[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Capitalism flawed? (Page 1 of 4)
Posted: 1/20/2010 4:11:06 PM EDT
Since today appears to be "screw you commie!" day, how bout bringing some balance to arfcom. I'm sure I'll need my flamesuit. 
Communism is obviously flawed since everyone is supposed to be equal... Which in practice means there is no motivation, and invites government corruption. Obvious flaw with capitalism - avarice/greed. One of the biggie sins. Yet it's greatest asset as well. But in the capitalist world, if you can sell it and make a profit, it's OK. Theory says another competitor can come in and sell for less. In practice economies of scale and barriers to entry say that just ain't so. With true capitalism, the greatest power lies with captains of industry, not with government. At some point, compensation for work must outweigh motivation and simply become unnecessary. Obviously the progressive income tax was implemented with a similar thought in mind. That said, Capitalism is still way the f*ck better than Communism, Socialism, Fascism, or any other ism out there. |
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capitalism is perfect because it uses the flaws off the greedy sinful human to create.
the fact that people are greedy and want to make money and have things makes capitalism work. however when you limit it and only allow certain people to succeed based to their race, income, political affiliation, ect... that is when capitalism fails. but then it is no longer free market capitalism but rather controlled (command?) capitalism which is a farce capitalism and underneath is toeing the line of capitalism and socialism |
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No, Capitalism is perfect in the same sense that gravity is perfect. Humans behave in certain ways just as matter behaves in a certain way. Matter is attracted to matter and this tendency is called the “Law of Gravity.” People act in certain ways economically and this gives rise to the laws of economics. Capitalism is what you get when a society merely creates a few basic rules to facilitate economic transactions. It’s natural.
Like many natural things it may give undesirable results but that doesn’t mean it’s flawed. Edit: Greed is often attached to Capitalism. But greed is not wanting more than you have. Greed is wanting what isn’t yours by right. The man who wants to earn more money through honest work or commerce isn’t greedy. But the man who wants to tax money from the successful is greedy. |
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Greed is good. |
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Obvious flaw with capitalism - avarice/greed. One of the biggie sins. Huh? Avarice and greed are human flaws. They are not the result of capitalism. Greed, or more accuratly, self interest, is necessary for capitalism to function, but is one of the reasons communism does not function. |
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Capitalism is the Least Evil of all forms of government. I believe Winston Churchill said that. Actually, you're thinking of this one: "Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government... except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." -Sir Winston Churchill, Hansard, November 11, 1947 And then there's this one: The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. -Winston Churchill As to the OP, I voted "flawed but best we've got". Unfettered capitalism leads to dumping toxic waste in the waterways & robber barons & monopolies. No bueno. Remember, Theodore Roosevelt made his bones as a monopoly breaker, and rivers have become so polluted they have caught fire. |
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No, Capitalism is perfect in the same sense that gravity is perfect. Humans behave in certain ways just as matter behaves in a certain way. Matter is attracted to matter and this tendency is called the “Law of Gravity.” People act in certain ways economically and this gives rise to the laws of economics. Capitalism is what you get when a society merely creates a few basic rules to facilitate economic transactions. It’s natural. Like many natural things it may give undesirable results but that doesn’t mean it’s flawed. Edit: Greed is often attached to Capitalism. But greed is not wanting more than you have. Greed is wanting what isn’t yours by right. The man who wants to earn more money through honest work or commerce isn’t greedy. But the man who wants to tax money from the successful is greedy. +1 This is the answer. Capitalism is a term used to describe natural law. Capitalism is not a human devised system. People just recognized it, and pussies like Marx didn't like the reality of it, so they attempted to change nature. MOST of the people seen as "evil capitalists" are actually not capitalists at all. They are Randian looters who manipulate government for their own greedy ends. They use the force of law to enrich themselves instead of the force of effort, hard work, and determination. Listen to most people berating capitalism and look at their lives. It is usually very telling. |
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No, Capitalism is perfect in the same sense that gravity is perfect. Humans behave in certain ways just as matter behaves in a certain way. Matter is attracted to matter and this tendency is called the “Law of Gravity.” People act in certain ways economically and this gives rise to the laws of economics. Capitalism is what you get when a society merely creates a few basic rules to facilitate economic transactions. It’s natural. Like many natural things it may give undesirable results but that doesn’t mean it’s flawed. Edit: Greed is often attached to Capitalism. But greed is not wanting more than you have. Greed is wanting what isn’t yours by right. The man who wants to earn more money through honest work or commerce isn’t greedy. But the man who wants to tax money from the successful is greedy. /thread |
