Posted: 1/30/2010 12:47:03 PM EDT
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Just heard through the grapevine that an open carry group in MI of five males walked into restaurant in Lansing area with some members carrying AR15's along with side arms. Maybe its just me, but Im thinking one of these days that is going to have heartbreaking consequences. Im not against the right to bear arms etc. Im just concerned that in todays climate of public shootings, terrorism etc ... somebody is going to get hurt/ killed.
Am I wrong? or is there public notice that the group is going to do this and where/when it will take place to inform the public of thier right or opinion and possibly educat them about it? |
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Your post is exactly WHY we need more open carry demonstrations like this.
As long as it's alarming or unusual to see armed citizens walking our streets we are fighting a lost cause. It used to be a common sight to see armed people walking the streets. Now it's only socially acceptable for our political overlords to be so armed... 
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Your post is exactly WHY we need more open carry demonstrations like this. As long as it's alarming or unusual to see armed citizens walking our streets we are fighting a lost cause. It used to be a common sight to see armed people walking the streets. Now it's only socially acceptable for our political overlords to be so armed... While I am still getting my head around open carry (having always preferred CC), I agree with the_great_snag (interesting name, btw). We need to desensitize the general public from their irrational reactions to firearms. Plus, with all of the gang and potential terrorist activity referred to by the OP, carrying an AR might just be the thing. I went to lunch today with a couple other Arfcommers, and I open carried. I got a couple of glances, but that's it. I was an average suburbanite with a couple of other average suburbanites (no offense, guys!) having lunch. I just happened to have a visible gun. |
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I guess I did not word things the way I was thinking in my original post. My concern is not about if its leagal or not. I guess my question is do these groups make notice that this is going to take place or do they make a plan for a place and time and then just show up? I've only heard of this once before and there was publicity about before and durring. I believe it was a pic nic at a public park somewhere in MI.
Maybe Im also thinking that someone is going to see five guys walking into a restaurant with "evil black rifles" and believe a shooting is about to take place and try something stupid It just seems everyone is jumpy these days with all the shootings publicised in the news etc. |
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This is the cause of all the gun control legislation we have. The whole OPSEC bullshit, is just stupid. Whenever I show a friend or family member my "assault rifles" for the first time, the first thing they always say is, "Is that legal?". People who aren't into guns don't know what the laws are, and it doesn't help everyone is hiding them away, terrified of someone finding out they own, *gasp* guns! This is why when some ban goes to vote, no one gives a shit. Because they think they're already illegal in the first place.  |
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I guess I did not word things the way I was thinking in my original post. My concern is not about if its leagal or not. I guess my question is do these groups make notice that this is going to take place or do they make a plan for a place and time and then just show up? I've only heard of this once before and there was publicity about before and durring. I believe it was a pic nic at a public park somewhere in MI. Maybe Im also thinking that someone is going to see five guys walking into a restaurant with "evil black rifles" and believe a shooting is about to take place and try something stupid It just seems everyone is jumpy these days with all the shootings publicised in the news etc. Whenever the UHTF does open carry gatherings we just sorta show up carrying. I don't think we've ever had any problems or anybody try to shoot us. |
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I guess I did not word things the way I was thinking in my original post. My concern is not about if its leagal or not. I guess my question is do these groups make notice that this is going to take place or do they make a plan for a place and time and then just show up? I've only heard of this once before and there was publicity about before and durring. I believe it was a pic nic at a public park somewhere in MI. Maybe Im also thinking that someone is going to see five guys walking into a restaurant with "evil black rifles" and believe a shooting is about to take place and try something stupid It just seems everyone is jumpy these days with all the shootings publicised in the news etc. This is not the concern or problem of the OC group. The problem is the idiots and their perceptions of *evil* and danger. If it's legal, there isn't a doggone thing they can do about it. If they had half-a-brain, they'd view themselves as being in one of the safest places in MI. 
