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Posted: 3/3/2002 11:29:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2002 11:34:04 AM EDT by tayous1]
New Front on Ecoterror? Some Want to Target High-Profile Activists in Battle on Ecoterror By Dean Schabner Feb. 26 — Some congressmen and industry advocates want the federal government to take a hard look at some well-known animal rights and environmental groups, and maybe shut them down as supporters of terrorism. Print This Page Email This Page See Most Sent MORE ON THIS STORY COMMUNITY • Treat Ecoterror Groups Like al Qaeda? RELATED STORIES • Animal Rights Groups Wage War on Banks • PETA: Bring On Foot-and-Mouth Disease • The Battle Over Animal Rights • Already Active ELF Extending Range • Environment Group Admits Burning Homes • Tree Spiking Suspect Linked to ELF • Saving the Earth, One Arson at a Time • Extreme Environmentalists Target Industry • Eco-Militants Frustrate the Law • Are Monarchies' Days Numbered? • Software Screens Out Terrorist Customers • Catching Shooters Blue-Handed The idea was floated earlier this month at a congressional subcommittee hearing on ecoterrorism by Richard Berman, the executive director of a group called the Center for Consumer Freedom. Berman, whose group represents restaurant and tavern owners and advocates protecting "the public's right to a full menu of dining and entertainment choices," said a number of high-profile activist groups, including People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, have links to groups named on the FBI's domestic terrorism list, such as the Earth Liberation Front. He came to the hearing advocating that the government wage war against domestic terrorism the way the war has been waged against accused terror mastermind Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network — not just by going after those who carry out illegal acts, but by trying to cut off financial support for organizations identified as being terrorist. In cases of domestic offenders, he said the federal government could crack down by revoking the tax-free status of not-for-profit organizations found to fund domestic terror groups. "I'd like Congress to look at the tax-exempt status of groups like PETA," Berman told ABCNEWS.com. "I don't see this being any different from George Bush being able to shut down foundations funneling money to al Qaeda. The difference in degree of activity doesn't mean anything if you're on the receiving end of it." Cont
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 11:29:53 AM EDT
Where Does the Money Come From? Berman was dismissed by officials at PETA and Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine — another group that he accused of ties to organizations that have been linked to criminal activity — as a showman doing his best to earn his paycheck as a lobbyist for restaurant and tavern chains. But many members of the House Resources Subcommittee on Forests and Forest Health seemed to take him more seriously. "I would say there is real cause for concern," said Joshua Penry, the staff director of the subcommittee. "A lot of the evidence is circumstantial, but in some cases it's deeply troubling." As one piece of evidence, Berman submitted a federal tax return showing that PETA gave $1,500 to ELF, which has taken credit and been blamed for millions of dollars in vandalism in recent years. "The reality is these groups are getting their money from somewhere," Penry said. "That's the question, just where are these groups getting their money?" James Jarboe, the domestic terrorism chief of the FBI's Counterterrorism Division, said during testimony at the hearing that ELF and the related Animal Liberation Front have caused more than $43 million in damage in more than 600 attacks since 1996, including the firebombing of the Vail ski resort in 1998, which did $12 million in damages. The FBI calls both groups terrorist operations. "These are hardened criminals," said subcommittee Chairman Rep. Scott McInnis, R-Colo. "They are dangerous, they are well-funded, they are savvy, sophisticated and stealthy, and if their violence continues to escalate, it is only a matter of time before their parade of terror results in a lost human life." cont
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 11:32:31 AM EDT
Members of ALF, ELF Elusive The two groups have managed to almost completely elude law enforcement, despite not being shy about trumpeting their successes. They issued a joint statement in January claiming responsibility for 67 illegal acts last year, including setting a fire that destroyed a $5.4 million horticulture building at the University of Washington. The fact that many Americans support protecting the environment and oppose cruelty to animals, combined with the success of ELF and ALF in avoiding any human casualties in their attacks, seems to some of the lawmakers at the hearing to have created undue sympathy for the activist groups. "We must strip away the Robin Hood mystique and perceived high ground that some have given these radicals," McInnis said. "It's just a matter of time before a human life is taken." The lawmakers were thwarted in their efforts to get information about ELF and its backers from a Portland, Ore., man who has acted as the group's spokesman. Craig Rosebraugh took the Fifth Amendment more than 50 times when he appeared before the subcommittee. Outside the hearing room he also refused to answer reporters' questions. FBI and Justice Department officials declined to comment on whether efforts to break up ELF and ALF have gone beyond more traditional law enforcement practices to include any attempt to cut off funding. PETA: We’re Strictly Legal Berman's accusations against PETA also included a claim that the group gave money to Rodney Coronado, who was convicted of arson for setting fires at fur farms, and to Josh Harper, who was "arrested a half-dozen times and convicted of assault on a police officer." The president of PETA, Ingrid Newkirk, said Harper was "the guy who hit a police officer with a piece of tofu during a demonstration" and said the group does contribute to the legal funds of those arrested in animal rights demonstrations. "For young activists who sometimes get overzealous we do provide for the right to counsel, which is a fundamental American right," she said. Newkirk said the group would never give money to be used to support violence or anything illegal, but said she did not remember the check to ELF, which was reported on the organization's 2000 tax return. "We have an annual budget of $17 million and he has to go back two years to find something for $1,500," Newkirk said. "It certainly wasn't for anything that he would like it to be for because we don't fund anything that's illegal." cont
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 11:33:22 AM EDT
