[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Refusing the census (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 6/20/2009 8:11:52 AM EDT
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Yesterday the guest host of the Rush Limbaugh program asked under what authority can you refuse to answer extraneous census questions. This was broached by a Minnesota congresswoman stating she will refuse to answer any questions except the constitutionally mandated "heads on beds" question. The guest host asked, "Under what authority do you claim to be able to refuse to answer since it is a law and there are both criminal and civil penalties attached."
Now let's start off by saying a unconstitutional law is not a law at all. So even though there is a federal statute which requires you to answer every question, you can avoid that law if you can find a constitutional provision which prevents its implementation. The constitution has granted broad powers to congress to implement laws, and for the purposes of argument lets assume that congress has the power to promulgate the law requiring answering the questions. (The law is valid on its face, absent a contrary constitutional provision). So where do you base your decision not to answer the questions? Please give article and paragraph and/or case name if you expect a response. I have my own theory but I want to see what everyone else thinks and my theory was NOT brought up on the show... |
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Yesterday the guest host of the Rush Limbaugh program asked under what authority can you refuse to answer extraneous census questions. This was broached by a Minnesota congresswoman stating she will refuse to answer any questions except the constitutionally mandated "heads on beds" question. The guest host asked, "Under what authority do you claim to be able to refuse to answer since it is a law and there are both criminal and civil penalties attached." Now let's start off by saying a unconstitutional law is not a law at all. So even though there is a federal statute which requires you to answer every question, you can avoid that law if you can find a constitutional provision which prevents its implementation. The constitution has granted broad powers to congress to implement laws, and for the purposes of argument lets assume that congress has the power to promulgate the law requiring answering the questions. (The law is valid on its face, absent a contrary constitutional provision). So where do you base your decision not to answer the questions? Please give article and paragraph and/or case name if you expect a response. I have my own theory but I want to see what everyone else thinks and my theory was NOT brought up on the show... What kind of extraneous questions? |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XtuPvwBa2U Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Maybe the community survey one, they want to know how big your house is, how much you owe and make and most importantly, how much gubment assistance you are getting. I kept telling them it was none of their business, they kept calling back and finally got my wife who gave them answers straight from Disneyland, which made them happy and keeps me out of court. |
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During the 2000 census my wife and I owned two homes. Long story, but we were going to divorce then, bought a second house for her, then ended reconciling and both living at the new house. Eventually we remodeled the first house, moved back into it, and sold the second one.
The census tells you to answer the questions as they apply on one certain day. On that certain day we were living in the second house and had the first one tore up in the middle of a remodel. We received TWO census forms for the second house. One for xxx NE Streetname and one for xxx E Streetname. The street is the city limit boundary and I lived on the county side, which the county calls NE Streetname. The city calls the street E Streetname on their side, and isn't a valid address on my side but managed to cause duplicate census forms to be sent. Both were the short form and I accurately filled out the correctly addressed one. We all lived there, etc, etc. I returned the incorrectly addressed one saying it was an incorrectly addressed duplicate and mentioned the correct address. At the first house we received the long form with all the extra BS questions. I stated that nobody lived there on the date in question and therefore didn't have to answer the extra questions. All done legally, accurately, and truthfully. |
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While we have a lot of people saying what they will do or have done... So far no one has offered any supporting legal theory behind the civil disobedience.  This won't stand up? Quoted: I plead the fif |
| I didn't send in the extended form last time. They sent a census taker to my home to get it filled out. I told her that I lived there with my wife and two children. She asked if my wife was named ...... and I said yes. She then asked what were my children's names and ages, I told her the ages but not their names. She insisted I tell her, I told her that I didn't have to and refused. She said I was required by law to tell her. I refused again. and I also told her that I refused to answer any form that I wasn't required to. I explained that I didn't trust the census after what the feds had done to the Japanese during WWII. And explained what they did. She was quite insistent that the US government wouldn't and couldn't do that. I told her thank you be on your way. Put my aluminum hat back on and went back to my yard work. They never contacted me again. I plan to have even more fun if they send around an ACORN member this time. |
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While we have a lot of people saying what they will do or have done... So far no one has offered any supporting legal theory behind the civil disobedience. What are they going to do arrest you, for not filling out their form? I doubt it. They haven't arrested me yet. |
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I have never fully completed a census form.
