children you loved them. Very strong Catholic too.



Children who lose parents, especially young girls whose fathers die or abandon them often display relationship and interpersonal problems.

At the age she's forming what "normal" loving interraction between a man and a woman is, that relationship is shattered, and her world is set on its ear. And, subsequently, "normal" relationships will feel foreign to her, and she will make bad choices instinctively.

Textbook, sadly.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:18:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:08:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 5:09:47 PM EDT by pattymcn]

Originally Posted By Striker:

Originally Posted By swingset:

Originally Posted By Striker:

Originally Posted By swingset:

You probably know about her past. Am I right?


Yes I do. Her father died when she was 3 years old. Her mother although caring believed you didn't need to tell your children you loved them. Very strong Catholic too.



Children who lose parents, especially young girls whose fathers die or abandon them often display relationship and interpersonal problems.

At the age she's forming what "normal" loving interraction between a man and a woman is, that relationship is shattered, and her world is set on its ear. And, subsequently, "normal" relationships will feel foreign to her, and she will make bad choices instinctively.

Textbook, sadly.


So how do you break the cycle?



I think [again my opinion here] the only way to break this cycle is for the person who had the poor childhood to invest her time and energy insuring that her own children do better. Of course this is a doubled edge sword as if you look at your friends life choices for the past several years and wonder why she made these choices the only true answer is:

a: She doesn't know what 'normal, healthly' is.
b: She doesn't have faith in herself to follow her own better judgment [I'd bet my last wooden nickel she's lived a good part of her life on hope for the better].
c: Nothing anyone can say or do to change this. {for an example if you or someone like you were to marry her and create a healthy life for her she probably wouldn't be able to recognize it as her worth rather than luck.

Long story short - a house must have a good foundation to stand.

Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:12:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Striker:

Originally Posted By swingset:

Originally Posted By Striker:

Originally Posted By swingset:

You probably know about her past. Am I right?


Yes I do. Her father died when she was 3 years old. Her mother although caring believed you didn't need to tell your children you loved them. Very strong Catholic too.



Children who lose parents, especially young girls whose fathers die or abandon them often display relationship and interpersonal problems.

At the age she's forming what "normal" loving interraction between a man and a woman is, that relationship is shattered, and her world is set on its ear. And, subsequently, "normal" relationships will feel foreign to her, and she will make bad choices instinctively.

Textbook, sadly.


So how do you break the cycle?



I'd like to tell you there's a magic recipe. There's not. Most people never do manage to wiggle out of that collision course, and worse pass those horrible experiences on to their children.

There are some things that do seem to happen though to people who manage to change for the better.

First, they acknowledge their past, and seek some help. I have seen very few people turn around hard-wired trauma without professional help of some kind...but I guess it's possible.

Second, they incrementally divorce themselves from negative impulses, and quite against their character choose healthy influences. They stop hanging around bad people, they get into a hobby, find a purpose in their life, find religion, get a new job, start excercizing, taking care of themselves, etc.

Third, they stay vigilent. It's sad, it really is, but the biology of trauma is a life-curse. It doesn't go away, and you have to live the rest of your life realizing that the things that you are drawn to are dangerous, and you have to fight the magnatism of self-destruction. You have to be very self-aware to do this.

And, lastly, they need support structure - precisely people like you who are there to keep them upright. Unfortunately, until she takes care of the first 3 things, you aren't going to have much effect on her, at all. At least, not if she is typical of people who are battling their past.

Seen it, and counseled this stuff, for a number of years and I'd love to tell you that reading the Bible, or having a buddy slap them and say "wake the fuck up" or Dr. Philsims work, but they don't. It's more than that, it's deeper and self-actuated.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:16:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By swingset:
Children who lose parents, especially young girls whose fathers die or abandon them often display relationship and interpersonal problems.



I met a girl that had her father leave her and her mother at around 11 of age.

Two years later, she was getting laid with any guy that she could... and then started to get into relationships.. based on sex.

Even today, she doesn't know what happend.. or what went wrong.

She even told me "All the relationships that I have gotten into.. all of them started as just a quick fuck"

And no, I didn't tap that.. didn't even want to.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:22:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:36:59 AM EDT
I am thinking Jerry Springer can help out here.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:48:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 8:46:37 AM EDT
tag for the advice
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 9:56:17 AM EDT
Being in LE you have seen/met many who seem to have been born to be "door mats" their entire lives. It hits home more than normal when we see it happen to friends and others close to us.