SHAC Attack Berman's accusation against Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, a group that advocates a non-meat, non-dairy vegan diet as the healthiest way to eat, was based on a letter that was co-signed by PCRM President Dr. Neal Barnard and Kevin Jonas, who heads a group called SHAC, for Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty. The letter was sent to dozens of companies asking them not to do business with Huntingdon Life Sciences, a British research firm that also operates in the United States. Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty, ALF and others have battered away at the lab's financial backers with e-mails, threats, protests and bad publicity to convince investors to pull out. The groups have been known to post the telephone numbers and e-mail addresses of bank officials on their Web sites, urging supporters to call and write often. Supporters of the groups and their cause have destroyed the property of Huntingdon backers, but no one has been convicted of any of the crimes or linked directly to the groups. PCRM's Barnard said the inclusion of his group by Berman was just another attack by an industry lobbyist. "It is unfortunate that the tobacco, meat, and dairy industries have launched a hate campaign against health and humane advocates," Barnard said. "Now that an average American's cancer risk has reached one in three, the tobacco, meat, and dairy interests are trying to obscure their roles in this disease. "This is America and people can say what they want. If it gets to the point of libel, we will sue them," he added. Elusive Opponents If federal officials were to go after backers of groups like ELF and ALF, it's not clear what impact their efforts would have. The groups have Web sites, but given the lack of evidence of any kind of structural organization within the groups, it is not clear how much of a role funding plays in their ability to act. According to law enforcement officials, both ELF and ALF seem to work more as grass-roots operations than many radical groups. There are no identified leadership figures, and those who act as spokespeople for the two groups have thus far avoided being convicted of any criminal links to the organizations. Recent arrests on Long Island, N.Y., and in Phoenix for crimes believed to have been committed by ELF cells do not seem to have led law enforcement officials to any broader organization. The Phoenix man who admitted setting fire to several houses being built on the edge of a nature preserve also lived in the housing development and said he was just angry that others were moving in. In the Long Island arsons, three teenagers were arrested in February 2001 and confessed to setting fires and committing vandalism in a luxury housing development. They said they were members of ELF, but no other arrests have followed. [url]http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/ecoterror_support020226.html[/url]
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 11:35:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2002 11:46:18 AM EDT by djk]
PETA can protest all they want. When they fund terror organizations that destroy property and lives, they should lose their tax exempt status and be closed down. Period. Edited cuz I can't spell worth carp.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 11:42:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 11:47:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2002 12:07:58 PM EDT by gardenWeasel]
Tayous1, where did your statement about their right to protest go? Did you change you mind that quickly? Kind of shows you why you should not base your initial opinion on the un-researched public relations campaigns being passed off as journalism these days. Always look for another source. Go look at the ELF website. The first thing there is: Setting Fires With Electrical Timers - An Earth Liberation Front Guide The politics and practicalities of arson. Down-to-earth advice and comprehensive how-to's about devices, fuel requirements, timers, security and more. Available high quality for printing (17.2 Meg) and a lower quality for reading (2.6 Meg)
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 11:49:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: These leftist terrorists have declared war on the United States of America and should be dealt with accordingly wherever they are found.
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You know it's nice to now see the new's reporting this. It's a real kick in the A$$ for all them PETA people. So I had to send it to my brother in Law how is apart of PETA. I'll tell you guy's what he say's about this.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 11:53:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By gardenWeasel: Tayous1, where did your statement about their right to protest go? Did you change you mind that quickly? Don't base your opinion on the the public relations campaigns passed off as journalism these days, go and look at the source.
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This was sent to me by e-mail. The person who sent it to me wrote that and I was that I places his opion up so I took it off. But I can see where you think I'm just taking public relations.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 12:19:54 PM EDT
If the names of these groups were the United Northern Militia or Patriots for the Preservation of the Constitution instead of PETA or ELF they would have already been disbanded and everyone would be in jail. The BATF needs to be assaulting these people instead of churches. Station old Lon Horiuchi out in the middle of some logging land waiting to snipe a few of those tree spikers. That'll make em think twice before pulling stupid shit like that.....
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 12:26:15 PM EDT
Yeah yeah, everybody knows that PETA are morons with an agenda......BUT.....who will be next on the "domestic terrorist" list. This stuff is exactly what we had hoped they *wouldn't* do with the Patriot Act, and tadaaaaa!...... I wonder who makes the list next. Place your bets. All domestic dissenters, watch your 6. Tomorrow YOU may be the prey.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 12:35:18 PM EDT
It's about time these groups were treated as criminal organizations. They have been destroying property and infringing on people rights for years. Burning houses spiking trees and throwing red paint on peoples fur coats.....This has nothing to do with 9/11, it's just time for these immature people to be treated like the crminals they are.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 12:40:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: If the names of these groups were the United Northern Militia or Patriots for the Preservation of the Constitution instead of PETA or ELF they would have already been disbanded and everyone would be in jail. The BATF needs to be assaulting these people instead of churches. Station old Lon Horiuchi out in the middle of some logging land waiting to snipe a few of those tree spikers. That'll make em think twice before pulling stupid shit like that.....