I only answer questions that the information is available publicly, such as address, phone #, income (IRS knows) and # of people living at address. If questions are asked that the information is not availble publicly or cannot be found at the courthouse, or I feel is a breach of privacy, or I'm not comfortable with, I don't answer. I have never been fined or called. If there is a question regarding religion, I don't answer based on seperation of church and state. My take is not answering is based on the right to privacy. |
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I have never fully completed a census form. I only answer questions that the information is available publicly, such as address, phone #, income (IRS knows) and # of people living at address. If questions are asked that the information is not availble publicly or cannot be found at the courthouse, or I feel is a breach of privacy, or I'm not comfortable with, I don't answer. I have never been fined or called. If there is a question regarding religion, I don't answer based on seperation of church and state. My take is not answering is based on the right to privacy. I don't even answer that much, I just answer wife's name, mine, never the kids, they don't need my phone #, unlisted, income, none of their damn business, # of bathrooms none of their damn business. I have never been fined. |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XtuPvwBa2U Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Maybe the community survey one, they want to know how big your house is, how much you owe and make and most importantly, how much gubment assistance you are getting. The accurate answers to each of those questions are easily and quickly available through public records, credit bureaus and Lexis Nexis. |
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The Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that:
“ The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. ” Search and seizure is a legal procedure used in many civil law and common law legal systems whereby police or other authorities and their agents, who suspect that a crime has been committed, do a search of a person's property and confiscate any relevant evidence to the crime. Most countries have provisions in their constitutions that provide the public with the right to be free from "unreasonable" search and seizure. This right is generally based on the premise that everyone is entitled to a reasonable right to privacy. These constitutional rights are respected in democracies. Though interpretation may vary, this right usually requires law enforcement to obtain a search warrant before engaging in any form of search and seizure. I'll say by using the 4th A. mainly, but also throw in a little 5th A. - here goes: ACORN = "their agents" + the recent DHS report labeling people like me as right-wing extremists, means that I am fearful of giving them any information that might incriminate me (5A) they must first present to me a valid search warrant before I'll give these "agents" any information (evidence) (4A). |
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The Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that: “ The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. ” Search and seizure is a legal procedure used in many civil law and common law legal systems whereby police or other authorities and their agents, who suspect that a crime has been committed, do a search of a person's property and confiscate any relevant evidence to the crime. Most countries have provisions in their constitutions that provide the public with the right to be free from "unreasonable" search and seizure. This right is generally based on the premise that everyone is entitled to a reasonable right to privacy. These constitutional rights are respected in democracies. Though interpretation may vary, this right usually requires law enforcement to obtain a search warrant before engaging in any form of search and seizure. I'll say by using the 4th A. mainly, but also throw in a little 5th A. - here goes: ACORN = "their agents" + the recent DHS report labeling people like me as right-wing extremists, means that I am fearful of giving them any information that might incriminate me (5A) they must first present to me a valid search warrant before I'll give these "agents" any information (evidence) (4A). Excellent, I like this. 
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| Here is an angle I've been considering, Census is supposed to be anonymous but they are now barcoded with your identity. So what if we do a massive swap, even here on arfcom. If you are in IL for example, swap with me here in Fl. we fill out the info then send em in. |
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First of all, I see no reason to answer anything other that the number of people living in my household. That's all I filled out on the form last time. The fourth amendment (search/seizure) defense may be what you're looking for? fourth protects unreasonable searches and seizures. The argument will be that congresses finding of the necessity of the extended questionnaire makes it reasonable, and it is not a search or a seizure of your information. The right to privacy is tied to the penumbra of Griswold v. Conn and therefore to Roe v. Wade. While I personally like to tie conservative ideals to liberal sacred cows the guest host did not like this idea. So I'm still looking for a better right an enumerated right to base non-compliance on. And yes TBS I know where I am,. Just trying to raise the discourse a bit. 
