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Posted: 4/17/2002 5:35:59 PM EDT
I was reading another thread and went to http://www.gunlaw.com/ and noticed that camouflaging firearms containers are illegal in Cal. What is a camouflaging firearm container and are they illegal anywhere else??
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:51:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2002 6:54:51 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:04:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2002 7:06:54 PM EDT by Robertesq1]
I can't figure out how to link directly to the page. http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=109880&page=1 Go to the site: Hit the "advice" button and then Hit the AVOID 10 COMMON "LEGAL TRAPS" FOR CALIFORNIA GUN OWNERS go to No 7: 7. ILLEGAL WEAPONS OR ACCESSORIES: Many non-firearm items still commonly sold at California gun shows or currently offered for sale by mail order in the nationally-circulated gun magazines are illegal in California. As mere possession, even in the privacy of your home, can be prosecuted as a felony, it is imperative that the California gun owner know the law in this area. Some of these prohibited items include *****camouflaging firearms containers, *******flechette darts or flechette ammunition, explosive bullets, ballistic knives, multi-burst trigger activators, nunchakus, metal knuckles, belt buckle knives, leaded canes, throwing stars, lipstick case knives, cane swords, shobizue, air gauge knives, writing pen knives, and items or weapons commonly known as blackjacks or billy clubs. Short-barrelled shotguns, short barrelled rifles, cane guns, wallet guns, zip guns, undetectable firearms, firearms not immediately recognizable as a firearm are also illegal in California. Tracer ammunition (except for use in shotguns) and grenade launchers are unlawful and are considered destructive devices in California. (Astericked for your info)
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:24:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Robertesq1: I was reading another thread and went to http://www.gunlaw.com/ and noticed that camouflaging firearms containers are illegal in Cal. What is a camouflaging firearm container and are they illegal anywhere else??
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I'm apparently in waist deep kim chee. ooops. -hanko
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:55:28 PM EDT
[left] I hope I never have to move to Cali. [/left]
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:58:59 PM EDT
Maybe Gunlaw.com was spinning abit more than they should. Notice they said camouflaging not camoflaged. I believe they are referring to the waistband carrybags that hide a pistol. Those are illegal in CA. Thus, it would be literating correct to say that this waistband carrybag is camoflaging the true intent of carrying a pistol.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 8:12:11 PM EDT
Wow, this has to be one of the best yet. Bags are illegal in california? A plastic shopping bag can be used to very effectively camoflage a handgun (see Eugene Sokut's book Secrets of Street Survival) even while it's in your hand. Are plastic shopping bags illegal? What about toolboxes? A 26" toolbox very effectively holds a broken down AR carbine or two. If they mean a container which camoflages the fact that what's in it is a gun, well then isn't just about anything that isn't marked in big letters GUN illegal? And conversely it would seem to me that if you carried your gun in one of those illegal containers but marked it very clearly "GUN", is it legal? Or is it intent that's outlawed by this law? Or do they mean that camouflaging anything containing a gun is illegal? ;) Wow, those CA legislators are good.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 6:08:05 AM EDT
They are talking about containers that conceal a firearm and which you can fire the gun without removing it from the container. One example is a briefcase with some type of external mechanism with which you can fire the gun within the briefcase. They are not talking about normal carrying cases. With those, you are carrying a concealed weapon.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 6:18:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2002 6:19:10 AM EDT by IMHO]
According to the local police, if a pistol is carried, cased, in a vehicle, then "GUN" must be clearly written on case exterior. One officer's extreme "on the safe side" recommendation: Take a piece of white athletic tape, write "GUN" on it with a "Sharpie", and apply to the Glock tupperware. This despite the fact that GLOCK "SAFE-ACTION" PISTOL is written on the case. Haven't heard of any charges related to missing labels.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 6:38:07 AM EDT
Dave G., This is your neck of the woods. What gives in Cal.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 9:21:02 AM EDT
Too many democrats and libertarians.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 9:43:39 AM EDT
IMHO< I don't know where your PD got that idea, but it is incorrect. If you are transporting a firearm in a case, the case must be locked or in the locked trunk of the vehicle.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 1:21:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 1:34:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_G: Too many democrats and libertarians.