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You're damn skippy they would be! What do you think the batmen would do if we posted articles like that here? "how to machine and auto sear the easy way" or "how to build a kickass supressor"? They'd be on it like white on rice!
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 12:41:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dale007: It's about time these groups were treated as criminal organizations. They have been destroying property and infringing on people rights for years. Burning houses spiking trees and throwing red paint on peoples fur coats.....This has nothing to do with 9/11, it's just time for these immature people to be treated like the crminals they are.
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I've always wanted one of them to try throwing paint on me. "really officer, I was in fear for my life! I thought he was throwing acid at me!"
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 12:43:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 1:10:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2002 1:11:41 PM EDT by Hannah_Reitsch]
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: AG Reno (Ol' Shake-N-Bake) boldly declared publicly that various "militia" groups were "domestic terrorists," especially after April 19, 1995 (Oklahoma City Terrorist Attack). Nothing has really been accomplished against these "public enemies" because--SURPRISE!!--they're not terrorists.
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Oh, dear Beekeeper, I wish you were right...but every week seems to bring a new report of some militia person or another being either set-up, entrapped, or busted and slandered by the enemy. It is so sad to watch even their friends and family back away and distance themselves, as they realize they could very well be next. Think about it, a LOT of militia folks have been taken down in the last couple of months......many for little or no reason. No, I *don't* buy into the "official govt. stories".....since when have they EVER told us the truth? A few branches of PETA are indeed watermelon commies, (green on the outside, red on the inside), but I venture the group also includes folks that don't like cosmetics being squirted in rabbits' eyes, some health freak vegans, and a number of schoolchidren who may have seen Bambi a few times too many. I am bothered when the feds put legal American orgs. on their "list". I am even more bothered that the Patriot act was sold to us as something to only be used against foreigners, never against our own folks. They have lied to us again, duh! (What a surprise!) And NO, I don't care for the bunny-hugger agenda, but they have a right to their opinions as well as we do. A tiny fraction of those morons are the law breakers, not the majority. Sound familiar yet?
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 1:17:46 PM EDT
This is just a little more enforcement on what is the government going to go after next? They are trying to take out the left wing people first that they think is a threat to them. Just think we are more of a threat they most any group out there. Yes we don't go out vandalizing privet or public property. But we are 20,000+ members strong all sporting a gun and ammo and willing to die for it. If I was someone who would look for group's that would be a threat I would just look here. Maybe I'm wrong? We soon might be threat to the government next then they will be coming after us. Just a thought.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 1:20:58 PM EDT
Hannah, If PETA is supporting bombings and attacks on people, they are not a legal american orgnization. If anyone supports bombings and attacks on people and property they are also not legal American organizations, no matter what agenda they support. This includes extremist militia nut jobs just as it does eco terrorist nut jobs.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 1:22:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hannah_Reitsch: Yeah yeah, everybody knows that PETA are morons with an agenda......BUT.....who will be next on the "domestic terrorist" list. This stuff is exactly what we had hoped they *wouldn't* do with the Patriot Act, and tadaaaaa!...... I wonder who makes the list next. Place your bets. All domestic dissenters, watch your 6. Tomorrow YOU may be the prey.
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Hannah, some of these groups really are terrorist organizations. I don't know enough about PETA to say, but the "Earth Liberation Front" (ELF) is responsible for thousands of dollars of vandalism as well as burning research documents at the university I attend. My point is, ELF is a legitimate target, hardly being a mere "domestic dissenter".
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 1:26:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2002 1:29:09 PM EDT by ARlady]
Originally Posted By Dale007: It's about time these groups were treated as criminal organizations.
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beware this line of thinking. they are not necessarily criminal organizations. they are organizations that commit criminal acts. while i would go so far as to say [i]some[/i] are criminal organizations (when their very purpose and acts are criminal, ELF is a prime example), not all of them fall under the banner of criminal organization.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 1:31:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2002 1:32:16 PM EDT by djk]
Originally Posted By ARlady: beware this line of thinking. they are not necessarily criminal organizations. they are organizations that commit criminal acts. while i would go so far as to say [i]some[/i] are criminal organizations (when their very purpose and acts are criminal, ELF is a prime example), not all of them fall under the banner of criminal organization.
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organizations that commit criminal acts = criminal organizations organizations that knowingly support criminal acts = criminal organizations
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 1:35:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2002 1:36:49 PM EDT by AZCOP]
Sierra Club, ALF, ELF, PETA, Earth First: All domestic terrorist groups. Jay [img]http://www.commspeed.net/jmurray/images/iroc-cop.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 1:37:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jtw2:
Originally Posted By Dale007: It's about time these groups were treated as criminal organizations. They have been destroying property and infringing on people rights for years. Burning houses spiking trees and throwing red paint on peoples fur coats.....This has nothing to do with 9/11, it's just time for these immature people to be treated like the crminals they are.