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The Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that: “ The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. ” Search and seizure is a legal procedure used in many civil law and common law legal systems whereby police or other authorities and their agents, who suspect that a crime has been committed, do a search of a person's property and confiscate any relevant evidence to the crime. Most countries have provisions in their constitutions that provide the public with the right to be free from "unreasonable" search and seizure. This right is generally based on the premise that everyone is entitled to a reasonable right to privacy. These constitutional rights are respected in democracies. Though interpretation may vary, this right usually requires law enforcement to obtain a search warrant before engaging in any form of search and seizure. I'll say by using the 4th A. mainly, but also throw in a little 5th A. - here goes: ACORN = "their agents" + the recent DHS report labeling people like me as right-wing extremists, means that I am fearful of giving them any information that might incriminate me (5A) they must first present to me a valid search warrant before I'll give these "agents" any information (evidence) (4A). There no criminal investigation. The 4th amendment right does not apply to civil proceedings. This is a non-starter. BUT it is a very good effort. Keep thinking outside the box only don't try to make it more criminal then it has to be. |
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Scare tactics. You know how some forms have under penalty of law blah blah blah you answered all questions truthfully blah blah blah. I've had several forms with that shit on them required my SS# which I refuse to give to anyone. You've you got my fingerprints, my blood type my enlistment forms and other shit that has my info on it you ACORN asses do your job and you'll find it.
U.S. Census 2000 Update
Americans from coast to coast have been receiving the U.S. Census mailings and hundreds of HSLDA members have contacted us with questions or concerns about the census. Census officials have received over 1 million phone calls, many of which are complaints against the probing nature of the census questions. Furthermore, thousands of calls to Capitol Hill have taken staffers by surprise. “We are swamped with calls about the census,” said one congressional aide. This Tuesday alone, U.S. Census headquarters logged over 600,000 incoming calls on their census hotline from concerned citizens. On Wednesday, March 29th, Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott and other Republicans in Congress attacked what they called the intrusiveness of the Census Bureau’s 53-question long form, saying people shouldn't answer the questions that invade their privacy. Lott (R-Miss.) has received a number of complaints from constituents about the long form, which was sent to one in six of the country’s 115 million households, spokesman John Czwartacki said. “If there’s a question that invades their privacy they should leave it blank,” Czwartacki said, while at the same time urging everyone to fill out and return their forms. Earlier this week, Rep. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) urged people to answer just the first six questions on the long form before sending it back to the Census Bureau with a letter of protest. “I’m appalled and outraged by the intrusiveness of this questionnaire,” he said. “It is ridiculous for the Census Bureau to ask personal questions that have nothing to do with their constitutional mandate to count the citizens of the United States.” A number of parents have called the Home School Legal Defense Association, wanting to know their rights in regard to the upcoming questionnaires. How can they protect the integrity and confidentiality of their home schools while responding to the U.S. Census? In this report prepared by my legal staff,HSLDA attempts to provide answers to frequently asked questions about the census. What are the U.S. census questions? According to the U.S. Census Bureau, there are two types of forms, and only one was mailed to your residence. The mailing was based on random computer selection. (1) The short form was mailed to 83 percent of all U.S. households. It is very basic, with seven questions for the head of the household: name, age, date of birth, sex, race, Hispanic origin, homeowner or renter. The rest of the individuals in the house receive six questions: name, age, date of birth, sex, race, and Hispanic origin. (2) The second form, the long form (53 questions), is what many people consider an invasion of privacy. The long form was mailed to 17 percent of the population—one out of every six households. Generally, the U.S. Census