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Your problem is too many democrats and NOT NEARLY ENOUGH libertarians. Unfortunately, this problem is not just California's... [:|]
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 2:14:03 PM EDT
There will never be "enough" Libertarians. Libertarians tend to shoot themselves, and the rest of the pro-gun community, in the foot by placing their own narrow "ideals and principles" above the common good. Jonah Goldberg describes Libertarianism very well in the following... Libertarianism is an ideology best suited for young folks. It compellingly tells kids everything they want to be told. Self-interest is not merely indulged; it is sanctified. Experience — represented either in the traditions accumulated over the centuries or simply in the lessons learned by one's elders — has no greater authority than the self-gratifying whims of a single person. In the world of these young libertarians, the utopian future is one where they get to share with the world the full benefit of their inexperience. Jonah Goldberg (c) 2001, NRO See: [url]http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg062201.shtml[/url] for the entire article.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 2:23:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_G: There will never be "enough" Libertarians. Libertarians tend to shoot themselves, and the rest of the pro-gun community, in the foot by placing their own narrow "ideals and principles" above the common good.
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So can I assume you mean “the common good” prevails over ones self interest? That sound a little too socialist for my tastes.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 2:55:27 PM EDT
Seems to be the same info you can find in "How to Own a Gun and Stay Out of Jail in California 2001" but... Disclaimer: This article provides only general information concerning only California law which is current as of February, 1997; for specific advice concerning your personal situation you should contact a qualified California attorney
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 3:44:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EOD_Guy: IMHO< I don't know where your PD got that idea, but it is incorrect. If you are transporting a firearm in a case, the case must be locked or in the locked trunk of the vehicle.
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OK, I'll look up the ordinance number for you, EOD_Guy, and will post a link here. If you'd prefer, you can search yourself at : [url=]http://www.ci.boulder.co.us/index.html[/url]
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 6:41:31 PM EDT
IMHO: Uh, are we talking Co or Ca ordinances?
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 12:23:47 AM EDT
Basically, this article states that you can't store firerams inside something that does not look like a firearms case. Like if your transporting them inside a guitar case or violin case, well that's just straight up illegal. But if you have it inisde a locked container, then its fine. The DOJ just dont want people walking around like Antonio Banderas from "Desparado". (Although i wouldn't mind that one guys case with the nade launcher....what the heck was that anyway? Looks like a gyrojet or something.)
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 1:16:11 AM EDT
Jeez, when did Cali become so Kali? I knew it was bad, but (*&)(*, not that bad. Whats legal anymore? Anything? The gun shops here in AZ have no pity for the Kalifornians having to come here to sell their AR's recently, they say the residents let it happen by their voting habits. True? Is the disease spreading?
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 6:51:19 AM EDT
EOD_Guy is correct. It only applies to containers that allow you to operate the gun while it is inside the container. Here's the legal definition:
(9) As used in this section, a "camouflaging firearm container" means a container which meets all of the following criteria: (A) It is designed and intended to enclose a firearm. (B) It is designed and intended to allow the firing of the enclosed firearm by external controls while the firearm is in the container. (C) It is not readily recognizable as containing a firearm. "Camouflaging firearm container" does not include any camouflaging covering used while engaged in lawful hunting or while going to or returning from a lawful hunting expedition.
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[url] caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/12020.htm [/url]
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 7:03:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By markl32:
Originally Posted By Dave_G: There will never be "enough" Libertarians. Libertarians tend to shoot themselves, and the rest of the pro-gun community, in the foot by placing their own narrow "ideals and principles" above the common good.
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So can I assume you mean “the common good” prevails over ones self interest? That sound a little too socialist for my tastes.