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I've always wanted one of them to try throwing paint on me. "really officer, I was in fear for my life! I thought he was throwing acid at me!"
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Or did you think it was AIDS-tainted blood?
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 1:40:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 1:48:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: ARlady has a good point. Do we wish to name all Christians "murderers" as a result of the very, very few nutcases who murder abortion doctors. Should the country shut down all Christian churches as "terrorist organizations" due to an incident or two of true terrorism committed by someone who claims to have done it in the name of Christianity? There is a very fine line here to be straddled carefully. I hate the left, so fine, shut them down if ten members burn down a building, but, as I have no beef with churches, leave them alone when a sniper takes out an abortion doctor? I don't think so.
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If the church knowingly supports the sniper, yes, it should be shut down. Same goes for the eco-turds.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 1:50:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By djk: Hannah, If PETA is supporting bombings and attacks on people, they are not a legal american orgnization. If anyone supports bombings and attacks on people and property they are also not legal American organizations, no matter what agenda they support. This includes extremist militia nut jobs just as it does eco terrorist nut jobs.
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What do you think of the IRA?
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 2:01:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tayous1:
Originally Posted By djk: Hannah, If PETA is supporting bombings and attacks on people, they are not a legal american orgnization. If anyone supports bombings and attacks on people and property they are also not legal American organizations, no matter what agenda they support. This includes extremist militia nut jobs just as it does eco terrorist nut jobs.
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What do you think of the IRA?
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See the quote of mine above.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 2:05:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By djk:
Originally Posted By ARlady: beware this line of thinking. they are not necessarily criminal organizations. they are organizations that commit criminal acts. while i would go so far as to say [i]some[/i] are criminal organizations (when their very purpose and acts are criminal, ELF is a prime example), not all of them fall under the banner of criminal organization.
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organizations that commit criminal acts = criminal organizations organizations that knowingly support criminal acts = criminal organizations
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not true. there are organizations whose members commit criminal acts. but this in no way means that the organization itself is criminal.
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: ARlady has a good point. Do we wish to name all Christians "murderers" as a result of the very, very few nutcases who murder abortion doctors. Should the country shut down all Christian churches as "terrorist organizations" due to an incident or two of true terrorism committed by someone who claims to have done it in the name of Christianity? There is a very fine line here to be straddled carefully. I hate the left, so fine, shut them down if ten members burn down a building, but, as I have no beef with churches, leave them alone when a sniper takes out an abortion doctor? I don't think so.
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If the church knowingly supports the sniper, yes, it should be shut down. Same goes for the eco-turds
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i think you missed the gist of beekeeper's post. not ALL churches are guilty of murder just because a 'Christian' murders an abortion doctor. i think what some of you fail to realize is that members of organizations can and do commit criminal acts, outside the auspices of the organization. sure, they may say it was because of the organization. for example, some eco-nut is a member of Defenders of Wildlife, who happen to have a campaign to reintroduce wolves into their native habitat. some farmer shoots a wolf. said DoW member shoots farmer. DoW isn't a terrorist organization just because one of its members commited a criminal act, even though the motivation was in an effort to pursue the goals of the organization. just as we are not criminals by owning guns simply because someone uses a gun to commit a crime.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 2:11:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2002 2:13:58 PM EDT by djk]
Originally Posted By ARlady:
Originally Posted By djk:
Originally Posted By ARlady: beware this line of thinking. they are not necessarily criminal organizations. they are organizations that commit criminal acts. while i would go so far as to say [i]some[/i] are criminal organizations (when their very purpose and acts are criminal, ELF is a prime example), not all of them fall under the banner of criminal organization.
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organizations that commit criminal acts = criminal organizations organizations that knowingly support criminal acts = criminal organizations
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not true. there are organizations whose members commit criminal acts. but this in no way means that the organization itself is criminal.
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I agree with you, but you need to read what I posted more carefully. The key word is "knowingly" support. I know what you are saying but you did not read what I posted.
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: ARlady has a good point. Do we wish to name all Christians "murderers" as a result of the very, very few nutcases who murder abortion doctors. Should the country shut down all Christian churches as "terrorist organizations" due to an incident or two of true terrorism committed by someone who claims to have done it in the name of Christianity? There is a very fine line here to be straddled carefully. I hate the left, so fine, shut them down if ten members burn down a building, but, as I have no beef with churches, leave them alone when a sniper takes out an abortion doctor? I don't think so.
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If the church knowingly supports the sniper, yes, it should be shut down. Same goes for the eco-turds
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i think you missed the gist of beekeeper's post. not ALL churches are guilty of murder just because a 'Christian' murders an abortion doctor. i think what some of you fail to realize is that members of organizations can and do commit criminal acts, outside the auspices of the organization. sure, they may say it was because of the organization. for example, some eco-nut is a member of Defenders of Wildlife, who happen to have a campaign to reintroduce wolves into their native habitat. some farmer shoots a wolf. said DoW member shoots farmer. DoW isn't a terrorist organization just because one of its members commited a criminal act, even though the motivation was in an effort to pursue the goals of the organization. just as we are not criminals by owning guns simply because someone uses a gun to commit a crime.
