Posted: 10/26/2009 9:40:31 AM EDT
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So my 13 y/o asked for one of those BP kit guns for Christmas. Who the hell am I to say 'no'? I don't know anything about them. He told me they have them at Academy and Cabela's. I suppose I need something fairly simple to assemble, fairly cheap, and can be shot a few times a year without going Death Star in my kid's face. Recommendations? |
| A nice lesson in mechanics and craftsmanship. I remember lusting after those, but my father short circuited the process by buying me a real .22 autolater instead (Rem 552)... I thought I'd have better odds on the Kit than anything else, but was nicely suprised by what was under the tree... This was cira '80... |
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Quoted: If its one of the more simple "kit guns", then it would need some finish work on the stock and metal pieces. But it would be a great buy, and something you and your son could work on together. That's what I'm interested in but I don't know anything about the shootability/quality of these things. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
If its one of the more simple "kit guns", then it would need some finish work on the stock and metal pieces. But it would be a great buy, and something you and your son could work on together. That's what I'm interested in but I don't know anything about the shootability/quality of these things. There is a good bit of fit and finish to be done. |
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Quoted: A nice lesson in mechanics and craftsmanship. I remember lusting after those, but my father short circuited the process by buying me a real .22 autolater instead (Rem 552)... I thought I'd have better odds on the Kit than anything else, but was nicely suprised by what was under the tree... This was cira '80... He's just wanting something different, a project of sorts. Believe me, he isn't suffering: |
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Get a percussion rifle. Anything under .45 is small game. I would only recommend a .45 for deer with a conical so make sure it is 1:48" rifling or faster. Anything under is fine with patched ball for squirrel/rabbit Shotguns are fun but slow to load. Pyrodex is best with Uncle Mikes Hot Shot nipples. Since the bore and breech will be wet with oil, snap a few caps without powder (CCI are non-corrosive) to clear the breech. Oil soaked powder doesn't ignite easily. The .50 caliber Hawken from Cabela's looks nice. There will be minor fitting necessary. The barrel will need draw filing to preserve the corners of the octagon. Hold barrel in a padded vise and work slowly, drawing the file with light pressure, level. Then switch to 180 SiC wet or dry. Work up to 240 grit, then 400 and 600. Cold blue isn't too durable, I recommend the browning solutions for the barrel. Wood needs to be mated to the brass. Most are inletted, the wood just needs to be brought down to the metal. Brass needs polishing, use the same grit as for the barrel. The lock and barrel should be fully inletted, just level the wood around it as for the brass. For the patch box, make sure to epoxy coat the exposed wood on the inside to keep oils from soaking it. Some patch lubes will corrode brass. |
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I'm a traditionalist when it comes to black powder.
Flintlock is the first and only thing I've built/shot/shoot. I'd have to do some research on current low end kits available. Pretty sure a Hawken style kit is available made by Lyman. (Yes Hawken was originally flintlock). Nipples belong on a woman not a man's rifle. A long rifle would be better but may be a bit much for a beginner to tackle. A half stock Hawken style would be an easier build. I won't sugar coat it. Kits take a lot of work and patience to make look nice. There will be mistakes...lots of 'em. There are some good videos out there showing how to do it right. I personally have Homer Dangler's video set, but they are geared specifically toward the Penn. Longrifle. You need a STURDY work bench. Not that many specialty tools, other than standard woodworking tools. There are a couple jigs/fixtures to be made that really make things easier and more precise. As long as you buy from a place like Cabelas or similar, they are gonna have a product that won't just "blow up in your face" as long as you don't do something stupid. There is really no reason to load more than the number of grains of powder equal to caliber, unless you are hunting deer or better. And then you should (as usual) work up slowly looking for signs of too much powder (excessive fowling, excessive unburned pwder out the bbl, etc) not to