[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Encrypted LE Frequencies (Page 1 of 9)
Posted: 7/2/2009 11:32:44 PM EDT
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What is everyone's opinion on LE (and FD's/EMS/Gov't) moving to digitally encrypted 800 mhz frequencies?
They will be unable to be monitored by anyone who does not have a signed letter allowing them to have these frequencies unlocked. So basically only officers will be able to listen. No more media or vigilantes. I see good, but I also see the possibility for abuse. |
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Signed letter? Huh? CT state police, for one, are digitally encrypted, but anyone with a scanner with a certain APCO card in it can hear them L&C. It's just digital then. Not encrypted. Some are just going to the 800 mhz digital. Most are having them encrypted. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Signed letter? Huh? CT state police, for one, are digitally encrypted, but anyone with a scanner with a certain APCO card in it can hear them L&C. It's just digital then. Not encrypted. Some are just going to the 800 mhz digital. Most are having them encrypted. Ours are encrypted. |
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Signed letter? Huh? CT state police, for one, are digitally encrypted, but anyone with a scanner with a certain APCO card in it can hear them L&C. It's just digital then. Not encrypted. Some are just going to the 800 mhz digital. Most are having them encrypted. Ours are encrypted. Yep. Ours is to...I'm working dispatch right now. We are able to see exactly who is transmitting and where they are transmitting from. There are lots of people who aren't emergency services but listen to scanners for various reasons. They won't be able to with this new system. |
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http://www.motorola.com/staticfiles/Business/Product%20Lines/ASTRO%2025%20Network/Encryption/Key%20Variable%20Loader%203000%20Plus/Key%20Variable%20Loader%203000%20Plus/_Images/Static%20Files/B2B_Product_Key_Variable_Loader__MD_US-EN.jpg There can only be so many key combinations...  If you know what the keys even are. Even if it's 128 bit encryption (which I'm sure it's much higher) that's a shitload of combinations of 0 and 1. 2^128, I believe? |
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Signed letter? Huh? CT state police, for one, are digitally encrypted, but anyone with a scanner with a certain APCO card in it can hear them L&C. It's just digital then. Not encrypted. Some are just going to the 800 mhz digital. Most are having them encrypted. Ours are encrypted. Yep. Ours is to...I'm working dispatch right now. We are able to see exactly who is transmitting and where they are transmitting from. There are lots of people who aren't emergency services but listen to scanners for various reasons. They won't be able to with this new system. Most larger agencies have encrypted channels before the 800Mhz, now everything will be. And we won't have to change channels to talk on it. If they wanted to an agnecy could mandate that all traffic be on a secure channel. |
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Quoted: Quoted: http://www.motorola.com/staticfiles/Business/Product%20Lines/ASTRO%2025%20Network/Encryption/Key%20Variable%20Loader%203000%20Plus/Key%20Variable%20Loader%203000%20Plus/_Images/Static%20Files/B2B_Product_Key_Variable_Loader__MD_US-EN.jpg There can only be so many key combinations... If you know what the keys even are. Even if it's 128 bit encryption (which I'm sure it's much higher) that's a shitload of combinations of 0 and 1. 2^128, I believe? Start counting from zero and work your way up. You have nothing but time, and time is on your side. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqLzpcV3OD8 |
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There is no feasible way to crack the digitally-encrypted radio comms now being fielded (you could literally take every computer in the world, cluster them all together, and set them to work on brute-forcing the crypto key, and it would literally take all of recorded history to recover a single key)
Even if you got a radio, and got the key put in on-the-sly, they have OTAR (over-the-air-rekeying), which allows them to change crypto keys on-the-fly. This would render your radio unusable. Most of the digital systems also tag individual radios with a unique ID number, so you know who is on the system, and whose radio it is. If a strange radio shows up on the system, they can send a command to remotely kill or stun your radio. The era of scanners is quickly coming to an end. |
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http://www.motorola.com/staticfiles/Business/Product%20Lines/ASTRO%2025%20Network/Encryption/Key%20Variable%20Loader%203000%20Plus/Key%20Variable%20Loader%203000%20Plus/_Images/Static%20Files/B2B_Product_Key_Variable_Loader__MD_US-EN.jpg There can only be so many key combinations... If you know what the keys even are. Even if it's 128 bit encryption (which I'm sure it's much higher) that's a shitload of combinations of 0 and 1. 2^128, I believe? Start counting from zero and work your way up. You have nothing but time, and time is on your side. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqLzpcV3OD8 I've seen it. Not going to click. Yes, I know the is small. |
