Posted: 12/19/2009 12:29:05 AM EDT
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Hey peeps, need a little guidance on reloading .308. I'll cross-post this in Reloading forum; GD has the readership. I put 150 rounds downrange today with my new Rem 700 SPS in .308 (optics: Falcon Menace 4-14 x 40 FFPA), and shot both my handloads and some factory loaded stuff. I shot at 151 meters, and the best performance I had was with my handloads at just under 1.4 MOA. It was a little disappointing. I'm a pretty good shot, and have shot sub MOA even with irons a number of times, so I don't think it was a skill issue. I think it may be my components - I am using brass that was pulled from USGI stuff; it's NATO 7.62, and I wasn't particularly discerning about primers. I generally segregated the NATO 7.62 from the .308 but frankly wasn't that concerned about quality of brass. Bullets were 165 gr Hdy A-Max, 130 gr. Speer TNTs, and the factory-loaded stuff was all Fuddly Goodness @ 150 gr. SP. I should note that the factory Rem stuff shot the same as my handloads - not worse, which is a sign that your components are not right. Powders were AA2520, Varget, IMR4064, BL-(C) 2. I'm thinking I'll dump all the NATO cases and just go .308 (and all one brand) to keep things consistent-like. I noticed that virtually all groups had beautiful touching rounds and one crummy flyer that would spoil the goodness - yet another sign that something (case volume, maybe?) is running inconsistent. Ideas? |
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New Lapua brass or take the time to uniform the primer pockets and flash holes, trimmed to a consistent length. CCI BR-2 primer. 175 grain SMK. 44.5 grains of Varget or RL-15. This load works very well in most .308's. ****Check a few reloading manuals and work up to that powder weight following safe reloading practices**** |
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Quoted: New Lapua brass or take the time to uniform the primer pockets and flash holes, trimmed to a consistent length. CCI BR-2 primer. 175 grain SMK. 44.5 grains of Varget or RL-15. This load works very well in most .308's. ****Check a few reloading manuals and work up to that powder weight following safe reloading practices**** Thanks brother - well heeded advice. I uniform every primer pocket ('cause you never know whatcha gonna get with .mil demilled brass) and have always found the flash holes to be small. I will keep my SAMMI brass and will go with buying some Lapua and Sierra MKs per your suggestion. I have loads of Varget so this ought to work out well. That light stuff seems to shoot OK. My A-MAX stuff was about 40% less accurate, about 2.4 moa. |
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i'd be careful with load data posted by other people on the internet. i know the guy up above put his disclaimer in, but the hornady 7th edition manual lists a max charge of 43.2 grains of varget or 41.4 grains RL15 for a 175 grain projectile.
i've had pretty decent luck with 168 grain SMK's and Amax's, along with varget powder. Cases all trimmed to 2.000", necks chamfered inside and out, and then brushed with a bore brush. i prime with a hand priming tool, because it give a better sensitivity if my opinion. i also weigh every charge, and trickle the less 1/2 grain. no crimp, neck tension only. as noted varget and RL15 are both standard, go to powders for .308 -matt |
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Quoted: i'd be careful with load data posted by other people on the internet. i know the guy up above put his disclaimer in, but the hornady 7th edition manual lists a max charge of 43.2 grains of varget or 41.4 grains RL15 for a 175 grain projectile. i've had pretty decent luck with 168 grain SMK's and Amax's, along with varget powder. Cases all trimmed to 2.000", necks chamfered inside and out, and then brushed with a bore brush. i prime with a hand priming tool, because it give a better sensitivity if my opinion. i also weigh every charge, and trickle the less 1/2 grain. no crimp, neck tension only. as noted varget and RL15 are both standard, go to powders for .308 -matt I really appreciate your guidance. I have an RCBS electric dispenser and scale so by default I trickle every round. I haven't been turning necks, and my brass selection has just been pure crap. I will have to change this if I want to get this rifle shooting under an inch. Funny, I thought it was going to be easier than this.  My AR shoots 53 gr. Sierra hp flat base bullets well under an inch on 26.4 gr. Varget (compressed), and it's a carbine M4 barrel (Wilson chrome-lined) with a stock trigger. Yes, it took a while to find a load that would shoot less than 1.7 MOA out of that rifle, but now I take it for granted that I'll find what I am looking for quickly.<sigh> Guess that's not the case with reloading, isn't it? |
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Quoted:
Hey peeps, need a little guidance on reloading .308. I'll cross-post this in Reloading forum; GD has the readership. I put 150 rounds downrange today with my new Rem 700 SPS in .308 (optics: Falcon Menace 4-14 x 40 FFPA), and shot both my handloads and some factory loaded stuff. I shot at 151 meters, and the best performance I had was with my handloads at just under 1.4 MOA. It was a little disappointing. I'm a pretty good shot, and have shot sub MOA even with irons a number of times, so I don't think it was a skill issue. I think it may be my components - I am using brass that was pulled from USGI stuff; it's NATO 7.62, and I wasn't particularly discerning about primers. I generally segregated the NATO 7.62 from the .308 but frankly wasn't that concerned about quality of brass. Bullets were 165 gr Hdy A-Max, 130 gr. Speer TNTs, and the factory-loaded stuff was all Fuddly Goodness @ 150 gr. SP. I should note that the factory Rem stuff shot the same as my handloads - not worse, which is a sign that your components are not right. Powders were AA2520, Varget, IMR4064, BL-(C) 2. I'm thinking I'll dump all the NATO cases and just go .308 (and all one brand) to keep things consistent-like. I noticed that virtually all groups had beautiful touching rounds and one crummy flyer that would spoil the goodness - yet another sign that something (case volume, maybe?) is running inconsistent. Ideas? 150 meters = 164 yards How many sand bags did you use and how did you use them? Did you fire a fouling shot? What were the center to center measurements of the groups? Could you post pictures of the groups? Howcum this isn't in the reloading forum? |
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How was the wind?...Which did you shoot first..The factory or the hand loaded stuff..You could have had fouling or any number of reasons you were shooting crappy..
How many groups did you shoot before you noticed the group spreading? Were you shooting off of sandbags or a bipod?..Fatigue even? You were using three separate rounds with three different powders..What the hell did you think was going to happen?..So your rifle may not like one round as much as the other.. Sounds like a rookie shooter to me... 
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| I find that the case has not that much to with the accuracy. I wouldn't dump the cases just yet until you find which combination of factors lead to the improved accuracy. I find that powder/bullet is usually the case. Every rifle is a bit different even if comes off the assembly sequentially. |
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Uniform your brass and try 168gr SMK as mentioned above, mine shoots <0.25 MOA but it is in a takeoff PSS stock. Action bolts to 65 in/lbs? http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/postban/uglystick/US1.jpg Very nice 
OP I have the same rifle, the most accurate load I have found so far is the privi match, 168 gn I think. Bought a ton of it on sale when I got the rifle. Havent had a chance to try to work up loads. Good luck. |
| I use all Winchester brass, if you really want top of the line either Norma or Lapua with Norma being a little bit cheaper. I've always used plain Winchester large rifle primers, I've tried BR or match primers and saw no difference. YMMV. I'm no help with powder, when I got my .308 my Dad already had several loads to use and they are all WW 748, I've never used anything else. |
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Quoted:
Hey peeps, need a little guidance on reloading .308. I'll cross-post this in Reloading forum; GD has the readership. I put 150 rounds downrange today with my new Rem 700 SPS in .308 (optics: Falcon Menace 4-14 x 40 FFPA), and shot both my handloads and some factory loaded stuff. I shot at 151 meters, and the best performance I had was with my handloads at just under 1.4 MOA. It was a little disappointing. I'm a pretty good shot, and have shot sub MOA even with irons a number of times, so I don't think it was a skill issue. I think it may be my components - I am using brass that was pulled from USGI stuff; it's NATO 7.62, and I wasn't particularly discerning about primers. I generally segregated the NATO 7.62 from the .308 but frankly wasn't that concerned about quality of brass. Bullets were 165 gr Hdy A-Max, 130 gr. Speer TNTs, and the factory-loaded stuff was all Fuddly Goodness @ 150 gr. SP. I should note that the factory Rem stuff shot the same as my handloads - not worse, which is a sign that your components are not right. Powders were AA2520, Varget, IMR4064, BL-(C) 2. I'm thinking I'll dump all the NATO cases and just go .308 (and all one brand) to keep things consistent-like. I noticed that virtually all groups had beautiful touching rounds and one crummy flyer that would spoil the goodness - yet another sign that something (case volume, maybe?) is running inconsistent. Ideas? Were you allowing sufficient time for the barrel to cool between shots? If so, you may want to have your barrel looked at. But before you do that, get some 168 gr SMK's and load with IMR 4064. Alot of match shooters use that combo and has proved to be very accurate for me in several 308's. The A-MAX is a very long bullet for its weight and may not stabilize properly in your rifle. Good luck. |