long form covers the following subjects as allowed by federal law, Title 13 of the United States Code Service (USCS): * Social characteristics of population: marital status, place of birth, citizenship, year of entry, education-school enrollment, educational attainment, ancestry, residence five years ago (migration), language spoken at home, veteran status, disability, grandparents as care givers. * Economic characteristics of population: labor force status (current), place of work and journey to work, work status last year, industry, occupation, class of worker, income (previous year). * Physical characteristics of housing: units in structure, number of rooms, number of bedrooms, plumbing and kitchen facilities, year structure built, year moved into unit, house heating fuel, telephone, vehicles available, farm residence. * Financial characteristics of housing: value of home, monthly rent, shelter costs, (selected monthly owner costs). Do I have to fill out the whole form? The most frequent question we get from member families is, “Am I required by law to answer every single question on the long form?” The U.S. Census is mandatory by federal law for both the long and short forms. There is clear federal warning in the code about refusal to give the required information to the Census Bureau. U.S. Code, Title 13 states that citizens must comply with the census or face a $100 fine. There is a $500 penalty for giving false information. You can attempt to request a short form from the Census Bureau or call the regional office to discuss options, but it is unlikely that your request will be granted. Are the census questions constitutional? Article I, Section 2(3) of the U.S. Constitution is the provision that authorizes a census. “The actual enumeration shall be made within three years after the first meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent term of ten years, in such a manner as they shall by law direct.” The last phrase, “in such a manner as they shall by law direct,” gives the Congress broad authority to determine the scope and process for collecting the census. Congress used this authority to define the parameters of the census in Title 13 of the U.S. Code. Will there be any questions about home schooling? You will encounter one question about education and school enrollment on the long form only. We recommend that you check the private school option for your home school, simply because there is no home school option, and in many states home schools can be considered private schools. The question on the long form is: “At any time since February 1, 2000, has this person attended regular school or college? (Include only nursery school or preschool, kindergarten, elementary school, and schooling which leads to a high school diploma or a college degree).” The best answer for home schoolers is: “Yes, private school.” Will a census worker come to my door? Do I have to let him inside? There is a pre-listing and listing operation underway to make sure that addresses are correct, especially in new neighborhoods. This means that there will be certain instances where you will see census workers in the field. However, census workers are not typically going to go door to door. There is simply not enough time or money to do this. The only reason a census worker will come to your door is if you have not returned the forms or if you have a new address. They are not authorized to enter your home or collect information that is not required by law.HSLDA will protect our member families against any attempt to collect home school information. Home schoolers also have a friend in the Census Bureau. William (Bill) Lloyd works for the Census Bureau as a researcher and computer specialist. He is also a home school father, MACHE Board Member, and also works with Dr. Brian Ray and the National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI). He is willing to answer your questions and concerns on a time-available basis if you call him at 301-372-2889. If you are unable to reach him, leave a message and he will call you back at his earliest convenience. If you would like to read the HSLDA position paper on the U.S. Census and our recommendations to home schoolers, please visit the Census 2000 Issue Center on our web site at: http://www.HSLDA.org/docs/IssueCenter.asp?IssueID=36.HSLDA recommends that you also contact the U.S. Census Hotline Phone Number at 1-800-471-9424 for more information. The 2010 Questions I had to look for myself. SInce it is a guberment site dont anyone hotlink this, leave it cold. http://www.census.gov/acs/www/Downloads/Questions_Planned_for_the_2010_Census_and_American_Community_Survey.pdf |
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I don't answer personal info over the phone. I don't give a shit who they say they are.