mention finding the load that the rifle prefers. Go to the NMLRA site. There is lots of info there. National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association. Trackofthewolf.com has a nice selection of kits, but most are probably a little more than a first time builder needs to spend. Also... Get real black powder. The smell, taste, sound and smoke are part of the experience. I can't stand modern immitations. Keith was right, .45 min for deer but I've not had trouble with a round ball. Treat it like a .357 pistol as far as distance and importence of shot placement..50 is a good all around caliber. You don't have to load it hot to enjoy or to get the job done. My 10 year old son shoots a scaled down 1790s Lancaster pattern long rifle in .50 with no problems. DON'T EVER LOAD FROM A FLASK. DON'T LOAD WITHOUT BLOWING DOWN THE BBL FIRST (AFTER A PREVIOUS SHOT) Get a ball puller BEFORE you go to the range so when you get a ball stuck half way down, you don't just try to shoot it out. |
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Quoted: Get a percussion rifle. Anything under .45 is small game. I would only recommend a .45 for deer with a conical so make sure it is 1:48" rifling or faster. Anything under is fine with patched ball for squirrel/rabbit Shotguns are fun but slow to load. Pyrodex is best with Uncle Mikes Hot Shot nipples. Since the bore and breech will be wet with oil, snap a few caps without powder (CCI are non-corrosive) to clear the breech. Oil soaked powder doesn't ignite easily. The .50 caliber Hawken from Cabela's looks nice. There will be minor fitting necessary. The barrel will need draw filing to preserve the corners of the octagon. Hold barrel in a padded vise and work slowly, drawing the file with light pressure, level. Then switch to 180 SiC wet or dry. Work up to 240 grit, then 400 and 600. Cold blue isn't too durable, I recommend the browning solutions for the barrel. Wood needs to be mated to the brass. Most are inletted, the wood just needs to be brought down to the metal. Brass needs polishing, use the same grit as for the barrel. The lock and barrel should be fully inletted, just level the wood around it as for the brass. For the patch box, make sure to epoxy coat the exposed wood on the inside to keep oils from soaking it. Some patch lubes will corrode brass. Thanks for the advice. I just looked at a "Traditions" at Academy Sports. It was a .50 cal percussion. $240 seemed kind of steep. I'll look into the Hawken. |
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Traditions is a Hawken "style". Defined by the half stock, the key to keep the bbl in the stock, the curly trigger guard, shorter/heavier bbl and very hooked butt.
$240 is about as cheap as you're going to find a kit from a store. I saw one go on gunbroker for 199. I've got two parts sets (not really kits per se but rather collections of enough parts to build a rifle) Each set is over $800. Sorry to be bearer of not-so-good news but $200-250 is cheaper that I thought you could get one for, before I started looking. If he's not in a great hurry, you may find a deal on GB or the like. Or if you're not too far from Friendship Indian (I forget your 10-20) you could wait for the spring national shoot there and maybe get a deal. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Get a percussion rifle. Anything under .45 is small game. I would only recommend a .45 for deer with a conical so make sure it is 1:48" rifling or faster. Anything under is fine with patched ball for squirrel/rabbit Shotguns are fun but slow to load. Pyrodex is best with Uncle Mikes Hot Shot nipples. Since the bore and breech will be wet with oil, snap a few caps without powder (CCI are non-corrosive) to clear the breech. Oil soaked powder doesn't ignite easily. The .50 caliber Hawken from Cabela's looks nice. There will be minor fitting necessary. The barrel will need draw filing to preserve the corners of the octagon. Hold barrel in a padded vise and work slowly, drawing the file with light pressure, level. Then switch to 180 SiC wet or dry. Work up to 240 grit, then 400 and 600. Cold blue isn't too durable, I recommend the browning solutions for the barrel. Wood needs to be mated to the brass. Most are inletted, the wood just needs to be brought down to the metal. Brass needs polishing, use the same grit as for the barrel. The lock and barrel should be fully inletted, just level the wood around it as for the brass. For the patch box, make sure to epoxy coat the exposed wood on the inside to keep oils from soaking it. Some patch lubes will corrode brass. Thanks for the advice. I just looked at a "Traditions" at Academy Sports. It was a .50 cal percussion. $240 seemed kind of steep. I'll look into the Hawken. this is something you dont want to skimp on... theres some bad stuff floating around about the chinese stuff.. here, try this http://www.dixiegunworks.com/default.php?cPath=22_162_192 |