Like the premise that battered/abused women come from battered/abused backgrounds, and all to often their daughters gravitate to that lifestyle. Sad but true. Damn hard to break that circle of perpetuation.

No easy/sure answers. She is lucky to have a good friend like you. Many women have no one and the daily drudgery of life goes on endlessly.

Keep trying...hopefully she will begin to make better choices/decisions.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 10:27:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 5:15:03 PM EDT
That sounds encouraging. I hope she follows through and gets some help.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 5:47:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 7:38:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 8:45:12 AM EDT
Sometimes people ask for advice when they have already mde their decision and are just looking for validation.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 8:47:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gunchyck:
Sometimes people ask for advice when they have already mde their decision and are just looking for validation.



Yup.

And when the advice they are given isn't what they wanted to hear..

They consider it "wrong info" and look for someone else to tell them what they want to hear.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 12:10:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:19:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2006 3:20:36 PM EDT by VooDoo3dfx]

Originally Posted By Striker:
That was one of my assumptions. Hence my..how do you get them to listen. A guy..I would wack him upside his head and say..you f**king moron".




Women (and a lot of men) aren't in touch with reality.. they will deny that anything is wrong just to live in a deep denial of the truth.

They wish to live in their own world.. seperate from other people.

Link Posted: 2/6/2006 4:48:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By swingset:

Originally Posted By Striker:

Originally Posted By swingset:

You probably know about her past. Am I right?


Yes I do. Her father died when she was 3 years old. Her mother although caring believed you didn't need to tell your children you loved them. Very strong Catholic too.



Children who lose parents, especially young girls whose fathers die or abandon them often display relationship and interpersonal problems.

At the age she's forming what "normal" loving interraction between a man and a woman is, that relationship is shattered, and her world is set on its ear. And, subsequently, "normal" relationships will feel foreign to her, and she will make bad choices instinctively.

Textbook, sadly.



I read about that, but as I am one of those females, I have to point out that not everyone fits that stereotype. There are effects, of course, but they vary on the woman and the situation. My case just made me more independent and generally intolerant of jerks. So... who knows?
Link Posted: 2/19/2006 6:26:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 7:34:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Striker:
She still tells me she is alright and doesn't need any help.



Until this attitude changes, there is nothing you can do or say that will get her to listen. She hasn't hit bottom yet and isn't willing to seek help.

Continue being her friend and being there for her, but just know that any advice she asks for in this area of her life will very likely not be followed. She has to want to change her life.
Link Posted: 2/20/2006 9:41:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By daydreamer:

Originally Posted By swingset:

Originally Posted By Striker:

Originally Posted By swingset:

You probably know about her past. Am I right?


Yes I do. Her father died when she was 3 years old. Her mother although caring believed you didn't need to tell your children you loved them. Very strong Catholic too.



Children who lose parents, especially young girls whose fathers die or abandon them often display relationship and interpersonal problems.

At the age she's forming what "normal" loving interraction between a man and a woman is, that relationship is shattered, and her world is set on its ear. And, subsequently, "normal" relationships will feel foreign to her, and she will make bad choices instinctively.

Textbook, sadly.



I read about that, but as I am one of those females, I have to point out that not everyone fits that stereotype. There are effects, of course, but they vary on the woman and the situation. My case just made me more independent and generally intolerant of jerks. So... who knows?



There are exceptions to everything, but almost with out doubt, if I hear about a woman who is attracted to chaos, there is almost always trauma/chaos/bad daddy relationship in her past. It may not work in reverse - in other words someone like you who has adjusted and doesn't have problems but if a girl IS having problems with men, you can bet things were screwy at home.

You can go on that assumption, and be right 98% of the time.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 4:08:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 10:46:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Striker:

Originally Posted By loonybin:

Originally Posted By Striker:
She still tells me she is alright and doesn't need any help.



Until this attitude changes, there is nothing you can do or say that will get her to listen. She hasn't hit bottom yet and isn't willing to seek help.

Continue being her friend and being there for her, but just know that any advice she asks for in this area of her life will very likely not be followed. She has to want to change her life.


loonybin..sadly I'm starting to believe that...



He's right
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 4:02:38 PM EDT
You should'nt offer what's not asked for,especially to women. Friends or not. In my experiance its often seen as "a controling" issue w/them. Yes I said 'them' as a whole. Good luck!......being a LEO sucks ass these days, glad I'm retired!.....its more like a social worker whom has the powers of arrest, I'm speaking of beat cops here. Do cops break/manlipulate the law?....I did.
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