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The trick to real accuacy is consistent loads. You need quality brass that has had the flash hole deburred and the primer pocket trued. All the cases need to be trimmed to the same length. You need match primers like Federal Gold Medal Match. You need a powder measure that throws very consistent charges. You need a case gauge to make sure your dies are set correctly.
After you are assembling perfect rounds you need perfect form. The more you muscle the gun on the bags the larger your groups will be. The gun should be on target without you touching it. Then you snuggle up to it and fire. You have to handle the gun the same way every time. It should always kick the same amount. Guns shoot to recoil. If you hold the gun firm one shot loose the next it will print to different places. Let it cool about 1 minute between shots. An SPS should shoot an honest inch or better if you have good loads and handle the gun right. |
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Quoted:
New Lapua brass or take the time to uniform the primer pockets and flash holes, trimmed to a consistent length. CCI BR-2 primer. 175 grain SMK. 44.5 grains of Varget or RL-15. This load works very well in most .308's. ****Check a few reloading manuals and work up to that powder weight following safe reloading practices**** Amen. I run 44.5 g of Varget pushing a 180g SMK set.010 off the lands , and is my 1000 yd load for both my 700 and Savage 12 . ......both in Lapua cases . (I weigh every charge) |
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Quoted:
The trick to real accuacy is consistent loads. You need quality brass that has had the flash hole deburred and the primer pocket trued. All the cases need to be trimmed to the same length. You need match primers like Federal Gold Medal Match. You need a powder measure that throws very consistent charges. You need a case gauge to make sure your dies are set correctly. After you are assembling perfect rounds you need perfect form. The more you muscle the gun on the bags the larger your groups will be. The gun should be on target without you touching it. Then you snuggle up to it and fire. You have to handle the gun the same way every time. It should always kick the same amount. Guns shoot to recoil. If you hold the gun firm one shot loose the next it will print to different places. Let it cool about 1 minute between shots. An SPS should shoot an honest inch or better if you have good loads and handle the gun right. I'm starting to realize this myself. ( in the red) I think maybe this is an understatement alot of folks don't know. |
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Quoted: one other thought, and i am not trying to insult you, but 1.4 MOA @ 150 yards is ~2.1". you aren't trying to shoot 1" groups @ 150 yards and calling that MOA are you? No, I'm not - and no offense taken. To the other poster that suggested I'm a no0B shooter, I'd respectfully disagree as I'm likely 20 years older than 80% of the people on this site and have been a gun owner since Ronald Reagan's second term. No offense taken there, either, because while I have been reloading since 2004 or so, it's been in fits and starts and I have had some challenges and narrowly avoided disaster on a couple of occasions. Yes, my reload methodology was more centered on volume than accuracy and I am lacking critical tools to get the job done correctly: good brass, a proper cutter (I'm using the Lee), the super-duper dies like Reddings (I'm using RCBS full-length), etc. I do use the RCBS Electronic Powder Dispenser with Scale, and thus trickle every handloaded (Rockchucker) round (this after numerous foibles on a Hornady Lock-n'-Load). I did shoot some older handloads I had and noticed primers taking a .25 second to ignite the rounds, several duds, etc. How fragile are primers? I had like 5 duds yesterday, including one that spilled unburned powder all over the action of the rifle and left a bullet in the rifling, causing me to dowel it out (semper paratus). Wind was 0 - 3 mph and variable, so not a big force to deal with. Temps never rose higher than 32 degrees F, and went down to 28 when the sun went behind the clouds. Was shooting at Lyons, which is about 7k altitude. Here're are my best groups from the workup loads I did yesterday, along with factory stuff: Winchester Super - X factory loads150 gr. power-point:  47 gr. Varget and Speer TNT  Best Factory Rem load (150 grain Core-Lokt), was shot at 103 yards, did not include first shot cold bore fouler in upper left corner.  