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There is no feasible way to crack the digitally-encrypted radio comms now being fielded (you could literally take every computer in the world, cluster them all together, and set them to work on brute-forcing the crypto key, and it would literally take all of recorded history to recover a single key) Even if you got a radio, and got the key put in on-the-sly, they have OTAR (over-the-air-rekeying), which allows them to change crypto keys on-the-fly. This would render your radio unusable. Most of the digital systems also tag individual radios with a unique ID number, so you know who is on the system, and whose radio it is. If a strange radio shows up on the system, they can send a command to remotely kill or stun your radio. The era of scanners is quickly coming to an end. They always seem to build a better mousetrap though. Someone will figure out how to break it. |
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There is no feasible way to crack the digitally-encrypted radio comms now being fielded (you could literally take every computer in the world, cluster them all together, and set them to work on brute-forcing the crypto key, and it would literally take all of recorded history to recover a single key) Even if you got a radio, and got the key put in on-the-sly, they have OTAR (over-the-air-rekeying), which allows them to change crypto keys on-the-fly. This would render your radio unusable. Most of the digital systems also tag individual radios with a unique ID number, so you know who is on the system, and whose radio it is. If a strange radio shows up on the system, they can send a command to remotely kill or stun your radio. The era of scanners is quickly coming to an end. Yep. This has been a long process. I'm surprised more people haven't fought it. Just as an example we (a Sheriff's dept) can't even listen to the state troopers unless they switch to a mutual aid channel. Which they aren't going to do unless there is a major incident requiring multiple agencies. It is nice to know that I can talk to someone on the other side of country if we are in the same talk group and it will be crystal clear (goes through internet/phone lines). |
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i thought we were gonna be seeing more transparency in the govt.... What does transparency in government have to do with you listening to the cops channels? Being able to see what they're doing. You can see what they're doing you just cant listen to police talk on the raido. |
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There is no feasible way to crack the digitally-encrypted radio comms now being fielded (you could literally take every computer in the world, cluster them all together, and set them to work on brute-forcing the crypto key, and it would literally take all of recorded history to recover a single key) Even if you got a radio, and got the key put in on-the-sly, they have OTAR (over-the-air-rekeying), which allows them to change crypto keys on-the-fly. This would render your radio unusable. Most of the digital systems also tag individual radios with a unique ID number, so you know who is on the system, and whose radio it is. If a strange radio shows up on the system, they can send a command to remotely kill or stun your radio. The era of scanners is quickly coming to an end. This is what we use. 
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There is no feasible way to crack the digitally-encrypted radio comms now being fielded (you could literally take every computer in the world, cluster them all together, and set them to work on brute-forcing the crypto key, and it would literally take all of recorded history to recover a single key) Even if you got a radio, and got the key put in on-the-sly, they have OTAR (over-the-air-rekeying), which allows them to change crypto keys on-the-fly. This would render your radio unusable. Most of the digital systems also tag individual radios with a unique ID number, so you know who is on the system, and whose radio it is. If a strange radio shows up on the system, they can send a command to remotely kill or stun your radio. The era of scanners is quickly coming to an end. This is what we use. yup, they installed that trunking stuff here last year |
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There is no feasible way to crack the digitally-encrypted radio comms now being fielded (you could literally take every computer in the world, cluster them all together, and set them to work on brute-forcing the crypto key, and it would literally take all of recorded history to recover a single key) Even if you got a radio, and got the key put in on-the-sly, they have OTAR (over-the-air-rekeying), which allows them to change crypto keys on-the-fly. This would render your radio unusable. Most of the digital systems also tag individual radios with a unique ID number, so you know who is on the system, and whose radio it is. If a strange radio shows up on the system, they can send a command to remotely kill or stun your radio. The era of scanners is quickly coming to an end. This is what we use. Same |
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So where can I get ahold of such a system for my own personal use for comms with friends and family? How much would such a system cost? What kind of range are we talking?
