Looking through the federal definitions for SBRs, it doesn't appear that overall length comes into play unless it's a "weapon made from a rifle".

If someone was to manufacture a firearm at 25" OAL, 17" barrel, with a shoulder stock, would it be subject to NFA classification? If so, what type?


18 U.S. Code § 921(a)(8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

First assumption, the barrel is rifled. aka not smooth bore/shotgun barrel.

In that case it is the definition of a Short Barrel Rifle.

The reason is because as you said there is a "Shoulder Stock" it now becomes a firearm fired from the shoulder which is the definition of a rifle.

Yes, rifled barrel. Still, I don't see how it meets the definition of SBR.

18 U.S. Code § 921(a)(8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

It doesn't have a barrel less than 16"

It isn't made from a rifle (it's in original configuration)


What am I missing?

Being in CA, you are missing a lot. What original configuration is this? What preapproved manufacturer made it?

Explain the original part more.

CA has it's own laws, it's an SBR here. I'm curious as to where it fits into federal law, though.

Keltec could certainly make one if they wanted to (given that the RFB is just a hair over 26" OAL with an 18" barrel). Because of NFA concerns, I doubt any manufacturer has made one (but I don't see why an individual couldn't).

You are reading the sentence incorrectly...

First one must understand what a rifle is legally...

7) The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

The the definition of an SBR

(8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length AND any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

Please notice the word "AND" that I capitalized.... this use of AND does NOT mean that an SBR must meet BOTH the criteria preceding and succeeding the term "and". And is a rather interesting word, one of the definitions of it in The English Oxford Dictionary is...

"Used to introduce an additional comment or interjection"

The weapon you reference is an SBR because...

- It has a shoulder stock and therefore is designed to be fired from the shoulder.

- It has an OAL < 26"

Keltec makes the CMR 30, with the stock collapsed its only 22" but it's over 26" extended

Like the Mini UZI semi-auto carbine comes with a 19" barrel because it's so compact. I think the Mini with a 16" barrel is not legal in some states because of the shorter overall length. And some states measure with the stock closed. Thus they went with a 19" barrel to ensure over 26" overall even with the stock closed. I believe CA is one of those states where it measures with the stock closed. Needs at least 16" barrel and at least 26" overall with stock closed from my understanding.

"with a shoulder stock" this makes it a rifle or SBR.

It meets neither definition.

It doesn't have a barrel <16" (we have no disagreement on the first part)

It isn't a weapon made from a rifle, so it doesn't meet the second part.

"any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches."

If I took an RFB, 18"/26", and cut the barrel down by an inch, it would now be an SBR because it's a weapon made from a rifle with OAL under 26".

However, as our hypothetical gun is a firearm in it's original factory configuration, it isn't a weapon made from a rifle.

Some states say "any rifle or weapon made from a rifle with an overall length of less than 26") (or something similar to that), in which case it's an SBR under that state's law... but that's not what the federal law says.

Yes, California has it's own law and measures in the shortest fireable configuration. Most folding AKs are SBRs in factory free state configuration (that's what the case law is about).

I'm asking specifically about federal law.

ATF FAQ's
Read the actual citations to that FAQ answer.
In the CFR:
Short-barreled rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length, and any weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

Yes, and the weapon I speak of doesn't meet either of those, as I previously said.

It doesn't have a barrel less than 16"

It isn't a weapon made from a rifle (as it's in it's original configuration)

Maybe I missed it, but what weapon are you specificly referring to?  If you don’t want to post a pic, can you show something similar?  It has a shoulder stock and is intended to be fired from the shoulder?

I'm not sure that one exists, but it wouldn't be that difficult for a company to make one.

If Keltec decided to make an RFB with a 16.1" barrel, the overall length would be 24.1" (or something like that, their web site says barrel is 18" and OAL 26" but I don't know how accurate that is - the point being, barrel is >16" but OAL <26").

Think a Keltec RFB with a 16.1" barrel and 24.1" overall length, that left the factory in that configuration (you couldn't buy one and do it, that would trigger "weapon made from a rifle" with OAL <26").

Or, any other bullpup that has a short enough action that (overall length)-(barrel length) <10", with a 16" barrel.

Well, for starters KelTec isn't going to make a Title I rifle that is less than 26" OAL..........think about why that might be.

I think OP is looking for a new shockwave. He is asking what is stopping this under federal law...I think.

Yes, I'm asking whether there's some part of federal law that I'm missing. Reading SBR law, if it's in original configuration (aka not "a weapon made from a rifle") and has a barrel at least 16" long, it isn't an SBR.

There aren't many actions that this is possible with - it's certainly limited to bullpups, and even then some are too long (Steyr says the Aug is 28.15" with a 16.375" barrel, so with a 16" barrel it'll always be >26").


