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Posted: 12/13/2001 2:46:21 PM EDT
Hello Gunners: I have some questions maby someone can help me with. Is it illigal to mail Hi Caps to California from another state? How Illigal is it, if so? and if so where is this law documented? I looked in a few places and couldn't find anything on what can happen to me if i where to do this. Thanks Kittens
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 2:52:04 PM EDT
you cant do it HIGHLY ILLIGAL! check out cal.DOJ web site and look under assault weapons laws. BALOO.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 2:54:02 PM EDT
Don't. Mailing multiple magazines could compound charges into a felony or felonies. Ordinaly mortals can't *import* hicaps into Kalifornia - that means buy, sell, ship - on either side of transaction. If you are a Kalif resident and already own hicaps then you can go in & out of state with 'em. -Bill
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 3:56:34 PM EDT
It's definitely illegal to mail to Californistan any ammunition feeding device (magazine, belt, etc.) that holds more than 10 rounds. However, repair parts for magazines (replacement followers, springs, etc.) are legal.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 6:33:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2001 6:34:21 PM EDT by blkbeard]
I'm certainly no lawyer and never want to be, but..... I don't think you (in Georgia) are doing anything illegal in sending mags to California. It's not like the CHP can ride their motorcycles cross country and arrest you for it. I do believe that it would be illegal for the addressee to keep the mags you send to them. Went and looked it up: 8. If I have a large-capacity magazine, do I have to get rid of it? No. Continued possession of large-capacity magazines(able to accept more than 10 rounds) that you owned in California before January 1, 2000, is not prohibited. However as of January 1, 2000, it is illegal to buy, manufacture, import, keep for sale, expose for sale, give or lend any large-capacity magazine in California except by law enforcement agencies, California peace officers, or licensed dealers. (PC Section 12020 (b)(19-29)) [url]http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/pubfaqs.htm#5[/url] [url]http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/[/url]
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 1:09:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 5:27:21 AM EDT
Hi I don't really know which way this went, but i thank you all for your input. Nothin against Cali but i would think it would be a hard place to live where only the criminals can pack assault rifles. Thanks a bunch KITTENS
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 7:16:32 AM EDT
Criminals, and a few like myself who made a choice that some have called "cowardly" or hypocritical by purchasing ARs, etc. prior to the effective date of the ban and registering like good little Germans. An AR-15 can make an interesting conversation starter on a shooting range in Californistan.
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 1:59:22 PM EDT
Troy has it right. Another interesting slant is that it is legal to ship mags and receive them back for repair. As to how this needs to be accomplished per Caliban laws, I don't know. So, under these circumstances, it is legal for King Grey's subjects to receive mags via the email from outstate.
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 6:06:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By California_Kid: An AR-15 can make an interesting conversation starter on a shooting range in Californistan.
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Lining them up in the rack while I shoot gets lots of looks.... the AR 10 gets people gathering.... gives my dad something to do while I make noise.
Link Posted: 12/19/2001 8:18:56 PM EDT
Contrary to opinions above, I'm pretty sure it may well be illegal for someone OUTSIDE of Kalifornia to mail a hicap mag to someone INSIDE it not eligible to receive it. Just because you're out of state doesn't mean you're allowed to remotely violate their laws (however nutty they are). This may come under some catch-all law where "each state must respect the other's laws during interstate activities". [Similarly, there was a Sup. Ct ruling yrs ago about Nevada? Calif? divorces being legal in other states. The other states had to honor the divorces, something like that...] I am very familiar with a similar situation which occurrs with aftermarket racing parts (engine stuff) sold into Kalifornia. For street use, they must be certified by the state ARB (Air Resources Board) with an exemption number. Otherwise these parts are "Not legal for sale or use in Calif. on pollution-controlled motor vehicles" and are for "racing use only" (i.e., off-road, unreg'd vehicle, etc.) Such parts - and ads for these parts if advertised for sale in Kalif - must carry this warning if they haven't been certified. ARB goes thru car/racing mags all the time, test orders non-smog-legal "performance" items into Calif and then begins legal proceedings for those not complying. PLEASE consult an attorney before doing something like shipping a hicap mag to Kalif - even if the guy in Kalif is willing to take the heat. -Bill Wiese -San Mateo, CA
Link Posted: 12/19/2001 9:57:49 PM EDT
California has no jurisdiction on acts performed in other states.
Link Posted: 12/20/2001 9:45:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_G: California has no jurisdiction on acts performed in other states.
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Would the ATF?
Link Posted: 12/20/2001 9:47:18 AM EDT
BATF doesn't enforce state laws.
Link Posted: 12/20/2001 11:42:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_G: BATF doesn't enforce state laws.
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Not directly, but among the conditions for a Federal Firearms License holder to stay licensed are keeping aware of and complying with all laws of all states that their business touches. There is no law enforcement agency with the authority to prosecute a Florida resident for mailing a high-cap magazine to Californistan, true. But an FFL holder in Florida who got caught doing that would very likely lose the license. Permanently.