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| I'm all for open carry and have done it quite a bit in Nevada BUT a couple guys walking in with AR15's into a place of business might just get shot by someone concealed carrying. I know I would bring my hand to my hip if I saw that coming into where I was doing business, |
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Sorry to spoil your day venkmen, not a troll. I am an avid shooter, hunter and sportsman for over 30 years and ccw for 20. Nice to meet you too.
wmounts, Thanks that is basicaly where I was comming from. Just cant get the thoughts into words. Even I have been of the school of concealed carry. Just trying to understand the idea of open carry and I know next to nothing of the open carry groups. I'm not upset they are doing this. Im wondering are they going for shock value or is this a meet and great type of thing? |
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Sorry to spoil your day venkmen, not a troll. I am an avid shooter, hunter and sportsman for over 30 years and ccw for 20. Nice to meet you too. wmounts, Thanks that is basicaly where I was comming from. Just cant get the thoughts into words. Even I have been of the school of concealed carry. Just trying to understand the idea of open carry and I know next to nothing of the open carry groups. I'm not upset they are doing this. Im wondering are they going for shock value or is this a meet and great type of thing? It's for a lot of different things. 1), it shows that guns are not evil. 2), it's more comfortable. 3), it may invite people to ask us questions. 4), it helps remove some of the edginess that surrounds the "mystery" of guns. |
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I'm all for open carry and have done it quite a bit in Nevada BUT a couple guys walking in with AR15's into a place of business might just get shot by someone concealed carrying. I know I would bring my hand to my hip if I saw that coming into where I was doing business, Why would you shoot someone who is not threatening you in any way? What danger is a slung rifle? How is it different than a holstered handgun? Do you feel threatened by someone open carrying a handgun? It's good to be aware and ready though, I'm not going to argue with that. If it's legal, and the restaurant is fine with it, then what's the problem? If the establishment doesn't want them there I'm sure they'd tell them to leave. OP if you want some good info on open carry, check out the opencarry.org forum at opencarry.mywowbb.com |
then why did I not see anyting about this in hometown forum?? lol
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In other news, ~10 of us carried guns to The Pie a couple months ago. If it's legal, it's legal. I don't see anything wrong with it. Wow The Pie really? Did anyone give you guys any problems? Great pizza there btw Yeah, we have pictures in the UHTF. No problems, we were there for probably 3 hours total––We were at the one off of Redwood Rd. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=37&t=388088 |
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Your post is exactly WHY we need more open carry demonstrations like this. As long as it's alarming or unusual to see armed citizens walking our streets we are fighting a lost cause. It used to be a common sight to see armed people walking the streets. Now it's only socially acceptable for our political overlords to be so armed... While I am still getting my head around open carry (having always preferred CC), I agree with the_great_snag (interesting name, btw). We need to desensitize the general public from their irrational reactions to firearms. Plus, with all of the gang and potential terrorist activity referred to by the OP, carrying an AR might just be the thing. I went to lunch today with a couple other Arfcommers, and I open carried. I got a couple of glances, but that's it. I was an average suburbanite with a couple of other average suburbanites (no offense, guys!) having lunch. I just happened to have a visible gun. MN allows OC if you have a CARRY PERMIT (our permits do not specify concealed or not concealed) but I have to admit I'm a pussy and have not OC'ed yet. |
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Thank you darkcharisma thats what I was looking for. Like I said, Im not familiar with these groups and thier purpose or how they are going about it. Is there a national organization or just some local groups that get together for these?
And again, its not my perception of guns Im worried about. Its the general publics wheather we like it or not. Its how we teach/educate people and so on that I think is the issue and if there is an opportunity for me to participate then Im interested. Unfortunately with biased coverage and bad press, honest law abiding gun owners are getting the shaft and the crackpots that go off with a "m16 assault rifle" like the news always makes it out, and walks into the local school, mall etc and takes out several people then himself is how we are often portrayed to the public. And those of you who said we need to change this thought process by the public are right. Thanks for the informative replies and I will look into local open carry groups in my state for more info |
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Just heard through the grapevine that an open carry group in MI of five males walked into restaurant in Lansing area with some members carrying AR15's along with side arms. Maybe its just me, but Im thinking one of these days that is going to have heartbreaking consequences. Im not against the right to bear arms etc. Im just concerned that in todays climate of public shootings, terrorism etc ... somebody is going to get hurt/ killed. Am I wrong? or is there public notice that the group is going to do this and where/when it will take place to inform the public of thier right or opinion and possibly educat them about it? Why did you use your troll account to post this? 