IMR4064 48 gr. with 125 gr. Speer TNT:  10 shot group (DK Prof would be proud) 46.5 gr BL-(C) 2 with Hornady A-Max 165 grain (the ones with the funky red plastic tips): %202_46.5_gr.%20165_gr._hdy_amax.jpg) My favorite load of the day, 47 gr. AA2520 with 125 grain Speer TNT:  So I'm probably going to have to buy better brass, better trimming tools, a neck turner, etc. Additional info? Rest is a Caldwell light little three-legged thing; rear is rested on sandbags and a sand-filled leather "V." Rifle bounces all over the place; this could be a major contributor. When I did my .22lr accuracy post this summer, I was shooting entirely off sand front and rear and the rifle was moving nary a whit. I am careful to allow no stresses on the rifle; it's either right on target or I move bags until it is - I know that "forcing" gives you flyers. |
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i'd definitely check into a better rest. for grins, i played with autocad to determine some geometries graphically. to be off 1" @ 100 yards, the barrel has to be move way, WAY less than 0.5 degrees. it boggles my mind that good equipment in the hands of a good shooter is capable of basically one hole groups.
here is my best group to date. set-up is similar to yours. i shoot off of a single sand filled bull bag my mom made about 10 years ago. the flyer was my fault...not the rifle's or ammo. new i had pulled it before i came out of recoil. distance was 110 yards. 
on another note, what is that software you're using to measure the targets? it is way cool! -matt edi: sorry, that is 5 shots. the tear in the target was from wood fragments that the target was stapled to. |
Gunowner since Reagan's second term?
Ok young man..... 1) I agree with the comments on consistent being the key. 2) While your brass may not be the best, I try and use brass by lots, again consistent. 3) I see most here mentioning Sierra Match Kings, SMK's. HPBT. Something you didnt use. 4) My mentor started me in SMK 168's for under 600 & 175 for over 600. I tried Hornady and Berger and could not exceed my SMK results. My trial and error worked up M1A load is 41.5 gr IMR 4895 with 168 gr SMK, WIN brass, WIN LR primers. . Seems to be the pinnacle of perfection for me. ymmv ETA: In my load development I did 5 rounds of 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, grains and worked from there. Then 40.5, 41, 41.5, 42, 42.5. I kept working around until I found the sweet spot, which for me was 41.5. I noticed the larger the charges, the more the groups opened up. They would hold together until 42.5 or so, and then they opened up fast and wide. again, ymmv |
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Quoted:
Hey peeps, need a little guidance on reloading .308. I'll cross-post this in Reloading forum; GD has the readership. I put 150 rounds downrange today with my new Rem 700 SPS in .308 (optics: Falcon Menace 4-14 x 40 FFPA), and shot both my handloads and some factory loaded stuff. I shot at 151 meters, and the best performance I had was with my handloads at just under 1.4 MOA. It was a little disappointing. I'm a pretty good shot, and have shot sub MOA even with irons a number of times, so I don't think it was a skill issue. I think it may be my components - I am using brass that was pulled from USGI stuff; it's NATO 7.62, and I wasn't particularly discerning about primers. I generally segregated the NATO 7.62 from the .308 but frankly wasn't that concerned about quality of brass. Bullets were 165 gr Hdy A-Max, 130 gr. Speer TNTs, and the factory-loaded stuff was all Fuddly Goodness @ 150 gr. SP. I should note that the factory Rem stuff shot the same as my handloads - not worse, which is a sign that your components are not right. Powders were AA2520, Varget, IMR4064, BL-(C) 2. I'm thinking I'll dump all the NATO cases and just go .308 (and all one brand) to keep things consistent-like. I noticed that virtually all groups had beautiful touching rounds and one crummy flyer that would spoil the goodness - yet another sign that something (case volume, maybe?) is running inconsistent. Ideas? Tag for later, but don't mix your brass, they can have different volumes. 168 grain Serria match kings are kind of the standard for accuracy. There are factory load that are pretty good. http://www.snipercentral.com/matchammo.htm |
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Military (Lake City - "LC") brass is probably better than most commercial other than Lapua. It is thicker, so you be careful of the higher pressure for the same powder charge than you will get with commercial brass due to slightly smaller case volume. You'll get the most accurate results by sorting your brass so you are only shooting one type, then further sort them by weight and concentricity.