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Since he was talking about the people who pass laws, I'll make the rash & unwarranted assumption that he meant politicians. Politicians are [b]supposed[/b] to be looking out for the common good over their self-interests. Now the people who [i]elect[/i] politicians, they can look out for whatever they like.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 9:55:59 AM EDT
IMHO, I thought we were referring to California. I have no idea about Colorado law.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 12:39:32 PM EDT
Nope. I was talking about individual Libertarians. In most cases, they vote for their Libertarian candidates who don't have a prayer to win a seat because they poll in the low teens or in single digits. Their votes are wasted because they place their own narrow "ideals and principles" over the common good. To me, "common good" means electing pro-gun legislators at the state and federal level. Perhaps changing that to "They just don't see the [b]BIG PICTURE[/b]" might express it better. Voting party line in lock-step, without regard to the bigger issues, elects the wrong guy. This year, Californians have the chance to elect a nominally progun Republican governor. All you libertarians need to vote for him and every other Republican candidate this time around and re-evaluate our needs and desires for 2004 in 2004. The downhill slide must be stopped now.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 1:02:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Robertesq1: I was reading another thread and went to http://www.gunlaw.com/ and noticed that camouflaging firearms containers are illegal in Cal. What is a camouflaging firearm container and [red]are they illegal anywhere else??[/red]
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[emphasis added] Hey EOD-Guy and Robertesq1, this is what I was replying to.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 1:24:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2002 1:30:22 PM EDT by markl32]
I respectfully disagree Dave G. Libertarians see the big picture completely. There is no discernable difference between Democrats and Republicans. So long as you believe there is a difference you will keep voting “against” one side of the same long term agenda. The fact is we will continue to get penalized with higher taxes and continue to loose freedoms as long as Republicans and Democrats hold office. I think we both desire the same ends. The means is where we differ. Check your premises. [i]edited for clarity[/i]
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 2:46:22 PM EDT
IMHO: You're 100% correct, I thought you were responding to a later post. So than a disguising gun case is ok in Ca. but not in Co.?? I couldn't find the ordinance, did you find it??
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 6:08:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2002 6:11:48 PM EDT by IMHO]
Originally Posted By Robertesq1: IMHO: You're 100% correct, I thought you were responding to a later post. So than a disguising gun case is ok in Ca. but not in Co.?? I couldn't find the ordinance, did you find it??
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Yeah, I tracked it down. Appears on page [url=]http://www.ci.boulder.co.us/cao/brc/5-8.html[/url] and reads: "5-8-21 Open Carriage of Firearms in Carrying Cases Required. Any person carrying a firearm off of the person’s property or outside of the person’s business or vehicle shall carry the firearm in a carrying case. The carrying case must be recognizable as a gun carrying case by a reasonable person. A plain-shaped case must be clearly marked to be deemed recognizable under this standard. The carrying case must be openly carried and must not be concealed on or about the person. This section shall not apply to individuals who have a permit to carry a concealed weapon issued pursuant to state law." The officer who advised me about the Glock case must have considered the "Tupperware" to be a "plain-shaped case" not "recognizable as a gun carrying case by a reasonable person". Again, well on the safe side, because I assume that the majority of police would be able to easily ID the box. Also, it seems that the officer misled me when the advice to label the box this way for transport in a vehicle was given. I guess that I could remove the tape each time I got into a vehicle, but, what a waste of good athletic tape!
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 8:12:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2002 8:56:05 PM EDT by NYPatriot]
Dave_G, Please cite [b]one[/b] specific instance in Kalifornia where a pro gun Republican candidate lost a general election because a Libertarian candidate in the same race "siphoned" away the % of votes needed to give that Republican a victory over a liberal Democrat. I bet you can't do it.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 9:26:47 PM EDT
Libertarian! -- Blaze Of Glory. Ex-Kalifornian. Free Arizonian. Carrier of legal camouflaging firearm containers.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 7:18:33 AM EDT
IMHO: Well at least its only a local ordinance. One thing, it appears to read so as to apply to all guns but logically interpreted only to apply to handguns, ie so that you cannot walk around with a small case disquising a hand gun.
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 12:09:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2002 12:09:55 AM EDT by WSmac]
IMHO, buy some wide white elastic from a fabric store and sew or tie it into a loop that fits snugly about the guncase in question. Write GUN or whatever you deem appropriate in black marker. Save your tape for real athletic needs!
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 1:09:57 AM EDT
Not a bad idea, Wsmac, will consider that. Oh, the steps that we must take!!! This is getting silly, don't you agree?
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 8:09:42 PM EDT
why not just right "STEAL ME" on it?
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 10:58:32 PM EDT
I ain't gunna write "GUN" on a case. That could give up one of your rights. When you are pulled over by LEO they have to show just cause to search your trunk, if you lock your gun cases they will have to show just cause to ask what is in the case. If you have "GUN" written on the case it might be used against you.
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 3:02:23 PM EDT
The Libertarian party consists of sub-parties. Chief among these are the far-left and far-right. The problem is that if one of the sub-parties of libertarianism appeals to you, you will most likely be jumping in bed with a sub-party that absolutely does not.
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