I'm assuming the Feds and State are just as helpless to defeat a 128 bit encrypted radio comm system as I am. |
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So where can I get ahold of such a system for my own personal use for comms with friends and family? How much would such a system cost? What kind of range are we talking? I'm assuming the Feds and State are just as helpless to defeat a 128 bit encrypted radio comm system as I am. Radio to radio, or are you going to use towers and repeaters? |
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So where can I get ahold of such a system for my own personal use for comms with friends and family? How much would such a system cost? What kind of range are we talking? I'm assuming the Feds and State are just as helpless to defeat a 128 bit encrypted radio comm system as I am. I wouldn't be so sure about it not being crackable, the state probably can't, but at the federal level there are some very interesting toys, and if it can be built it can be cracked. |
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Are your encrypted radios also frequency hoping? or is it just an encryption system? They frequency hop...so to speak. It works just like the trunk tracking system. The transmitters (both on radios and repeaters) use whatever frequencies are open within a certain range. |
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So where can I get ahold of such a system for my own personal use for comms with friends and family? How much would such a system cost? What kind of range are we talking? I'm assuming the Feds and State are just as helpless to defeat a 128 bit encrypted radio comm system as I am. Radio to radio, or are you going to use towers and repeaters? What's the max range you can reasonably expect radio to radio? |
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Are your encrypted radios also frequency hoping? or is it just an encryption system? They frequency hop...so to speak. It works just like the trunk tracking system. The transmitters (both on radios and repeaters) use whatever frequencies are open within a certain range. Oh ok, thats different than a true frequency hoping radio like some of the ones we use, ours are encrypted and frequency hop, so even if you crack the encryption, unless you match the frequency hop (which is incredibly hard to do) you still won't be able to hear us. Disclaimer: I'm not a guru on radio's I just know enough to hurt myself. |
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So where can I get ahold of such a system for my own personal use for comms with friends and family? How much would such a system cost? What kind of range are we talking? I'm assuming the Feds and State are just as helpless to defeat a 128 bit encrypted radio comm system as I am. Radio to radio, or are you going to use towers and repeaters? What's the max range you can reasonably expect radio to radio? Almost all of our frequencies hit repeaters...I think most of the hand to hand VHF's can go about 5 miles. ETA: It varies based on how much juice you can pump into the transmission though. Look into CB or ham for your purposes. We have a dedicated forum. |
| We use 2 radio systems where I work and it's good and bad. The in-unit "main" radios are nothing special, any scanner can pick em up. The portable radios we have on our belts are the digital kind, and they are tracked and all that. what sucks is that they are not linked. the dispatcher has a base radio for communicating to units, and the same damn portable we have, it's fucking retarded. it would be nice if they were all linked up to one system so whether its the portable or the main, it's all the same stuff. |
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We use 2 radio systems where I work and it's good and bad. The in-unit "main" radios are nothing special, any scanner can pick em up. The portable radios we have on our belts are the digital kind, and they are tracked and all that. what sucks is that they are not linked. the dispatcher has a base radio for communicating to units, and the same damn portable we have, it's fucking retarded. it would be nice if they were all linked up to one system so whether its the portable or the main, it's all the same stuff. Yeah, same here for now. Those new radios cost 3 grand each. All the full time officers have the new hand helds, but not radios or scanners in their car for the new system. When they go out of the car they take the old VHF hand held and the new 800 mhz hand held. None of the reserves have the new radios yet. Only fire chiefs and ambulances have the new radios on the FD/EMS side. So non of the firefighters or EMT's have the new radios. Also, there is not a system available currently (that I'm aware of) which let's you page on the 800 mhz system. It's an expensive cluster. |
| Most agencies are going digital and they are being told that it was encrypted and it is not. It is just digital. Some are actually encrypted but the crypto boards in most of those radios are very pricey. Depending on the quality of the encryption the board itself can be more than the radio itself. The issue with most systems that are on the cheaper side is that they are not using all the possible keys. One of the most popular encryption systems only use about 50k keys. This causes problems due to being a limited number of keys and it becomes much easier to decode. The bit about 128 bit crypto taking more than recorded time to crack is not correct and usually used as a sales pitch. There has been groups that used a single computer with a high end graphics card to crack and decode 128bit in under 20 minutes. Now there are some fantastic levels of crypto out there but most people don't touch NS1 level crypto. |
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The more I think about it................