None of the bullets you listed are known for extreme accuracy. Finally, use match or benchrest primers, there is a lot of accuracy to be gained vs. standard primers. As far as what you are using for a rest, etc. I wouldn't get wrapped around the axle over that. Fundamental consistency is the important thing - make sure you are set up on your natural point of aim, the rifle is recoiling straight back, that you are holding tight and following through correctly, and that you aren't dragging wood. You should get good results off a bipod, a sandbag, or shooting off a pack - if you are shooting correctly. Make yourself a rear bag to put in your off hand under the toe of the stock and use it, one you can squeeze around to adjust your point of aim. Spend some time dry firing before your next outing and hold harder, sort your brass, go to a better bullet and primer, take your time throwing powder, and make sure your OAL and neck tension are consistent - you will be 1moa or under your next outing as long as you have a decent barrel on that thing. Disclaimer - I have yet to see a Remmy bolt gun that impressed me (other than the 700P 5R), the barrels are MAYBE about $30 and make better tomato stakes. ETA - I would probably try a session with some factory Federal Match and Black Hills Match - it's match brass and loaded with the Sierra 168. Some of the best ammo there is - it will tell you what your rifle is capable of. |
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You used the right powders, like others said use consistently prepared brass. Seat the bullets about 0.010" to 0.020" off the lands, this takes some fooling around to get set. You can't use one bullet from a lot to do this, it's more of the worst case bullet is .005" off the lands. The .308 shoots ok with land contact but the first time you open the bolt on an unfired round and spill a case full of BLC-2 into the trigger you will wish you used some jump.
Clean the barrel, both the powder fouling and especially the copper. I use Shooters Choice to clean the fouling and then Sweet's 7.62 for the copper. After the fouling is removed swab the bore with Sweet's, let it set for a few minutes and patch it with some more Sweets. Blue on the patch is copper, green is bronze brush material. After the copper is out, dry patch well and then use a CLP patch. Copper build up happens fast in a new barrel, accuracy can degrade after only 20 shots. New barrels can't shoot as many shots between cleaning as older more used barrels. Lee's Collet Die works great and produces excellent accuracy. Hornady's bullet seating die has a sliding gizmo to help the bullet go in without tilt. For the distance you are shooting at you don't need to weigh individual charges but you need to operate the powder measure consistently. Harmonics are very important, front bag position can change group shape and size. Rear bag position, not thumbing over the wrist and not cheeking the stock are very important especially with stocks like the HS Precision that ring like a bell during firing the round. Try the front bag under the scope bell, work forward and back with a clean barrel. Also, .308 likes a firm front bag but not a hard bag. Factory recoil lugs are not really flat on the back side, this causes flyers and so does not having bedding behind the recoil lug. Make sure the rear sling stud isn't touching the rear bag and the bottom of the pistol grip doesn't touch it during recoil either. Use talcum powder on the bags so they don't grip. Make sure the butt is on the shoulder or outboard of it the same for each shot and make sure the muscle tension is the same too. Make sure there is no parallax in the scope. Increase the trigger pressure steadily. Feel and judge the wind. Keep us informed about your progress. ETA: 168 and 175 Match Kings and the Hornady equivalent work great. |
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Headstamp sort and then weight sort your brass.