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The key word here again is "knowingly". And yes, if a church knowingly supports a sniper in his quest, they should be shut down.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 2:22:20 PM EDT
AR Lady PULLEEZZEE!
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 2:23:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By djk:
Originally Posted By tayous1:
Originally Posted By djk: Hannah, If PETA is supporting bombings and attacks on people, they are not a legal american orgnization. If anyone supports bombings and attacks on people and property they are also not legal American organizations, no matter what agenda they support. This includes extremist militia nut jobs just as it does eco terrorist nut jobs.
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What do you think of the IRA?
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See the quote of mine above.
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So you think that people who are fighting for there freedom are bad? You also think that people or company that help the IRA should be shut down right? Well let me tell you something I glad a lot of people like you where not around during the revolution or we would have lost. Or maybe I'm wrong because I don't think that any country should be able to enslave another and not let them to have there own government? I also guess that William Wallace was also one of these bad people because the British king did not like him and from what you are saying he was a militant trying to over power the current government?
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 2:30:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2002 2:34:46 PM EDT by djk]
Tayous1, So you are telling me that you support blowing up innocent people to support a cause? Seems to me the revolutionary war was fought against the british army, not by blowing up coffee shops and tourist attractions. Edited: And do you also support the Palestinian suicide bombers blowing up shopping malls?
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 2:39:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARlady: i think what some of you fail to realize is that members of organizations can and do commit criminal acts, outside the auspices of the organization. sure, they may say it was because of the organization. for example, some eco-nut is a member of Defenders of Wildlife, who happen to have a campaign to reintroduce wolves into their native habitat. some farmer shoots a wolf. said DoW member shoots farmer. DoW isn't a terrorist organization just because one of its members commited a criminal act, even though the motivation was in an effort to pursue the goals of the organization. just as we are not criminals by owning guns simply because someone uses a gun to commit a crime.
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Your logic is way out there ARlady. If an organization's members have a higher propensity of violence than another's, then why shouldn't the gov step in and give em a good ass kicking? They may not financially support criminal activities, but they sure as hell might condone them!
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 2:44:44 PM EDT
James Jarboe, the domestic terrorism chief of the FBI's Counterterrorism Division, said during testimony at the hearing that ELF and the related Animal Liberation Front have caused more than $43 million in damage in more than 600 attacks since 1996, including the firebombing of the Vail ski resort in 1998, which did $12 million in damages. The FBI calls both groups terrorist operations. If this were ANY other organization...they would have stopped it 5 years ago. 600 attacks in 6 years....absolutely amazing. Make no mistake...this is terror. [b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 2:50:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By djk: Tayous1, So you are telling me that you support blowing up innocent people to support a cause? Seems to me the revolutionary war was fought against the british army, not by blowing up coffee shops and tourist attractions. Edited: And do you also support the Palestinian suicide bombers blowing up shopping malls?
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In the war to freedom to get back what is your there are no Innocent's to get what you want you have to do what you have to do. The Palestinians have no right to Israel the Jewish where there long before they where even around. I'm guessing more then in the American revolution we did kill the innocent! Are government still does it to this day. Don't think that the U.S. Government has NEVER killed any innocent at all because if you do think that then there is nothing more I can say to you. During the Civil war we killed innocent both north and south. Tourist know there is a civil war going on there. They are no forced to be there they go on there own. I'm not going to cry if I go to Israel and there is a bomb that goes off by where Christ held the last supper? No I know what is going on around there and I know what could happen to me if I do go. Tourist have to take reasonability for there own action's. Long live the IRA, and freedom to Ireland.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 3:07:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tayous1:
Originally Posted By djk: Tayous1, So you are telling me that you support blowing up innocent people to support a cause? Seems to me the revolutionary war was fought against the british army, not by blowing up coffee shops and tourist attractions. Edited: And do you also support the Palestinian suicide bombers blowing up shopping malls?
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In the war to freedom to get back what is your there are no Innocent's to get what you want you have to do what you have to do. The Palestinians have no right to Israel the Jewish where there long before they where even around. I'm guessing more then in the American revolution we did kill the innocent! Are government still does it to this day. Don't think that the U.S. Government has NEVER killed any innocent at all because if you do think that then there is nothing more I can say to you. During the Civil war we killed innocent both north and south. Tourist know there is a civil war going on there. They are no forced to be there they go on there own. I'm not going to cry if I go to Israel and there is a bomb that goes off by where Christ held the last supper? No I know what is going on around there and I know what could happen to me if I do go. Tourist have to take reasonability for there own action's. Long live the IRA, and freedom to Ireland.
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Websters new world dictionary defines terrorism as: "the use of force or threats to intimidate, etc., esp. as a political policy" Your statements sound just like the Al qaeda justifying the 9/11 attacks. Pretty scary.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 3:33:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By djk: I agree with you, but you need to read what I posted more carefully. The key word is "knowingly" support. I know what you are saying but you did not read what I posted.
