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Posted: 3/17/2001 12:32:51 PM EDT
The current rage is for Police SWAT teams to buy $5000 super sniper rifles. I heard last year the longest shot a police sniper took was 75 yards. [sniper] A $5000 police sniper rifle sounds like more overkill than Diallo. [uzi]
Link Posted: 3/17/2001 12:41:17 PM EDT
The money probably came from a grant or stop DWI funding,it is nice to know they arent using 100 dollar Mosin Nagants!
Link Posted: 3/17/2001 12:42:32 PM EDT
I agree with you about the price and yes the yardage is true. A couple of us guys on the dept's team are looking at the Remington 700 in .308 scoped with a Leupold. The ammo we are checking out is the Hornaday TAP ammo. With all the money saved from the $5000 you sure could buy other necessary equipment along with training.
Link Posted: 3/17/2001 1:05:47 PM EDT
I have heard that an increasing number of police departments are buying Barrett .50bmg's.
Link Posted: 3/17/2001 1:56:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/17/2001 3:16:56 PM EDT
sniper is a term overused. It is the ninja mystic. They do have a job and it is to be a marksman! However, abilities shooting in weather, wind, awareness of surroundings, ability to communicate are important skills to master.
Link Posted: 3/17/2001 3:19:36 PM EDT
Most departments have trouble shelling out the money for a few Remington 700's, and god forbid you actually want staff to pay for a decent scope! Yeah, some departments buy the spendy gear, but they are by far in the minority.
Link Posted: 3/17/2001 4:12:39 PM EDT
Isn't the LE application of precision rifleman usually called a [b]Counter-Sniper[/b]?
Link Posted: 3/17/2001 4:34:31 PM EDT
Having supervised a tactical unit for 10 years, it was always my opinion that scout/marksman was a more appropriate title.
Link Posted: 3/17/2001 9:56:10 PM EDT
No, counter-sniper is not an appropriate term. Counter-sniper means someone who engages snipers, not a police marksman whose job is mostly to gather intelligence. Many police marksman schools offer some training in dealing with wackos with scoped rifles (what the media call 'snipers'), but the term itself is misleading. It implies that all they engage are criminals like Charles Whitman, when actually those kinds of cases are a very, very small part of what police marksmen do. I agree w/rkb3119, scout/marksman is a very good title.
Link Posted: 3/17/2001 10:15:03 PM EDT
As far as the longest shot, yes, it is usually under 100 yards. However, there have been times marksmen have had to take a shot at 200 yards +, and unlike military snipers that usually has to be a head shot. Yeah, there's a world of difference between military and police snipers. Military snipers have to deal with field conditions and frequently make much longer shots. However, those shots are usually non-critical. That means, if they miss, it's not a big deal. They are trained to shoot center of mass, and don't have to worry about a hostage getting killed if they mess up the shot. I've talked to one famous military sniper (I'm not going to use his name because I haven't asked his permission to) who said that he missed more than he hit, and if he did miss it wasn't a big deal. There just wasn't that much riding on the shot. If he hit, one less enemy soldier. If he missed, he probably scared the piss out of the guy and that was okay, too. Police marksmen, however, have to train for an instantly-incapacitating head shot on someone who may be behind glass, moving, or hiding behind a hostage, at distances generally out to 100 yards. If they miss or don't get a good hit, someone else is probably going to die. And then guess who gets sued? It's a whole different ballgame than military sniping, but not necessarily an easier one. Garand Shooter, you're not necessarily correct. You usually do have to stalk in to some degree, especially on a hostage-taker. More and more bad guys who create SWAT callouts have rifles and are entirely capable of firing back, or firing first if they see you moving into position. Sometimes they have friends who will be looking for you after you take out their buddy. Shooting mats? Not very likely, it's another thing to carry. SS109, I'd like to have some of those $5000 super-sniper rifles. Who's buying them? Every team I've worked with has plain old Remington 700 PSS's with Leupold scopes. Some even have to settle for Savage rifles or worse. Buzzard, stay away from the Leupold 3.5-10X police scope Remington puts on their police packages- the light transmission is horrible. Spend the extra money for the Vari-X III M1 with mil-dots, it's worth every penny. Also stay away from 700's with Remington's detachable magazine system, it's horrible. Steyr SBS tacticals are a better bet for about the same money.
Link Posted: 3/18/2001 12:07:39 PM EDT
If I or anyone I know or love is taken hostage by someone, and a police marksman must shoot to save a life, I sure would like them to have a $5000 rife and whatever they need to make damn sure they hit the bad guy right the first time. You hear me Orlando?