Is it an AOW?

27 CFR 479.11

Any other weapon. Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.



I don't see anything preventing it from being one.

It's capable of being concealed (<26") and a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive

It's not a pistol or a revolver (thanks to the stock)

It's not a "weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition" as that says "and"



so... would this be an AOW?

I do not think it would be an SBR. I think you have found the failure in the definition to cover all of their probably-intended scope.

If the firearm is not made FROM a rifle, meaning it is not a rifle that is then modified to be under OAL of 26", then I cannot see how it can be classified as an SBR using the second half of the definition.

If it is a rifle that is then modified to be under OAL of 26, then that means that it must originally have been a rifle that was over the OAL of 26". You cannot modify something to under the length if it was not originally over the length.

If you had a firearm that was designed to be fired from the shoulder, had a barrel of over 16", and was in its originally manufactured configuration under the OAL of 26" and had not been modified from a rifle, then I believe you would simply have a non-SBR rifle, or, a "rifle."

It's not a firearm, because it still meets the definition of "rifle," but it's not an SBR because it doesn't meet either of the very specific two parts of the test to be an SBR.





Criminal statutes must be construed strictly.

As many of us have already stated you made a rifle, hence the rifle with your configuration meets the definition of a SBR.

You are only looking specifically looking at 18 U.S. Code § 921(a)(8) and ignoring 18 U.S. Code § 921(a)(7)

18 U.S. Code § 921(a)(7)The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

Once you put a stock on it that makes it a rifle, which doesn't have any requirements or restrictions with respect to barrel length or overall length.

So with your scenario, you are making a rifle first.  Hence the rifle you now have is then configured as a SBR....

I disagree. The two must be read in conjunction with each other. He didn't make a rifle, and then reconfigure it with the shorter barrel length, as required for it to be an SBR. It was configured from its very creation to have a shorter barrel.

I agree that it meets the definition of "rifle," but I disagree that it meets the definition of "short-barreled rifle."

I think he's found another hole in the law, just like the 14" barrel "firearms" like the Shockwave.

I would advise speaking to an NFA-knowledgeable attorney before trying to make one, though.

I am an attorney but I am not your attorney.  That being said, I can almost guarantee that any federal judge will interpret the law not to require reconfiguration of a rifle.  Any rifle with an overall length of less than 26" is an SBR.  It is a rifle if it is designed to be fired from the shoulder and it is an absurd interpretation of the statute to say that you can make an SBR that isn't a rifle.  The first rule of statutory construction is that the plain  I would advise against making any rifle with an overall length of less than 26" unless you think you'll enjoy federal prison.  

Further, if your defense is that it was not made from a rifle how do you prove that?  A jury is free to disbelieve your testimony.  You don't think a jury might find it highly suspicious that your testimony is wholly consistent with a technical defense or loophole?  This assumes you even get a judge to instruct the jury as to your interpretation of the statute.

Because it wasn't made FROM a rifle.

It was a rifle immediately upon its creation, but it wasn't a short barreled rifle.

Criminal statutes must be construed strictly. I completely agree that trial judges will do whatever they choose to do. But that doesn't mean that ignoring words that Congress put into the statute on purpose is the correct interpretation of the law.

Another lawyer that is not your lawyer here. You guys are making this much more confusing than it needs to be. First of all, you should be looking at the NFA, not the GCA. The GCA defines SBRs but does not restrict them. The NFA, on the other hand, does both:

26 U.S.C. 5845(a): The term “firearm” means ... (3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;

Lets break this down further. If your weapon meets (3) OR (4), it would be covered as an NFA weapon.

(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length
Is your weapon captured here? No. Your barrel is 17 inches. You are good to go here.

(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length
Is yours a weapon made from a rifle? No. It is still a rifle, the shoulder stock was not removed. You do not need to continue the analysis at this point as your weapon meets neither (3) nor (4). However, for the sake of argument, we will pretend that it is a weapon made from a rifle. Not all weapons made from rifles are NFA. As you can see, they include the word "if". Such weapon, as modified, can have either an overall length of less than 26 inches or barrel less than 16 inches. So, if you took a rifle, made it a pistol, and the length was under 26 inches, it would be an NFA firearm. But as long as you have a stock on it, it remains a rifle instead of something "made from a rifle."

Thus, the gun you describe would not be regulated by the NFA.

Sorry for rambling and I hope that makes sense. let me know if you have any questions.

Well it looks like there's only one way to find out for sure OP.  Let us know how it works out for you.

If the weapon is under 26" overall (which it is from the factory) OR has a barrel less than 16" AND the weapon originally had a shoulder stock (it is a rifle because of the shoulder stock). It is an SBR because the OAL  is > 26".