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ah, yes, attack the reading comprehension. the problem is that i did read what you wrote, but i also read what i typed. and i left out two words that change the whole point of my post. as you can tell by my second post, i meant to say this rather than what i originally posted.
Originally Posted By ARlady: beware this line of thinking. they are not necessarily criminal organizations. they are organizations [blue]with members[/blue] that commit criminal acts. while i would go so far as to say [i]some[/i] are criminal organizations (when their very purpose and acts are criminal, ELF is a prime example), not all of them fall under the banner of criminal organization.
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that is the distinction i was going for. my thoughts are faster than my typing and i got ahead of myself. i would agree with you that organizations that support criminal acts from the very top to the very bottom could be considered criminal organizations. so puhleeeze, yourself, Dale007.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 3:38:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Minman72: Your logic is way out there ARlady. If an organization's members have a higher propensity of violence than another's, then why shouldn't the gov step in and give em a good ass kicking? They may not financially support criminal activities, but they sure as hell might condone them!
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not so far out there as you would like to think. you want to play this game you have to apply the same standards to both sides: the ones you like and the ones you don't. an organization is not necessarily culpable for the actions of its members. let's use and example on [i]our[/i] side of the equation. let's suppose that a man is a member of the NRA, GOA, and a few other organizations that support the 2nd amendment. now let's suppose same man is sick and tired of politicians messing with his RKBA. let's say he shoots and kills a few of the most vocal and active anti-gun politicians. would you say, then, that the NRA, GOA, and the other organizations to which he belongs are guilty simply because he is a member of them and is taking action to further their agenda? you did for the eco nuts. you must for this example too. do you see the point i'm trying to make? not all members' actions are sanctioned by the organization in question. and as such, the organization itself may not be criminal in nature.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 3:46:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARlady:
Originally Posted By Minman72: Your logic is way out there ARlady. If an organization's members have a higher propensity of violence than another's, then why shouldn't the gov step in and give em a good ass kicking? They may not financially support criminal activities, but they sure as hell might condone them!
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not so far out there as you would like to think. you want to play this game you have to apply the same standards to both sides: the ones you like and the ones you don't. an organization is not necessarily culpable for the actions of its members. let's use and example on [i]our[/i] side of the equation. let's suppose that a man is a member of the NRA, GOA, and a few other organizations that support the 2nd amendment. now let's suppose same man is sick and tired of politicians messing with his RKBA. let's say he shoots and kills a few of the most vocal and active anti-gun politicians. would you say, then, that the NRA, GOA, and the other organizations to which he belongs are guilty simply because he is a member of them and is taking action to further their agenda? you did for the eco nuts. you must for this example too. do you see the point i'm trying to make? not all members' actions are sanctioned by the organization in question. and as such, the organization itself may not be criminal in nature.
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ARLady, We have already determined that individuals can and will do bad things. If they are knowingly supported by an organization, then that organization is also to blame. If you are a member of an org. and you do something bad, the org is not to blame. If someone belongs to an org, and that org pays for the ammunition, or enables the person to do the bad thing in some way, then they should be held responsible.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 3:53:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARlady: i would agree with you that organizations that support criminal acts from the very top to the very bottom could be considered criminal organizations.
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So you are saying that an organization has to be completely corrupt to be criminal. That's a pretty tall order, isn't it? Everyone has to be corrupt....even the guy who takes out the garbage. "I'm takin out this grabage, but it is a good thing because I'm supporting the company in blowing up something" This is pretty interesting...[puke]
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 3:54:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By djk:
Originally Posted By tayous1:
Originally Posted By djk: Tayous1, So you are telling me that you support blowing up innocent people to support a cause? Seems to me the revolutionary war was fought against the british army, not by blowing up coffee shops and tourist attractions. Edited: And do you also support the Palestinian suicide bombers blowing up shopping malls?
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In the war to freedom to get back what is your there are no Innocent's to get what you want you have to do what you have to do. The Palestinians have no right to Israel the Jewish where there long before they where even around. I'm guessing more then in the American revolution we did kill the innocent! Are government still does it to this day. Don't think that the U.S. Government has NEVER killed any innocent at all because if you do think that then there is nothing more I can say to you. During the Civil war we killed innocent both north and south. Tourist know there is a civil war going on there. They are no forced to be there they go on there own. I'm not going to cry if I go to Israel and there is a bomb that goes off by where Christ held the last supper? No I know what is going on around there and I know what could happen to me if I do go. Tourist have to take reasonability for there own action's. Long live the IRA, and freedom to Ireland.
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Websters new world dictionary defines terrorism as: "the use of force or threats to intimidate, etc., esp. as a political policy" Your statements sound just like the Al qaeda justifying the 9/11 attacks. Pretty scary.
