Posted: 5/8/2008 5:24:29 AM EDT
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Mods, hopefully this is in the right forum. Form 4473 Under Review Pursuant to the Paperwork Reduction Act, ATF is seeking public comment on the efficiency of its Firearms Transaction Record, ATF Form 4473 (Part 1, Over-the-Counter). NSSF has urged ATF to adopt an electronic Form 4473 ("E-4473") that would be voluntary for both consumers and dealers and not connected to any government database (not a backdoor gun registry). This comment period is an excellent opportunity for firearms dealers to tell ATF that an E-Form 4473 would: Enhance the utility and clarity of the information to be collected. Minimize the burden of consumers and dealers in completing the form through the use of automated, electronic and technological collection techniques, e.g., permitting electronic submission of responses to the questions asked. It would reduce mistakes -- no more violations for a "Y" instead of a "Yes" and a prohibited person would not be able to complete the form. Shorten ATF inspections -- less time spent reviewing 4473s. Send comments to: Lynn Bryant Department Clearance Officer Policy and Planning Staff, Justice Management Division Department of Justice Patrick Henry Building Suite 1600, 601 D Street, NW Washington, DC 20530 Couple of questions I have is who will have this info? Dealer only? What is to safe guard ATF inspectors from down loading during inspections? CD |
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Oh yea that'll really help matters........ filing 4473 forms electronically will make things quite easy for the BATF boys to complete their database on owners of firearms. FWIW - the 4473 form you complete when purchasing a firearm is supposed to stay with the dealer that sold you the weapon. He is normally the only one retaining a copy of the 4473 form and generally it'll stay in his possession until his business closes - at which time ALL of the 4473 form which he has collected over the years is turned over to the BATF, (so they can then add those firearm owners names and info on the firearms purchased over the years into their non-existant firearm owners database). The BATF can review the dealers 4473 forms via request and are allowed to copy those 4473 forms pertinant to a case they are working on but this is normally the only situation in which they are allowed access to these forms. Stupid idea IMHO, and one I would not support (no sense making it easier for the alphabet boys to circumvent the law by collecting firearm owners information electronically). mike |
I agree. It cuts down on the BATFE effort to enter that information themselves. tin foil on. |
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Look at it this way: As long as firearms have serial numbers and they're recorded, you can say that registration of some form exists, at least when the serial number can be traced to a named buyer. That's just how it is. Cars are registered, you know, too. Having filled out a 4473 within the last few months, I can say that I think the current form is OK. They just need to be less anal about little things like Y vs. YES, but otherwise, the form is simple, easy to understand, and short enough. An online version wouldn't be any worse but may be better. CJ |
I hate it when people make this comparison. I'm to the point where I tell the anti gunners you know what, I agree. Guns should be registered just like cars. I can buy any car I want without restriction. I can buy one that goes 200 miles per hour, I can buy it from an individual or a licensed car dealer. It can have any size engine, it can be big or small. So when applied to a gun. I can buy any gun I want. A little bitty pistol to a GE Mini gun without restriction. And like the car, the only thing that limits my purchase is the fatness of my wallett. The car is registered to the owner. True enough. However, you only need the registration to drive on the public highway. If you buy a car and never drive it, or you only drive it on a private roads or a track, farm road etc, you don't need a license or a registration. Applied to my guns, as long as I shoot on private property, no license or registration is required. If I shoot on a gov't owned range, then the gun needs a registration. Simple enough, since most of us never shoot on a gov't owned range. Even the gun clubs we belong to are private organizations. Sorry for the hijack, but I really don't think people want guns registered like cars. What they want is registration of an already strictly controlled item and industry. I can sit my car in my driveway with no drivers license and no registration until the cows come home, nobody cares. If I had 10 acres I could drive the thing all over the property with no license and no registration. They don't want me to be able to do that with a machine gun. |
To me, this depends on the meaning of
Are they talking about a web form where the data is sent electronically to the BATF, or is this simply a fill-in .PDF or .DOC file that the dealer saves to his hard drive, then prints out for his records, with the data not being electronically transferred to BATF? The latter I'd support, the former, no way. |