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Capitalism is the Least Evil of all forms of government. I believe Winston Churchill said that. Actually, you're thinking of this one: "Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government... except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." -Sir Winston Churchill, Hansard, November 11, 1947 And then there's this one: The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. -Winston Churchill As to the OP, I voted "flawed but best we've got". Unfettered capitalism leads to dumping toxic waste in the waterways & robber barons & monopolies. No bueno. Remember, Theodore Roosevelt made his bones as a monopoly breaker, and rivers have become so polluted they have caught fire. Capitalism has nothing to do with dumping toxic wastes. That would be anarchy. Capitalism is a description of the way human nature tends to allocate resources absent illegitimate force. |
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Quoted: Capitalism would work a lot better if the gov wouldn't interfere and fuck up the market Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Some restraint is, unfortunately, necessary if you want anything less than Somalia-market-style commerce and "consumer-last" governance of the market. Sorry, it violates ARFcom's rigid and mindless collective principles, but anyone with a shred of intelligence can figure out that the only thing worse than government intervention in the market is NO intervention in the market. I'm not going to burn calories giving examples, it's not hard to find historical & rhetorical ones that make this clear. The trick is a proper balance. |
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No, Capitalism is perfect in the same sense that gravity is perfect. Humans behave in certain ways just as matter behaves in a certain way. Matter is attracted to matter and this tendency is called the “Law of Gravity.” People act in certain ways economically and this gives rise to the laws of economics. Capitalism is what you get when a society merely creates a few basic rules to facilitate economic transactions. It’s natural. Like many natural things it may give undesirable results but that doesn’t mean it’s flawed. Edit: Greed is often attached to Capitalism. But greed is not wanting more than you have. Greed is wanting what isn’t yours by right. The man who wants to earn more money through honest work or commerce isn’t greedy. But the man who wants to tax money from the successful is greedy. +1 This is the answer. Capitalism is a term used to describe natural law. Capitalism is not a human devised system. People just recognized it, and pussies like Marx didn't like the reality of it, so they attempted to change nature. MOST of the people seen as "evil capitalists" are actually not capitalists at all. They are Randian looters who manipulate government for their own greedy ends. They use the force of law to enrich themselves instead of the force of effort, hard work, and determination. Listen to most people berating capitalism and look at their lives. It is usually very telling. Two equally excellent post's. Bravo |
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No, Capitalism is perfect in the same sense that gravity is perfect. Humans behave in certain ways just as matter behaves in a certain way. Matter is attracted to matter and this tendency is called the “Law of Gravity.” People act in certain ways economically and this gives rise to the laws of economics. Capitalism is what you get when a society merely creates a few basic rules to facilitate economic transactions. It’s natural. Like many natural things it may give undesirable results but that doesn’t mean it’s flawed. Edit: Greed is often attached to Capitalism. But greed is not wanting more than you have. Greed is wanting what isn’t yours by right. The man who wants to earn more money through honest work or commerce isn’t greedy. But the man who wants to tax money from the successful is greedy. +1 This is the answer. Capitalism is a term used to describe natural law. Capitalism is not a human devised system. People just recognized it, and pussies like Marx didn't like the reality of it, so they attempted to change nature. MOST of the people seen as "evil capitalists" are actually not capitalists at all. They are Randian looters who manipulate government for their own greedy ends. They use the force of law to enrich themselves instead of the force of effort, hard work, and determination. Listen to most people berating capitalism and look at their lives. It is usually very telling. Yup. "Capitalism" is simply the recognition of individual rights - i.e. those actions that are necessary for man's survival and happiness. Of course, Ayn Rand can say it better than anyone... "The moral justification of capitalism does not lie in the altruist claim that it represents the best way to achieve “the common good.” It is true that capitalism does—if that catch-phrase has any meaning—but this is merely a secondary consequence. The moral justification of capitalism lies in the fact that it is the only system consonant with man’s rational nature, that it protects man’s survival qua man, and that its ruling principle is: justice." |
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Since today appears to be "screw you commie!" day, how bout bringing some balance to arfcom. I'm sure I'll need my flamesuit.