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THEN WE THE UNTIED STATES ARE TERRORIST.... What I think is scary is you mixing up being a freedom fighter with a terrorist. You must not be getting it thought we have done the same thing that these people we are calling terrorist have done and worse. What would you call what Clinton did to get people off his back about getting a B? Well I think that would be called a terrorist attack. He had bombs dropped on towns so the news media would leave him alone now maybe you can see that not being a terrorist attack but I do. What the IRA is doing is fighting for there land that is theres that the British government has taken over and held a dictatorship over not letting the people pick there own government the British are the terrorist not like they also don't kill innocents. The British also invaded Ireland and took there government over now you may think that is ok but I don't. They are doing the same thing we did in 1778. I you do not belive in that for your land and freedom there is no cost great enough then you might as well have stayed a slave. This is what America was built on that is why it is feared and so great.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 4:03:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2002 4:05:15 PM EDT by djk]
Originally Posted By tayous1:
Originally Posted By djk:
Originally Posted By tayous1:
Originally Posted By djk: Tayous1, So you are telling me that you support blowing up innocent people to support a cause? Seems to me the revolutionary war was fought against the british army, not by blowing up coffee shops and tourist attractions. Edited: And do you also support the Palestinian suicide bombers blowing up shopping malls?
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In the war to freedom to get back what is your there are no Innocent's to get what you want you have to do what you have to do. The Palestinians have no right to Israel the Jewish where there long before they where even around. I'm guessing more then in the American revolution we did kill the innocent! Are government still does it to this day. Don't think that the U.S. Government has NEVER killed any innocent at all because if you do think that then there is nothing more I can say to you. During the Civil war we killed innocent both north and south. Tourist know there is a civil war going on there. They are no forced to be there they go on there own. I'm not going to cry if I go to Israel and there is a bomb that goes off by where Christ held the last supper? No I know what is going on around there and I know what could happen to me if I do go. Tourist have to take reasonability for there own action's. Long live the IRA, and freedom to Ireland.
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Websters new world dictionary defines terrorism as: "the use of force or threats to intimidate, etc., esp. as a political policy" Your statements sound just like the Al qaeda justifying the 9/11 attacks. Pretty scary.
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THEN WE THE UNTIED STATES ARE TERRORIST.... What I think is scary is you mixing up being a freedom fighter with a terrorist. You must not be getting it thought we have done the same thing that these people we are calling terrorist have done and worse. What would you call what Clinton did to get people off his back about getting a B? Well I think that would be called a terrorist attack. He had bombs dropped on towns so the news media would leave him alone now maybe you can see that not being a terrorist attack but I do. What the IRA is doing is fighting for there land that is theres that the British government has taken over and held a dictatorship over not letting the people pick there own government the British are the terrorist not like they also don't kill innocents. The British also invaded Ireland and took there government over now you may think that is ok but I don't. They are doing the same thing we did in 1778. I you do not belive in that for your land and freedom there is no cost great enough then you might as well have stayed a slave. This is what America was built on that is why it is feared and so great.
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Your freedom fighter is my terrorist. Knowingly targeting civilians with pipe bombs is called terrorism. Deal with it. What Billy boy did was also wrong, but that's already been rehashed a million times.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 4:08:49 PM EDT
I support PETA on the scientific use of animals issue. We don't have to test these products on animals. Use the criminals in jail for that. As far as the fur issue goes, I don't support fur farms. Alot of people buy mink ONLY because of the social scene. Screw that. Use fake fur. But I don't support the vegan agenda, nor do I support the anti-hunting aganda, as long as hunters are responsible, and use the animal they kill, instead of just trophy hunting. I have a leather jacket that I wear nd have no problems with it becuase cows are also eaten. THe whole animal is put to use, not just the skin. The point is that I support them on certian fronts, and because of that I send money (not much). But I also belong to the NRA, even though they don't support the ownership of "assault" weapons. But they are pro Second Amendment. [smoke]
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 4:13:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By djk:
Originally Posted By tayous1:
Originally Posted By djk:
Originally Posted By tayous1:
Originally Posted By djk: Your freedom fighter is my terrorist. Knowingly targeting civilians with pipe bombs is called terrorism. Deal with it. What Billy boy did was also wrong, but that's already been rehashed a million times.
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And you are a SLAVE that would just let anyone walk all over you so you might just give up your rifle and life and move with the rest of the slaves in France. So deal with that. But your missing the Fact what Billy boy DID WAS A TERRORIST ACT so as you say we should shut down the government for doing so. Right? I guess to you willing knowing targeting civilian with bombs is not a terrorist act. It being rehashed still does not give the fact up that it was a terroriest act. That is fact so as I said befor we are just as bad
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 4:15:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hydguy: I support PETA on the scientific use of animals issue. We don't have to test these products on animals. Use the criminals in jail for that. As far as the fur issue goes, I don't support fur farms. Alot of people buy mink ONLY because of the social scene. Screw that. Use fake fur. But I don't support the vegan agenda, nor do I support the anti-hunting aganda, as long as hunters are responsible, and use the animal they kill, instead of just trophy hunting. I have a leather jacket that I wear nd have no problems with it becuase cows are also eaten. THe whole animal is put to use, not just the skin. The point is that I support them on certian fronts, and because of that I send money (not much). But I also belong to the NRA, even though they don't support the ownership of "assault" weapons. But they are pro Second Amendment. [smoke]
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But do you support PETA sending your money to people so they can blow up buildings and beat people up? Give the PETA money to your local animal shelter...they need it more than PETA does.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 4:29:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2002 4:31:21 PM EDT by djk]
Originally Posted By tayous1:
Originally Posted By djk:
Originally Posted By tayous1:
Originally Posted By djk:
Originally Posted By tayous1:
Originally Posted By djk: Your freedom fighter is my terrorist. Knowingly targeting civilians with pipe bombs is called terrorism. Deal with it. What Billy boy did was also wrong, but that's already been rehashed a million times.