RIF dude, RIF. OP clearly stated "voluntary for both consumers and dealers and not connected to any government database (not a backdoor gun registry). " Anyway, This was discussed at SHOT. There was even a company trying to sell a software package. "electronic" could be anything from a fill-in PDF for to a complete DB package. There is no registration at all, it all stays on the FFL's computer. Almost all other ATF forms are accepted for electronic. This would be a a good thing, if approved. |
Sure, go right ahead. And there are more things to add, I just got tired of typing. No background checks to buy a car. In fact, you could be a convicted killer, out on parole and buy and operate a car. You can also get the driver license and the registration. Still want to treat guns like cars? A 16 year old can buy a car and register it in his name. Guns too? I'm all for it. No I don't think people really want guns to be registered like cars. The system we have now is much worse for gun owners and buyers. |
IIRC there is no lower age limit on purchasing, titling, and registering a vehicle, though I imagine you'd have to be old enough to fill out the forms and sign them. The only thing the kid couldn't do is drive off private property. Obviously the kid would have to pay cash for the car unless an adult signed the financing paperwork, since someone under 18 can't legally enter into a contract. |
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Here's the thing about paper 4473's - When the dealer surrenders his license and prepares to send his bound book and all the 4473's to the ATFE, it's possible that the documents might fall out of the opening of a sidewalk mail box and onto the ground unnoticed during a heavy rain storm. That's not possible with electronic copies. It's a database. Duh, use your heads. The search software is probably already in place for combing through the electronic copies, and this agency in particular cannot be trusted to follow the law, let alone their propensity to make up regulations to suit the political winds or even the agencie's notions. |
Most FFLS already keep electronic records, never mind all the Credit card numbers and such. As for the 4473 itself, use a PDF to type it up nice and clean, they print out for your records. No electronic copy kept. |
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The damn 4473 should be verbal. The dealer asks you the questions and you answer them. The he can make the NICS call and tell the tool on the other end my guy passed and give them the pertinent info they need to complete the NICS. The only record that needs to be kept are the bill of sale. NICS is nothing more than a waste of time and money. But we have to keep the brady's happy. |
Here is a link to the new 4473 which is currently in the review and comment phase. Comments on this change to the form will be accepted until June 30, 2008. All written comments submitted to ATF must include the following information in the reference line: "RE: OMB Number 1140-0020 Comments Concerning Form 4473." If you are directly affected and would like to comment on the changes, please send written correspondence to: Barbara Terrell, Firearms Enforcement Branch, 99 New York Avenue NE, Washington, D.C. 20226. Draft 4473 You will note the first page is easier for the average gunbuyer. Abbreviations that most of us have used for years are now "permitted". Check boxes have been substituted for the "Write out YES or NO" questions. Question 12 has been reworded so it's clearer to the vast majority completing the form that they don't have to answer it. More room and a big box are given for State of Residence - before, people often missed that one and there was a tiny line to write it on. Check off boxes are also now provided for the nationality question. On the other hand, the part the dealer fills out is more intrusive. A third type of firearm has been added: "Other Firearm (Frame, Receiver, etc...)". Now it will be quite clear that you're stocking up on say, stripped lowers. This is the place where most would designate whether a new stripped receiver was going to be built into a pistol or rifle. The explanation for this question is poorly worded and doesn't address how to make this designation. The off premise sales at gunshows or other events now requires the actual name of the gunshow or event, as well as the city and state as before. Many shows in this neck of the woods don't seem to have "official" names. Finally, more lines have been added to list the make, model, S/N, etc., of each gun sold. However, the dealer now has to write out (no numerals!) the total number of firearms transferred on this form. I suppose this is to prevent a dealer from adding additional purchases to someone's form at a later date if they decide to buy more stuff from him. Please make comments. Everyone of us is "directly affected" by this form. We're filling it out, aren't we? |
Read this: Treat guns like cars (Dave Kopel) |