Link Posted: 3/28/2001 9:21:08 PM EDT
i'm not le but if one of your loved ones was being held by a "bad guy" i'm sure you would want his rifle to shoot 1/2moa instead of 1moa. some things are worth the price, if it was'nt we'd all be shooting mini's.
Link Posted: 3/28/2001 9:33:15 PM EDT
I remember seeing some LASD snipers pat themselves on the back for shooting on e inch groups at 100 yards with a PSS. I also rememberr doing this when I was fourteen with an AR. The actual lack of skill demonstrated by many LE "marksmen" is frightening. These guys SHOULD have the best gear and training. 100yard one inch groups should be qaulifyers to receive the training, not the end result of.
Link Posted: 3/28/2001 9:57:09 PM EDT
SNIPERS MY ASS, last year in the Orland area a so-called SWAT SNIPER murdered the hostage at sling shot distance. More and more of the people these days look at SWAT as just crazed killer, wannabees! BAN THE SWAT GESTAPO!
Link Posted: 3/28/2001 9:59:57 PM EDT
SWAT = Sit Wait And Talk
Link Posted: 3/28/2001 10:44:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand Shooter: Is it just me, or is anyone else bothered by the use of the term "sniper" in regards to these LE guys. When I think of a sniper I think of someone that is skiled in the art of camoflauge, the stalk, and taking 800-1000 meter shots, then eveding enemy detection while moving back. The term "marksman" is much more appropriate for someone who takes no more than a 300 meter shot and usually lays down a shooting mat, has no one capable of returning fire in mnay cases, and doesn't have to evade enemy detection after the shots are fired. I know many military snipers and police marksman, and there is a world of differnce in the level of skills possesed by the 2. just my .02
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A big AMEN Garand Shooter, it boils my blood to the same degree as the term "sniper rifle".
Link Posted: 3/28/2001 10:46:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By andreusan: SNIPERS MY ASS, last year in the Orland area a so-called SWAT SNIPER murdered the hostage at sling shot distance. More and more of the people these days look at SWAT as just crazed killer, wannabees! BAN THE SWAT GESTAPO!
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And blamed his spotter to boot!
Link Posted: 3/28/2001 10:58:10 PM EDT
I remember watching the Columbine debacle, the SWAT teams cowered as the wounded bled to death and the killing went on and on and on.
Link Posted: 3/28/2001 11:01:11 PM EDT
How about calling them "Ninja Trained Elite Tactical Sniper Squad"?...LOL During their slow periods they can work mall security detail. Actually, if I had a loved one being held hostige I would rather have the state let me have a CCW than having to rely on them to save them. After all, why should they have all the fun?? sgtar15
Link Posted: 3/28/2001 11:17:34 PM EDT
I read about a interesting new concept in police sniper rifles. Some companies have begun to develop bolt action sniper rifles chambered for 12 ga. slugs because they can go through glass with less change in flight path, and doudle as a pass key. There is a big article about this in "The Gun Digest Book of Assault Weapons, 5th Edition. I don't know how practical it is, but it sounds more apropriate for the police "sniper" role. Kyle
Link Posted: 3/28/2001 11:26:03 PM EDT
Having seen a local PD SWAT team work out at a local range, I also would not want to rely on them. The slug idea seems sound, as I understand very few shots are over 100 yds. Maybe the spotter could lug it, while the MM schleps the .308 bolt gun, and swap if the occasion calls for it.
Link Posted: 3/28/2001 11:55:55 PM EDT
What's wrong with a one inch 100 yd group fired by a police sniper. That would be the Holy Grail for the sniper on my local SWAT. Why he was so proud of his 2.5 inch 100 yd group that was shot off a full bench rest that he even let it be published in the largest local paper. Boy I guess I really have something to be worried about if I ever have to go to war against Marksmen like him. I am such a poor shot that I can only shoot 1/2 to 3/4 inch 100 yd groups with my Colt AR-15 with a Bushmaster V-Match upper loaded with Win 3131A. Think I should save my life and give up all my guns before I have to go up against such a deadly sniper.
Link Posted: 3/29/2001 12:14:04 AM EDT
"Sniper_762x51", You're not going to "war" with anyone. If you have to face that 2.5 X 100 shooter in an armed confrontation, you better shoot him in the back as he gets out of his car because a single round with that hits within 1.25 inches of its aiming point in the head or chest will kill you just a dead as one that hits within a half inch if the proper ammunition is used. One half to 3/4 inch at 100 yards with Q3131A? I doubt it. On a good day that ammunition is good for 1 to 1.5 MOA.