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And you are a SLAVE that would just let anyone walk all over you so you might just give up your rifle and life and move with the rest of the slaves in France. So deal with that. But your missing the Fact what Billy boy DID WAS A TERRORIST ACT so as you say we should shut down the government for doing so. Right? I guess to you willing knowing targeting civilian with bombs is not a terrorist act. It being rehashed still does not give the fact up that it was a terroriest act. That is fact so as I said befor we are just as bad
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Name calling doesn't get you anywhere, just like blowing up innocent people doesn't get you anywhere. Your comments about freedom are interesting coming from someone who lives in such a 2nd amendment supporting state. You should be doing all you can to legally protect the rights you have left. Bill C. will go down as one of the worst presidents in American history. Edit: And I can't believe I used my 100th post on this thread.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 4:42:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2002 5:54:17 PM EDT by zonan]
Originally Posted By tayous1: In the war to freedom to get back what is your there are no Innocent's to get what you want you have to do what you have to do. The Palestinians have no right to Israel the Jewish where there long before they where even around. I'm guessing more then in the American revolution we did kill the innocent! Are government still does it to this day. Don't think that the U.S. Government has NEVER killed any innocent at all because if you do think that then there is nothing more I can say to you. During the Civil war we killed innocent both north and south. Tourist know there is a civil war going on there. They are no forced to be there they go on there own. I'm not going to cry if I go to Israel and there is a bomb that goes off by where Christ held the last supper? No I know what is going on around there and I know what could happen to me if I do go. Tourist have to take reasonability for there own action's. Long live the IRA, and freedom to Ireland.
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If you can't see a difference between our revolution and what the palestinians and IRA are doing than I feel sorry for you. More importantly I feel sorry for anyone who should come in contact with you if you are currently pursuing one of your "righteous causes" that involve blowing up shopping malls and innocent busriders.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 4:47:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tayous1: THEN WE THE UNTIED STATES ARE TERRORIST.... What I think is scary is you mixing up being a freedom fighter with a terrorist. You must not be getting it thought we have done the same thing that these people we are calling terrorist have done and worse.
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No, we have absolutely not. We do not blow up street cafes and corner shops, randomly blowing up civilians and their belongings on purpose.
What would you call what Clinton did to get people off his back about getting a B? Well I think that would be called a terrorist attack. He had bombs dropped on towns so the news media would leave him alone now maybe you can see that not being a terrorist attack but I do.
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Sure, CLINTON did it, therefore it is OK.
What the IRA is doing is fighting for there land that is theres that the British government has taken over and held a dictatorship over not letting the people pick there own government the British are the terrorist not like they also don't kill innocents.
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Of course innocents die in battle. The point is, the US and other civilized nations do not target civilians.
The British also invaded Ireland and took there government over now you may think that is ok but I don't. They are doing the same thing we did in 1778. I you do not belive in that for your land and freedom there is no cost great enough then you might as well have stayed a slave. This is what America was built on that is why it is feared and so great.
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No, america was absolutely not built on blowing up innocents, at random, in populated areas. We won our freedom in pitched battle.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 5:43:01 PM EDT
[size=5][b]OMG!! OMG!!! R-O-T-F-L-M-A-O![/b][/size=5] Be wary of this line of thinking? I think that unless a group is deemed a threat to...DRUM ROLL PLEASE... [b]"the public's right to a full menu of dining and entertainment choices,"[/b] they will be left out of this particular investigation. HAHAHAHA!!!
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 6:11:17 PM EDT
Long live the IRA, and freedom to Ireland. [/quote] Be careful what you wish for. The IRA hope to unite all Ireland and rule it themselves. Their "free Ireland" would be an Orwellian nightmare. They are vicious, knee-capping, Marxist swine.
Link Posted: 3/3/2002 6:18:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/3/2002 6:23:31 PM EDT by Arquebus12]
Long live the IRA, and freedom to Ireland.
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Tayous, were you aware, freedom fighting/revenge aside, that the IRA are at the core Marxist-Leninists? Read your history. I sympathize with the plight, but Northern Ireland's stance is that they are in fact a part of the UK, and that they are, as a nation, aligned with the Church of England, a protestant denomination. Most of the terror tactics/guerilla warfare is not an Irish-English fight, but infighting between the two Irelands, with the North receiving English support. None of this is to be confused with parallels to the American Revolution or freedom fighting; it's Catholic versus Protestant, a Christian Jihad of sorts. (Edited to add: Ludwig, you beat me to it. Nicely put.)
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