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Cheaper kits have inferior inletting. You will need lots of careful chiseling to correct. Flintlocks are more traditional BUT they can be a bit much for a teen boy to adjust the flint. Too much bite and they break, not enough and you get spotty ignition. There is much more delay in ignition and the flash in the pan WILL disturb your aim until you get over it. In Texas, percussion is allowed. Sure, you have to buy caps but you don't need priming powder. And you can use some BP substitutes. Pyrodex makes shooting fun, unless you use Lee REAL bullets which allow for nearly unlimited shooting without cleaning every 5 shots. It forms scrapers when loaded, cleaning the barrel. Just bring a rubber mallet, start the lubed bullet and a single tap gets it flush. Definitely get a synthetic ramrod. The wood ones like to break and should only be used for field use. Never grab more than 6" of ramrod when seating bullets. There are much better cleaning agents today. If you use hot soapy water, remove the barrel from the stock. Keep the barrel wet with a good oil in storage. |
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Why are the more "modern" appearing BP guns cheaper than these kits? ie: http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_-1_10001_82259?cm_mmc=froogle-_-425-10-1-_––1-_-38-886-188-45&hvarAID=froogle&mr:trackingCode=EC7C14AB-E881-DE11-B712-001422107090&mr:referralID=NA |
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Quoted:
Cheaper kits have inferior inletting. You will need lots of careful chiseling to correct. Flintlocks are more traditional BUT they can be a bit much for a teen boy to adjust the flint. Too much bite and they break, not enough and you get spotty ignition. There is much more delay in ignition and the flash in the pan WILL disturb your aim until you get over it. In Texas, percussion is allowed. Sure, you have to buy caps but you don't need priming powder. And you can use some BP substitutes. Pyrodex makes shooting fun, unless you use Lee REAL bullets which allow for nearly unlimited shooting without cleaning every 5 shots. It forms scrapers when loaded, cleaning the barrel. Just bring a rubber mallet, start the lubed bullet and a single tap gets it flush. Definitely get a synthetic ramrod. The wood ones like to break and should only be used for field use. Never grab more than 6" of ramrod when seating bullets. There are much better cleaning agents today. If you use hot soapy water, remove the barrel from the stock. Keep the barrel wet with a good oil in storage. Muhahahhaa, Keith, I knew someone would bring this up. They are slower for most who don't understand them. A properly built flinter will shoot just as fast as a caplock, (barring the modern inlines, of course). Touch hole level with pan. Powder level LOWER than touch hole. Sharp english flint and hard frizzen, She'll shoot just as fast. Actually faster than most caplocks cause the spark has to make a turn in a caplock(except underhammers). You are correct that setting up a flintlock is more to learn than a caplock, but the boy looked pretty accomplished to me. If you're gonna learn enough to safely shoot BP, what's a little more knowledge to make the experience that much better (imho). Problem with bad inletting on the kits is usually too much wood removed rather than the opposite (better) condition. I'd say don't worry about quality of the kit too much. The boy will thnk it's great no matter what. He will be able to learn some technique and may spark a life long love affair with the smell of burnt sulpher and black fingers and lips where the powder horn plug is pulled during loading. The chinese would have to be using something worse that wraught iron to be really dangerous with realistic powder levels. My suspision on any problems is some idiot trying to load 120 grains in a .50 to go shoot bambi at 400 yards with a minnie' ball. |
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I built this T/C Hawken .50cal from a kit a few years ago. I don't know it T/C still sells kits, this one was bought in the early eighties, but I was impressed with the quality of the parts that came with this rifle. I has some small parts missing from the kit since it had been moved around for twenty years or so, but one call to T/C and they were in the mail free of charge. ETA-Green Mountain makes replacement barrels for these in several different calibers including .32 which would be great for squirrel.   |