Link Posted: 3/29/2001 12:22:37 AM EDT
Hmmm.... lots of anger and perhaps jealousy out there gentlemen? Many good points made and some.. well shall we say... hot air... I am a former military sniper (USMC) and have served as a Law Enforcement sniper and LE firearms instructor (just a bit of background). While it is true that most LE sniper/counter sniper situations occur under 100 yds - one better well be able to place a shot at greater distance for that one exception that may present itself. While military snipers usually hunt for a target rich environment, a LE sniper (marksman if it makes you feel better) is normally faced with a bad guy(s) that has chosen to make him(her)self a target and may need to be neutralized if the situation warrants such. There are rare circumstances where an LE sniper will fill the role of counter sniper due to the fact that most "snipers" who shoot innocents don't hang around long enough for a counter sniper to position themself. One exception to that rule was Charles Whitman (if you don't know this name - you haven't done your homework in this subject) who had the highest ground available and there was no place for a counter sniper to "set up" for a shot. It took the bravery of one police officer and a civilian to bring Whitman's life to an end. Whether you like the term "police sniper" or not - this individual has the same responsibility in the tactical arena as the military sniper has - to put the shot where it needs to go - the first time. If you are the unfortunate soul that has been taken hostage and has a shotgun or handgun held to your head and a LE marksman can save your life with one well placed shot - you will happily refer to that person as "sniper", "hero", and "friend" from that day forward. While you are arguing about what to call them, there are many dedicated officers out there who spend extra time and effort to hone a very exacting craft and train against the day when they will reluctantly make the decision to complete the light press of the trigger and if they have done all correctly - bring an end to a serious threat and save life. How about cutting them some slack and showing a little respect and appreciation for their service? [sniper] The Sniper
Link Posted: 3/29/2001 12:59:57 AM EDT
many le agencies send their finest to camp pery every year. i shoot dcm and have had them as competitors. i havent been impressed. the problem i have with the high dollar rifle is that for about $1000 and 4k in training the le agency would do a lot better. a 500 dollar rem700varmit and a good 3x9 should cost about a grand. 4 grand in training would help in almost every concievable situation. when swat is added to the situation i have a serious problem. the swat attitude is that of the millitary and does not belong in le practice. swat is a serious bunch of wantabees! and i have not seen a swat team worth its weight in salt. one member mentioned columbine.. this i agree is classic swat...when the dust has settled we will go in and look good for the photo op. look at the last few school shootings, same stuff different day. it has been a long time since a real swat team has pulled a good mision on a hostile situation. most of the stuff done is no nock drug busts and such. a le agency would be much better served with good all around training for all officers than spending a lot of money on a bunch of glory boys that regard their own skin more than that of those that are paying for the training...imho
Link Posted: 3/29/2001 2:28:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/29/2001 6:20:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sparky315: As far as the longest shot, yes, it is usually under 100 yards. However, there have been times marksmen have had to take a shot at 200 yards +, and unlike military snipers that usually has to be a head shot. Yeah, there's a world of difference between military and police snipers. Military snipers have to deal with field conditions and frequently make much longer shots. However, those shots are usually non-critical. That means, if they miss, it's not a big deal. They are trained to shoot center of mass, and don't have to worry about a hostage getting killed if they mess up the shot. I've talked to one famous military sniper (I'm not going to use his name because I haven't asked his permission to) who said that he missed more than he hit, and if he did miss it wasn't a big deal. There just wasn't that much riding on the shot. If he hit, one less enemy soldier. If he missed, he probably scared the piss out of the guy and that was okay, too. Police marksmen, however, have to train for an instantly-incapacitating head shot on someone who may be behind glass, moving, or hiding behind a hostage, at distances generally out to 100 yards. If they miss or don't get a good hit, someone else is probably going to die. And then guess who gets sued? It's a whole different ballgame than military sniping, but not necessarily an easier one.
A SEAL sniper is trained 1 shot 1 kill. We were trained in not only open field manuvers but also anti-terrorist/hostage situations. And contrary to pop belief when a hostile has a gun to a victoms head a perfectly placed head shot will in turn cause the targets mussels to contract putting a bullet in the brain of the very person your trying to save. [rail]
Link Posted: 3/29/2001 11:32:15 AM EDT
I will state it again: I am proud to live in a country where good men and women have shed blood to secure even a total idiots right to free speech. ^5 Sniper Hunter out...
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