Trim to the ten-thousandth. Uniform primer pocket. Bin by sort. Mark by shot number. Get your seat and crimp "right." (There's whole articles written about this) Buy a crono. Look for nice uniform velocity. Have fun. |
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Man, you guys impress the hell out of me. I have got to start hand loading. It looks like both an interesting and rewarding hobby. Unfortunately, I have no idea where to begin. Maybe with .45 ACP and .30-06 since both are so expensive these days. I will give you the direction I was given. 1) Save all your brass. If you have a pile of brass thats one less thing you have to buy. 2) Go with a supplier known to have knowledgeable staff. Its like Ford/Chevy sometimes, but as you see here there is a lot in common no matter what to success. 3) I was guided to the Lee Anniversary kit. Its almost a complete ready to go setup. Some guys swear by Lee, some swear at it. I had good luck, ymmv. Add dies and materials and you are rolling along. 4) Get a good reloading manual. Use it! No distractions or bs. Its a serious hobby but well worth the dedication. You get out what you put in. I love this part of my hobby as much as any part. 5) If those two calibers are what you shoot most of, thats a great place to start. Neither are cheap when bought at the store. Reloading will not save you money, it will only allow you to shoot more ammo of a better quality. I have streamlines calibers, but I have dies and preps for anything I own. 6) Primers are hard to come by these days. Buy them when you can. Again Ford/Chevy on manufacturers. Pills (bullet components) are next, again Ford/Chevy. 7) Watch the ads on the board at your club/range/EE. There are deals to be had. Know the prices. Go to the reloading forum. There is so much knowledge there it will blow your mind. Good luck! |
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308Win Lapua brass 44.5gr Varget CCI BR-2 primers 175 Berger VLD 200yd group from Rem 700 VS 308Win http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u141/will6101/DSCN03360001-1-1.jpg damn. what optic are you using? i wanna be like you when i grow up! |
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308Win Lapua brass 44.5gr Varget CCI BR-2 primers 175 Berger VLD 200yd group from Rem 700 VS 308Win http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u141/will6101/DSCN03360001-1-1.jpg This is a very good formula, right here. I have had better luck in my lightweight Rem. Ti .308 with R-15 & V V N-540, but rifles vary in what they prefer. For accuracy, consistant brass, methods, etc. are paramount, as has been stated many times above. I don't see where the rifle has been "tweaked".. I personally will not use a rifle that has not been properly bedded to the stock & trigger professionally adjusted to be crisp and (SAFELY) adjusted to a reasonably light weight. (This varies by intended use and shooter experience level!) If the rifle is not consistant, you can & WILL chase your tail reloading & waste many dollars in components and much time. It sounds like you have been doing a lot of shooting. Double check your scope bases, mounts & rings, action screws. etc. & seriously consider a bedding and trigger job. This really helps make the platform consistant & lets you evaluate loads more accurately, IMO. Good Luck & be SAFE! eta-Your cold bore shot flyer being off by so much makes me nearly certain of a bedding, action screw torque, scope mount, scope issue, with bedding or action screw torque being very likely, IMO. |
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Team, lots of really, really great help here. Thanks. Makes ARFCOM a joy to read! I will put in place some procedural fixes, load up some new rounds on new brass, and see if a change of technique and approach will bring my 150m groups down to "respectable." My goal is to get a reliable 5-shot group under 1.0 MOA - if I can do this, I will have considered my job "complete," then I'll load a bunch of ammo and call it "good." I have another boltie to get dialed in, and would like to get that job done - it's a 6mm Remington K98k re-stocked in original config (a Russian capture gun that a great gunsmith worked over at terrific expense). |