Link Posted: 12/20/2001 12:16:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2001 12:17:16 PM EDT by eje]
Penal Code 12020(a)(2) applies to "[a]ny person [b]in this state[/b]" who "manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine." So first off, a person who is in another state is not "[a] person in this state" and does not appear to be covered by the law. Second, someone in another state who mails hi-cap magazines to California isn't doing any of the activities prohibited by the law. The out of state mailer is not importing the magazines, he's exporting them; the recipient of the mags is the one who's importing the mags. So, the narrow question was whether it is illegal to mail hi-cap mags to California from another state, and based on the language of the statute I don't think it is. But that might not stop someone somewhere from trying to prosecute you for it. Don't know whether the racing parts laws also apply ostensibly to persons "in this state" but have been applied by the courts to persons in another state; it might be interesting to check that out. It might also be worth checking out if there is case law defining "import" as both sending or receiving the goods; not sure if the dictionary definition has both meanings.
Link Posted: 12/20/2001 1:15:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By eje: Penal Code 12020(a)(2) applies to "[a]ny person [b]in this state[/b....
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In the case of an FFL holder in another state, the BATF has sufficient latitude to look on that wording as a technical error in Caliban law and pull your license anyway.
Link Posted: 12/20/2001 1:28:50 PM EDT
I have an e-mail response to that very question from the Kalifornia DOJ from last year. IT IS HIGHLY ILLEGAL TO SHIP ASSEMBLED HIGH CAPICITY MAGAZINES TO THE STATE OF KALIFORNIA. You may under certian conditions send " replacement bodies" or "replacement spring kits" but I would not send both. You have no idea who you are selling too and I'll bet they will get a bench warrant and you will have purchased your last gun when the warrant is added to the NCIC computer under your name. Be stupid and pay the price,let the Kali commies who are short on hi-caps fend for themselves,,,,after all they support these wacked politicians.
Link Posted: 12/20/2001 11:27:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2001 11:19:24 PM EDT by Morpheus]
I have an idea. Someone from outside of Kalifornia please mail Osama bin Lockyer one of your spare high-cap mags as an experiment. Make sure you include an out-of-state mailing address (just make one up, if need be). What do you think? Will he get busted? Here is his address: Bill Lockyer California Department of Justice P.O. Box 944255 Sacramento, CA 94244-2550
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 12:47:34 AM EDT
Yes, you will be subject to a public hanging by the Caliban of Californistan for your indiscretion. lonegunman, living on the left coast you should know what the deal is. Between the unions and minority special interest groups, the average gun owner doesn't have a chance.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 9:18:36 PM EDT
Take it from someone who is a member of the bar - just because you are out of Kalifornia doesn't mean you can't break Kalifornia law. Case in point: Stand on the Nevada side of the border with Kalifornia and shoot someone in Kalifornia with a high power rifle. You've just committed murder in Kalifornia without entering the state. (What will really bake your noodle is whether you have committed murder in Nevada too.)
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 7:10:59 AM EDT
Murder across statelines is a federal offense. Your comparing apples to oranges and I'm surprised you didn't state this.
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 5:30:57 PM EDT
You're correct that "interstate murder" may be a federal offense of some variety. However, we are talking apples to apples. In the example given, you have committed state law murder with Kalifornia without ever having entered the state. The principle of extraterritorial jurisdiction is used by both states and the feds and is well established in American law, much to the chagrin of our European neighbors.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 8:52:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By lonegunman: let the Kali commies who are short on hi-caps fend for themselves,,,,after all they support these wacked politicians.
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By your own logic, you must have been a Klinton supporter. Of all the stupid shit to say that took the cake! Bravo, I hope you are sterile.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 11:29:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2001 11:22:13 AM EDT by stator]
No, apples to oranges specifically to the point that there is no federal law prohibiting shipping hi-cap mags equal to CA's laws. The total irony here that nobody is mentioning in this thread is that some of the border towns in OR and NV use shipping/receiving hubs by UPS and FEDEX in CA. Somebody shipping hi-cap mags to these towns will actual be imported into CA. Try that one on for size. It just shows the stupidity of our gun laws in CA.
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 8:38:23 PM EDT
Here are some Cal. Penal Code sections extending criminal liability to out of state persons in certain instances: 27. (a) The following persons are liable to punishment under the laws of this state: (1) All persons who commit, in whole or in part, any crime within this state. ... (3) All who, being without this state, cause or aid, advise or encourage, another person to commit a crime within this state, and are afterwards found therein. .... 778b. Every person who, being out of this state, causes, aids, advises, or encourages any person to commit a crime within this state, and is afterwards found within this state, is punishable in the same manner as if he had been within this state when he caused, aided, advised, or encouraged the commission of such crime. Not much case law that I found on these statutes, but they don't look good for the out-of-state mag shipper. Ed
Link Posted: 12/24/2001 10:09:31 PM EDT
It doesn't sound like Cali. can do much to you, but if you ever get caught in Cali. afterwards, they will kick your ass. This is like parking tickets from Colleges, etc. I know some people who have a shitload of parking tickets from various places that aren't government (City, State, etc.) They simply left town and never paid up. But, if they bring their cars back on Campus, etc...they will get towed. Much the same, as long as Kittens stays out of Cali. he is fine. But, if he somehow ends up with a layover in San Diego sometime, he may well find himself in a Cali. Jail.
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