ETA: Oh I know, because its an idiotic post. |
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Thank you darkcharisma thats what I was looking for. Like I said, Im not familiar with these groups and thier purpose or how they are going about it. Is there a national organization or just some local groups that get together for these? And again, its not my perception of guns Im worried about. Its the general publics wheather we like it or not. Its how we teach/educate people and so on that I think is the issue and if there is an opportunity for me to participate then Im interested. Unfortunately with biased coverage and bad press, honest law abiding gun owners are getting the shaft and the crackpots that go off with a "m16 assault rifle" like the news always makes it out, and walks into the local school, mall etc and takes out several people then himself is how we are often portrayed to the public. And those of you who said we need to change this thought process by the public are right. Thanks for the informative replies and I will look into local open carry groups in my state for more info There are some "formal" groups like OpenCarry.Org split up into regional or state level forums where people generally organize get-togethers fairly frequently; At least in Utah, it's never really an endorsed or politicized event, just friends or people with common interests that want to grab a bite to eat and socialize with their guns on their hips instead of in their waistband. The climate elsewhere may make it more of a challenge to do in other states than it is here. People generally don't bat an eye at holstered guns in most parts of this great State. |
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Quoted: Your post is exactly WHY we need more open carry demonstrations like this. As long as it's alarming or unusual to see armed citizens walking our streets we are fighting a lost cause. It used to be a common sight to see armed people walking the streets. Now it's only socially acceptable for our political overlords to be so armed... I agree. I open carry everywhere I can and encourage friends to do the same. It helps prevent people from being scared of guns knowing that normal people around them are carrying them and not just criminals. |
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If legality is not an issue, then, to me, it's a matter of poor taste to shop the local box with black rifles at the ready. With mall ninjas sporting their WMD's in public, how long do you think it will be before the nervous natives rush to overturn open carry and maybe concealed carry as well? Not good for any of us.
I'm not totally against it but there can be downsides to OC. Some states with OC may restrict carry to OC only...no concealed carry. Not good IMHO. OC advertises the carrier as a shoot-me-first target. The element of surpise could be lost in a critcal situation. |
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If legality is not an issue, then, to me, it's a matter of poor taste to shop the local box with black rifles at the ready. With mall ninjas sporitng their wmd's in public, how long do you think it will be before the nervous natives rush to overturn open carry and maybe concealed carry as well? Not good for any of us. I'm not totally against it but there can be downsides to OC. Some states with OC may restrict carry to OC only...no concealed carry. Not good IMHO. OC advertises the carrier as a shoot-me-first target. The element of surpise could be lost in a critcal situation. And here... we... go! 
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Quoted: Most criminals do not want to commit murder I would think unless they have to. Nor do they want to be shot. If I was about to rob some place and I saw a guy in there with a pistol I would wait until he went away. If I was going to rob a person and saw a pistol I would rob someone else.Quoted: OC advertises the carrier as a shoot-me-first target. The element of surpise could be lost in a critcal situation. Do you have a citation to back up this claim? Or did you make it up like, well... everyone else who says this? |
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OC advertises the carrier as a shoot-me-first target. The element of surpise could be lost in a critcal situation. Do you have a citation to back up this claim? Or did you make it up like, well... everyone else who says this? I find it interesting that you've heard this before. Many times? No headlines to substantiate, just a little common sense. |
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Just throwing out some comments for open debate. I don't think it calls for a childish reaction. We're supposed to be comfortable with your open carry when you can't handle a coupe of open suppositions ? As much as you'd like to think you're asking an original question, you're not, and it's been re-hashed a thousand times here in the last few months. Sorry to be short, but every single argument from those against OC for "Surprise reasons" has yet to be able to turn up a situation where they were targeted first in a scenario where shooting is imminent. It's all emotionally-driven baseless argument in an ill-fated attempt to prove that concealed carry is "better" than open carry. The only thing childish is your passive-aggressive "We're supposed to be comfortable with your open carry when you can't handle a coupe of open suppositions ?" |