Communism is obviously flawed since everyone is supposed to be equal... Which in practice means there is no motivation, and invites government corruption. Obvious flaw with capitalism - avarice/greed. One of the biggie sins. Yet it's greatest asset as well. But in the capitalist world, if you can sell it and make a profit, it's OK. Theory says another competitor can come in and sell for less. In practice economies of scale and barriers to entry say that just ain't so. With true capitalism, the greatest power lies with captains of industry, not with government. At some point, compensation for work must outweigh motivation and simply become unnecessary. Obviously the progressive income tax was implemented with a similar thought in mind. That said, Capitalism is still way the f*ck better than Communism, Socialism, Fascism, or any other ism out there. Awww, you're just working for Fox news 
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Capitalism would work a lot better if the gov wouldn't interfere and fuck up the market Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Some restraint is, unfortunately, necessary if you want anything less than Somalia-market-style commerce and "consumer-last" governance of the market. Sorry, it violates ARFcom's rigid and mindless collective principles, but anyone with a shred of intelligence can figure out that the only thing worse than government intervention in the market is NO intervention in the market. I'm not going to burn calories giving examples, it's not hard to find historical & rhetorical ones that make this clear. The trick is a proper balance. The only restraint needed is some level of justice system for dealing with those who steal. Otherwise, the great interventions into the market (for example, Teddy's anti trust laws, meat packing laws, etc., were not necessary). |
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Milton Friedman on greed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A |
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Capitalism would work a lot better if the gov wouldn't interfere and fuck up the market Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Some restraint is, unfortunately, necessary if you want anything less than Somalia-market-style commerce and "consumer-last" governance of the market. Sorry, it violates ARFcom's rigid and mindless collective principles, but anyone with a shred of intelligence can figure out that the only thing worse than government intervention in the market is NO intervention in the market. I'm not going to burn calories giving examples, it's not hard to find historical & rhetorical ones that make this clear. The trick is a proper balance. Yep. Some limited controls are necessary to balance things out; if nothing else, without limits you can become a sort of tyranny of corportations, ruled by a new aristocracy. |
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Greed is a virtue, not a vice. I make something, I keep it. You want something I have then you give me something I want in return. If you don't have something I want, you don't get what I have. If you don't have something to trade you make something yourself or trade your services. Capitalism is creation. Communism is theft. It is an uneven transaction of my something for your nothing. I do not recognize "need" as a medium of exchange used to purchase (or above all to take) what is mine. If you don't have anything you claim you have need and use society to take what is mine. Society's "need" is immaterial, it is nothing. |
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The flaw is not greed, the only flaw is the gradual movement toward oligopoly. However, every capitalist system has had taxation/social engineering and a safety net (welfare) to encourage risk taking. Those who are in favor of complete abolishment of the safety net (rather than reform of abuse) are just as ignorant about capitalism as the Fabian socialists on the left side of the aisle.
Note that by taxation, I mean a progressive tax. A progressive tax isn't a bad thing, but we current have too much of it. It's misguided. Excessive regulation is what's usually to blame for cluster fucks like the current economic situation. |
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The flaw is not greed, the only flaw is the gradual movement toward oligopoly. However, every capitalist system has had taxation/social engineering and a safety net (welfare) to encourage risk taking. Those who are in favor of complete abolishment of the safety net (rather than reform of abuse) are just as ignorant about capitalism as the Fabian socialists on the left side of the aisle. Note that by taxation, I mean a progressive tax. A progressive tax isn't a bad thing, but we current have too much of it. It's misguided. Excessive regulation is what's usually to blame for cluster fucks like the current economic situation. Do tell me exactly how welfare promotes risk taking? The only reason not to get rid of the safety nets all together is that they are a necessary bribe to keep the filth from rioting and destroying the Republic. |
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Capitalism would work a lot better if the gov wouldn't interfere and fuck up the market Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Some restraint is, unfortunately, necessary if you want anything less than Somalia-market-style commerce and "consumer-last" governance of the market. Sorry, it violates ARFcom's rigid and mindless collective principles, but anyone with a shred of intelligence can figure out that the only thing worse than government intervention in the market is NO intervention in the market. I'm not going to burn calories giving examples, it's not hard to find historical & rhetorical ones that make this clear. The trick is a proper balance. Yep. Some limited controls are necessary to balance things out; if nothing else, without limits you can become a sort of tyranny of corportations, ruled by a new aristocracy. This... Swingset also points out what wasn't specifically said - some government is necessary, the trick of course is how much. Most arfcommers know which way the pendulum swung here. 