I don't open the door for anybody I don't know. Fuck them I'm not home. Unless they send the survey Certified or Registered mail, I never received it. I also don't sign for anything if I don't know what it is. |
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The Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that: “ The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. ” Search and seizure is a legal procedure used in many civil law and common law legal systems whereby police or other authorities and their agents, who suspect that a crime has been committed, do a search of a person's property and confiscate any relevant evidence to the crime. Most countries have provisions in their constitutions that provide the public with the right to be free from "unreasonable" search and seizure. This right is generally based on the premise that everyone is entitled to a reasonable right to privacy. These constitutional rights are respected in democracies. Though interpretation may vary, this right usually requires law enforcement to obtain a search warrant before engaging in any form of search and seizure. I'll say by using the 4th A. mainly, but also throw in a little 5th A. - here goes: ACORN = "their agents" + the recent DHS report labeling people like me as right-wing extremists, means that I am fearful of giving them any information that might incriminate me (5A) they must first present to me a valid search warrant before I'll give these "agents" any information (evidence) (4A). There no criminal investigation. The 4th amendment right does not apply to civil proceedings. This is a non-starter. BUT it is a very good effort. Keep thinking outside the box only don't try to make it more criminal then it has to be. This is my point. Taking a census should be a run-of-the-mill type of operation. It should be a civil affair. HOWEVER, using my above reasoning, it is in fact a method of gathering evidence against me, hence a criminal matter. The same could be said for government road blocks, checking to see if persons are wearing seatbelts, or have an expired registration etc. A civil matter - but then they see that you have an NRA sticker on your bumper, so they ask for weapons info. You get my drift here? A typical (civil) matter can turn into a criminal matter in a hurry. |
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The way I read the OP's challenge we are to assume that congress has the authority to require the questions be answered and we are to assume the law is legit.
But you want a legal process with stated case law or constitutional edict that allows you to disregard the demands of the census...legally.... Seems to be abit of a dichotomy to me. Civil disobedience many times involves violating suspect law. That's the point. 
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my current opinion is peaceful protest. ignore it.
don't refuse to answer just never be available, never answer the phone, make them send workers to my house multiple times cost them tons of money in gasoline and manpower until they finally track me down. they can't fine me for false information if i give nothing. they can't prove i didn't respond if they can't get in contact with me. |
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I don't answer personal info over the phone. I don't give a shit who they say they are. I don't open the door for anybody I don't know. Fuck them I'm not home. Unless they send the survey Certified or Registered mail, I never received it. I also don't sign for anything if I don't know what it is. This, +100. Couldn't have said it better myself... 
ETA: Perhaps should have been: This, +1000, especially when identity theft/fraud is so prevalent and widespread. |
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my current opinion is peaceful protest. ignore it. don't refuse to answer just never be available, never answer the phone, make them send workers to my house multiple times cost them tons of money in gasoline and manpower until they finally track me down. they can't fine me for false information if i give nothing. they can't prove i didn't respond if they can't get in contact with me. The problem with that is the democrats answer and get more congressional seats and more money because of it. Not answering the basics is a self defeating proposition. |
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I did not take the 1990 census. Refused to return the forms. They came to my home and mailed threatening letters. I still didn't fill it out and nothing happened. That was under George the first. Who knows what Obama's Commissars would do. Fooooookin ballllllls mate |
| If it's Acorn at my door, I can tell them to get off my property couldn't I? If they refuse would it then be within my rights to give him/her a face full of Fox Labs? What's the penalty to tell them to go screw themselves? $100? I wouldn't mind being fined a C note to be able to spray them. Hmmm. |
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I did not take the 1990 census. Refused to return the forms. They came to my home and mailed threatening letters. I still didn't fill it out and nothing happened. That was under George the first. Who knows what Obama's Commissars would do. Fooooookin ballllllls mate I wasn't protesting anything. I wasn't trying to make a statement. I just didn't feel like doing it. Hell, back then, I had no idea there was a real penalty. Even when they made threats, I had very strong doubts that they would bother prosecuting me. I figured that if they had enough info to file a case, they had enough info for their census. |
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I did not take the 1990 census. Refused to return the forms. They came to my home and mailed threatening letters. I still didn't fill it out and nothing happened. That was under George the first. Who knows what Obama's Commissars would do. This time you will be sent to the re-education camps in the dessert regions.. 
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| The Constitutional power is obtain an actual enumeration of the number of people living in each state for the purposes of deciding representation. Anything BEYOND that is not a lawful power. So they can ask how many people live at my house, they might even be able to ask names and ages, but income, debt, demographics, etc are beyond the lawful powers. |