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Quoted: Quoted: Most criminals do not want to commit murder I would think unless they have to. Nor do they want to be shot. If I was about to rob some place and I saw a guy in there with a pistol I would wait until he went away. If I was going to rob a person and saw a pistol I would rob someone else.Quoted: OC advertises the carrier as a shoot-me-first target. The element of surpise could be lost in a critcal situation. Do you have a citation to back up this claim? Or did you make it up like, well... everyone else who says this? BAH! That's ridiculous! A real criminal would go in guns blazin' and take them out first. Rather than something simple like finding another store down the street! Robbery, murder... what's the difference to them!? /sarcasm
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OC advertises the carrier as a shoot-me-first target. The element of surpise could be lost in a critcal situation. Do you have a citation to back up this claim? Or did you make it up like, well... everyone else who says this? I find it interesting that you've heard this before. Many times? No headlines to substantiate, just a little common sense. No headlines? Come on... there has to be something on the internet to substantiate your claim. |
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LackingCharisma,
Passive /Agressive...an oxymoron? Not having a horse in this race or debating this issue ever before, it merely occured to me that their could be some downsides. What I recieved was a couple of touchy and emotional responses. If "everyone else" has made similar comments, then might they possibly be valid or at least worth considering? Didn't realize this was a sensitive issue. Pardon TF out of me!
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LackingCharisma, Passive /Agressive...an oxymoron? Not having a horse in this race or debating this issue ever before, it merely occured to me that their could be some downsides. What I recieved was a couple of touchy and emotional responses. If "everyone else" has made similar comments, then might they possibly be valid or at least worth considering? Didn't realize this was a sensitive issue. Pardon TF out of me! Cute. No, passive/aggressive is not an oxymoron. Global warming has been discussed endlessly as well. It doesn't make it any more valid today than it was yesterday. Generally if you're going to call something out, you should have some cards to play. Otherwise you're just trolling. As I said before, this has been re-hashed many times, and every time nobody can find any story, headline, snippet, rumor, anecdotal tale, etc. of anybody getting shot first or jumped first because they were open carrying. In the event that you're in a 7/11 that hardened dynamic entry teams of criminals often hit, then yes––you may have a valid concern. However, the general consensus (Since there is a lack of evidence otherwise) is that openly carrying may act as a deterrent more than an attractant. |
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LackingCharisma, Passive /Agressive...an oxymoron? Not having a horse in this race or debating this issue ever before, it merely occured to me that their could be some downsides. What I recieved was a couple of touchy and emotional responses. If "everyone else" has made similar comments, then might they possibly be valid or at least worth considering? Didn't realize this was a sensitive issue. Pardon TF out of me! Cute. No, passive/aggressive is not an oxymoron. Global warming has been discussed endlessly as well. It doesn't make it any more valid today than it was yesterday. Generally if you're going to call something out, you should have some cards to play. Otherwise you're just trolling. As I said before, this has been re-hashed many times, and every time nobody can find any story, headline, snippet, rumor, anecdotal tale, etc. of anybody getting shot first or jumped first because they were open carrying. In the event that you're in a 7/11 that hardened dynamic entry teams of criminals often hit, then yes––you may have a valid concern. However, the general consensus (Since there is a lack of evidence otherwise) is that openly carrying may act as a deterrent more than an attractant. Not concerned in the least. My mistake. Thought this was an open discussion, not a court-of law with all evidence previously presented and an undisputable and unreversable verdict reached. |