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Since today appears to be "screw you commie!" day, how bout bringing some balance to arfcom. I'm sure I'll need my flamesuit.
Communism is obviously flawed since everyone is supposed to be equal... Which in practice means there is no motivation, and invites government corruption. Obvious flaw with capitalism - avarice/greed. One of the biggie sins. Yet it's greatest asset as well. But in the capitalist world, if you can sell it and make a profit, it's OK. Theory says another competitor can come in and sell for less. In practice economies of scale and barriers to entry say that just ain't so. With true capitalism, the greatest power lies with captains of industry, not with government. At some point, compensation for work must outweigh motivation and simply become unnecessary. Obviously the progressive income tax was implemented with a similar thought in mind. That said, Capitalism is still way the f*ck better than Communism, Socialism, Fascism, or any other ism out there. I posted at length about this a few weeks ago and had the whole crew nipping at my ankles. I have no reverence toward capitalism. I'm a nationalist and Capitalism FREQUENTLY operates to the detriment of America. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Pure capitalism doesn't work any better than pure communism. How do you know? Has there ever been an instance of "pure capitalism?" Ours is far from it. Many third world countries are pretty close to what I see as "pure capitalism", or anarcho-capitalism as so many here seem to embrace. |
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Nothing created by the mind of imperfect man is pefect, that includes capitalism. It is, however, FAR superior to anything else yet devised.
ETA: the elegant genius of capitalism is that it takes a base human trait (greed) and channels that natural tendency in such a way that it produces good results for all, while at the same mitigating *some* of the worst negative effects of said greed. |
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Capitalism would work a lot better if the gov wouldn't interfere and fuck up the market Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Some restraint is, unfortunately, necessary if you want anything less than Somalia-market-style commerce and "consumer-last" governance of the market. Sorry, it violates ARFcom's rigid and mindless collective principles, but anyone with a shred of intelligence can figure out that the only thing worse than government intervention in the market is NO intervention in the market. I'm not going to burn calories giving examples, it's not hard to find historical & rhetorical ones that make this clear. The trick is a proper balance. Yep. Some limited controls are necessary to balance things out; if nothing else, without limits you can become a sort of tyranny of corportations, ruled by a new aristocracy. This... Swingset also points out what wasn't specifically said - some government is necessary, the trick of course is how much. Most arfcommers know which way the pendulum swung here. Capitalism is not a form of government. We do not need any laws interfering with the markets. This does not prohibit laws against 6 year olds in mines, dumping toxic waste into rivers, etc. Those laws are instituted by government not to interfere with the economy but to protect the rights of others. Dumping toxic waste into a river is a violation of the social contract since that action harms others. Interfering with capitalism is: minimum wage, bank bail-outs, regulation of anything financial, manipulative tarriffs, .gov protection and/or persecution of unions, etc. Laws against murder, rape, vandalism, destructive pollution, enslavement, etc are not. Those laws are necessary to protect individuals from others and prevent the breakdown of order (which prevents capitalism from flourishing) Properly "applied" capitalism has a national government that creates a framework of law and order specifically designed to keep those who would injure anothers rights from interfering with capitalism. This provides law and order and allows capitalism to flourish. Sounds like our government, huh? (as founded. )
The founding fathers recognized the existence of the phenomenon known as capitalism and merely created a governmental framework that PROTECTED it from evil. This government by nature also protected our individual rights in the process. Our government was designed to acknowledge capitalism, not "create" it. It is the only time I can think of where a government was created specifically to take advantage of human nature. I love it. |
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Pure capitalism doesn't work any better than pure communism. How do you know? Has there ever been an instance of "pure capitalism?" Ours is far from it. Many third world countries are pretty close to what I see as "pure capitalism", or anarcho-capitalism as so many here seem to embrace. Those countries are pure/almost anarchy. They do not have the .gov framework in place to allow capitalism to flourish. Our .gov is an entity that ENHANCES the effect of capitalism. They are ruled by mods using FORCE. The very existence of the mobs using force means they are NOT "capitalist". Nor are they capitalistic. They are a patchwork of little command economies. |
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Capitalism is the Least Evil of all forms of government. I believe Winston Churchill said that. Be careful to not blend it with government. Government isn't capitalism. The government's role in capitalism (real capitalism, not the socialism we've lived in for decades) is to get out of the way and bust up monopolies. |