The more I worry about ID theft when we run people on the "data" channel. A lot of people seem to scan not to listen to what the police do, but collect "gossip" about their neighbors. I'd like to keep the police out of the gossip business. |
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Before iI retired everyone was issued a hand held 800 MHz. My handheld had over 150 frequencies and I could talk to every agency in the County. On top of that, the radio had a built in scanner so I could listen to other channels. There are three separate 800 MHz systems in San Diego, RCS, San Diego PD, and San Diego Harbor PD. These are digital, trunked systems. There are specific DEC (Digitally Encrypted Channels) that are assigned to special units and not everyone had these channels on their radios. The rest of the channels can be scanned if you have a scanner that follows trunked calls. The radio in my car was also on the 800MHz system.
The radios also have a number of emergency features for officer protection. Each radio can be turned off by the system and made useless. If one of ours was lost, whenever the radio was turned on, the display would flash "REWARD". The person could turn the radio in and get a reward. One interesting story is that the system went into "Failsoft" mode when a large number of users went 10-8 and overloaded he system. Here is the official web site for the RCS which covers San Diego and Imperial Counties: RCS Digital Radio Web Site |
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I used to not care that our radios were not encrypted. If you have so little to do in life you want to listen to me run tags and stuff,more power to you. Then one night we had a drive by where the first description of the vehicle was a gold mercedes,then the state(who was first on scene) sent over the state channel,which was encrypted,the proper description which was a white impala with customized tags I recognized as a local bangers car. I waited at the end of his road and sure enough he comes driving up like nothing had happened, I executed a felony stop and took all occupants into custody. As I and other officers were arresting the group a bunch of their banger friends showed up and one of them let slip"Why did you stop them you were only supposed to be looking for a gold mercedes??!!" It was obvious they had been listening to our channels and had called their boys to tell them it was safe to come home.
I recovered 4 guns which matched shell casings at the scene of the driveby from the car,the only person hit in 40 shots by the bangers was a 9 year old girl 3 trailers over from their target. I am now glad we are dispatched on secure or by in car computer. |
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Encrypting most LE comminications is simply a waste of taxpayers resources. Swat, undercover stuff, sure. But routine patrol and such? Managing the keys, paying extra for radios with DES/AES etc is simply a waste of taxpayers money. Managing a radio fleet costs $$$, adding encryption to every radio in the fleet increases that cost.
I have seen more than one agency jump into full encryption, only to back off once they realized the overhead and that having neighboring agencies unable to listen was a bad thing. That said, don't confuse P25/APCO25 with encryted. P25 is just a digital mode requiring the right equipment. I run P25 on the ham radio bands. |
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Most agencies are going digital and they are being told that it was encrypted and it is not. It is just digital. Some are actually encrypted but the crypto boards in most of those radios are very pricey. Depending on the quality of the encryption the board itself can be more than the radio itself. The issue with most systems that are on the cheaper side is that they are not using all the possible keys. One of the most popular encryption systems only use about 50k keys. This causes problems due to being a limited number of keys and it becomes much easier to decode. The bit about 128 bit crypto taking more than recorded time to crack is not correct and usually used as a sales pitch. There has been groups that used a single computer with a high end graphics card to crack and decode 128bit in under 20 minutes. Now there are some fantastic levels of crypto out there but most people don't touch NS1 level crypto. I agree. Most people confuse going digital and going encrypted. Very few fully encrypted municpalities out there, and most drop the crypto after a while because of the headache it causes. |
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Signed letter? Huh? CT state police, for one, are digitally encrypted, but anyone with a scanner with a certain APCO card in it can hear them L&C. It's just digital then. Not encrypted. Some are just going to the 800 mhz digital. Most are having them encrypted. Ours are encrypted. Yep. Ours is to...I'm working dispatch right now. We are able to see exactly who is transmitting and where they are transmitting from. There are lots of people who aren't emergency services but listen to scanners for various reasons. They won't be able to with this new system. Wrong. It's not trivial, but plaintext portions of the packet headers are still available, and with them, it's a matter of hours until you can crack the key. The same reason WEP and WPA are trivially cracked with a phone and 1/2 hour now. |