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LackingCharisma, Passive /Agressive...an oxymoron? Not having a horse in this race or debating this issue ever before, it merely occured to me that their could be some downsides. What I recieved was a couple of touchy and emotional responses. If "everyone else" has made similar comments, then might they possibly be valid or at least worth considering? Didn't realize this was a sensitive issue. Pardon TF out of me! Cute. No, passive/aggressive is not an oxymoron. Global warming has been discussed endlessly as well. It doesn't make it any more valid today than it was yesterday. Generally if you're going to call something out, you should have some cards to play. Otherwise you're just trolling. As I said before, this has been re-hashed many times, and every time nobody can find any story, headline, snippet, rumor, anecdotal tale, etc. of anybody getting shot first or jumped first because they were open carrying. In the event that you're in a 7/11 that hardened dynamic entry teams of criminals often hit, then yes––you may have a valid concern. However, the general consensus (Since there is a lack of evidence otherwise) is that openly carrying may act as a deterrent more than an attractant. Not concerned in the least. My mistake. Thought this was an open discussion, not a court-of law with all evidence previously presented and an undisputable and unreversable verdict reached. Discussions generally are substantiated with facts or evidence. Otherwise it's as frivolous as discussing the benefits of wearing your watch on your left or right wrist. |
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LackingCharisma, Passive /Agressive...an oxymoron? Not having a horse in this race or debating this issue ever before, it merely occured to me that their could be some downsides. What I recieved was a couple of touchy and emotional responses. If "everyone else" has made similar comments, then might they possibly be valid or at least worth considering? Didn't realize this was a sensitive issue. Pardon TF out of me! Cute. No, passive/aggressive is not an oxymoron. Global warming has been discussed endlessly as well. It doesn't make it any more valid today than it was yesterday. Generally if you're going to call something out, you should have some cards to play. Otherwise you're just trolling. As I said before, this has been re-hashed many times, and every time nobody can find any story, headline, snippet, rumor, anecdotal tale, etc. of anybody getting shot first or jumped first because they were open carrying. In the event that you're in a 7/11 that hardened dynamic entry teams of criminals often hit, then yes––you may have a valid concern. However, the general consensus (Since there is a lack of evidence otherwise) is that openly carrying may act as a deterrent more than an attractant. Not concerned in the least. My mistake. Thought this was an open discussion, not a court-of law with all evidence previously presented and an undisputable and unreversable verdict reached. Discussions generally are substantiated with facts or evidence. Otherwise it's as frivolous as discussing the benefits of wearing your watch on your left or right wrist. Court cases are generally substantiated with facts or evidence. Open and civilized discussion can also contain hypotheticals. I don't find any evidence in this thread that the possibilities I raised could never happen. This ends my "discussion" (or rests my case). I've got better things to do than continue this B.S. 
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Quoted: Of course they could happen. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: LackingCharisma, Passive /Agressive...an oxymoron? Not having a horse in this race or debating this issue ever before, it merely occured to me that their could be some downsides. What I recieved was a couple of touchy and emotional responses. If "everyone else" has made similar comments, then might they possibly be valid or at least worth considering? Didn't realize this was a sensitive issue. Pardon TF out of me! Cute. No, passive/aggressive is not an oxymoron. Global warming has been discussed endlessly as well. It doesn't make it any more valid today than it was yesterday. Generally if you're going to call something out, you should have some cards to play. Otherwise you're just trolling. As I said before, this has been re-hashed many times, and every time nobody can find any story, headline, snippet, rumor, anecdotal tale, etc. of anybody getting shot first or jumped first because they were open carrying. In the event that you're in a 7/11 that hardened dynamic entry teams of criminals often hit, then yes––you may have a valid concern. However, the general consensus (Since there is a lack of evidence otherwise) is that openly carrying may act as a deterrent more than an attractant. Not concerned in the least. My mistake. Thought this was an open discussion, not a court-of law with all evidence previously presented and an undisputable and unreversable verdict reached. Discussions generally are substantiated with facts or evidence. Otherwise it's as frivolous as discussing the benefits of wearing your watch on your left or right wrist. Court cases are generally substantiated with facts or evidence. Open and civilized discussion can also contain hypotheticals. I don't find any evidence in this thread that the possibilities I raised could never happen. This ends my "discussion" (or rests my case). I've got better things to do than continue this B.S. |
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Quoted: Has anyone been to Lansing Mi? I have and its a rough town. But yes carrying a rifle in to eat is way over the top. A pistol, couple mags and you are good to go. Keep the rifle out in the vehicle. Actually I would not want to leave a rifle in my vehicle in a bad neighborhood. |