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Capitalism is a term used to describe natural law. Capitalism is not a human devised system. People just recognized it, and pussies like Marx didn't like the reality of it, so they attempted to change nature. MOST of the people seen as "evil capitalists" are actually not capitalists at all. They are Randian looters who manipulate government for their own greedy ends. They use the force of law to enrich themselves instead of the force of effort, hard work, and determination. Listen to most people berating capitalism and look at their lives. It is usually very telling. Well said. TXL |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Capitalism would work a lot better if the gov wouldn't interfere and fuck up the market Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Some restraint is, unfortunately, necessary if you want anything less than Somalia-market-style commerce and "consumer-last" governance of the market. Sorry, it violates ARFcom's rigid and mindless collective principles, but anyone with a shred of intelligence can figure out that the only thing worse than government intervention in the market is NO intervention in the market. I'm not going to burn calories giving examples, it's not hard to find historical & rhetorical ones that make this clear. The trick is a proper balance. Yep. Some limited controls are necessary to balance things out; if nothing else, without limits you can become a sort of tyranny of corportations, ruled by a new aristocracy. This... Swingset also points out what wasn't specifically said - some government is necessary, the trick of course is how much. Most arfcommers know which way the pendulum swung here. Capitalism is not a form of government. We do not need any laws interfering with the markets. This does not prohibit laws against 6 year olds in mines, dumping toxic waste into rivers, etc. Those laws are instituted by government not to interfere with the economy but to protect the rights of others. Dumping toxic waste into a river is a violation of the social contract since that action harms others. Interfering with capitalism is: minimum wage, bank bail-outs, regulation of anything financial, manipulative tarriffs, .gov protection and/or persecution of unions, etc. Laws against murder, rape, vandalism, destructive pollution, enslavement, etc are not. Those laws are necessary to protect individuals from others and prevent the breakdown of order (which prevents capitalism from flourishing) Properly "applied" capitalism has a national government that creates a framework of law and order specifically designed to keep those who would injure anothers rights from interfering with capitalism. This provides law and order and allows capitalism to flourish. Sounds like our government, huh? (as founded. )The founding fathers recognized the existence of the phenomenon known as capitalism and merely created a governmental framework that PROTECTED it from evil. This government by nature also protected our individual rights in the process. Our government was designed to acknowledge capitalism, not "create" it. It is the only time I can think of where a government was created specifically to take advantage of human nature. I love it. By your logic, one could make the case for Cap & Trade, and you could also make the case against anti-trust legislation. If you really believe the government should have no regulation of anything financial, God help you I'd love to see you live in the America you envision....because it would be a fucking zoo, one that has never been btw. Oh, and no matter what the Founding Fathers espoused, their application of laws to protect capitalism from evil, the market has always been tempered by government intervention. Even immediately following the inception of our government, right up until the sweat-shops of the Industrial Revolution, the American system of government has been struggling with how to protect the market without letting it eat itself. Sometimes it does too much, and it's bad. Sometimes it doesn't do anything, and that's even worse. I'm not a statist, I always want less of government but acknowledge some has to exist. I think you're delusional if you think unrestrained commerce & financial markets can work...especially in the digital, global age. |
Capitalism has only one flaw and that is the fact that it is easy for monopolies to form and worse yet act as monopolies. But our govt. has addressed that with very good federal laws. It is only when our power hungry, ignorant, "greedy" rulers fuck with capitalism and then blame capitalism itself for the problems they cause that we have problems. Our enemy is the govt., not the system.
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The flaw is not greed, the only flaw is the gradual movement toward oligopoly. However, every capitalist system has had taxation/social engineering and a safety net (welfare) to encourage risk taking. Those who are in favor of complete abolishment of the safety net (rather than reform of abuse) are just as ignorant about capitalism as the Fabian socialists on the left side of the aisle. Note that by taxation, I mean a progressive tax. A progressive tax isn't a bad thing, but we current have too much of it. It's misguided. Excessive regulation is what's usually to blame for cluster fucks like the current economic situation. spoken like a true moderate. TXL |