Posted: 5/18/2009 9:53:52 AM EDT
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I'm an engineer with 5 years' experience and I work, under contract, for a large technical organization. I work directly for "company A" who then contracts my labor to "company B." Standard contract, they're very common. I have been in this position/contract for three years.
"Company B" has an affiliated company. They are part of the same conglomerate/umbrella, but separate as far as tax and legal matters are concerned. I'll call it "company C." Company C has informed me that they wish to make a job offer to me. They want me to stay in the same position and do the same job at company B. I would, of course, have to quit from company A. Since B/C will save money (basically contracting to themselves), they can afford to offer me a better salary to the tune of an extra 10-15% and still come out ahead. Obviously, this represents a large pay increase for me. Now, I'm aware of what usually happens within contracting circles. I'm also aware of what the ethical procedure should be. This is a question to the hive, however. Where business ethics are concerned, what is the proper course of action for me to take? ETA: Where the current written contract is concerned, assume that there are no penalties or conflicts for early termination by either party (A or B). |
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What was the non-compete agreement in your contract? I've seen several people make this kind of transition when it's something like this: 1. Company A is working on project X for company B as an outsourced project 2. Company B wants to take project X in-house and engineer E is the expert 3. Company B convinces company A to let them take engineer E because they'll still get work on other projects 4. Profit I'm sure it's done all the time without such mutually-agreeable arrangements, but in those cases there's a lot more sneaking around and engineer E just happening to show up at company B by an amazing coincidence after leaving company A for personal reasons. As far as ethics, for me it would depend on the impact of making the move. If engineer E is the only one working on project X and company A is going to lose the work anyway, I don't see the big deal in engineer E protecting his interests. But if his jumping ship would be the mechanism for company A losing the work, and several other people at company A would suddenly not be on a contract or the owners of company A would be out a lot of money, then I would call it unethical. ETA: Are you sure about the amount of the markup on your time? If you end up going with company C, maybe they can really give you a 25% bump or more. |
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Quoted:
... But if his jumping ship would be the mechanism for company A losing the work ... company A would be out a lot of money ... then I would call it unethical. This is the case. So you're saying it would be unethical for me to take the job at all? Or is there some action that would fulfill my responsibility to Co. A? |
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Quoted: Quoted: ... But if his jumping ship would be the mechanism for company A losing the work ... company A would be out a lot of money ... then I would call it unethical. This is the case. So you're saying it would be unethical for me to take the job at all? Or is there some action that would fulfill my responsibility to Co. A? What I mean is, are you at the tail end of some project that your company is not going to have much longer anyway, or it's just going to go on like this for another year where effectively you're working for company B and company A is just taking a slice but not really involved? In that case I don't see a problem making the move. On the other hand, if company A has staffed up for this contract with company B and a lot of people depend on that work, then it's possible that you'd be screwing over company A if you jumped ship. Partly it depends on how you got there. If company A simply body-shopped you to company B for a percentage, I don't think you owe them much. But if they did a ton of work to build up the relationship with company B and gave you lots of training and support or spent years helping you build up to your current level of marketability, then there may be some obligation to company A beyond the strict limits of whatever you signed. ETA: Please don't take anything here as being judgemental. Nobody replying to this thread could possibly know the nuances of your situation. Anything I write here is strictly in the vein of things I would ask a friend of mine to think about if he was in this spot. |
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ETA: Where the current written contract is concerned, assume that there are no penalties or conflicts for early termination by either party (A or B). You owe nobody an explanation for anything. In fact, you do not even owe them any warning of your actions...They can lay you off or fire you with no warning, it works the same way. |
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do you have a non-compete that prevents you from switching contractually?
If so try and work it out so you don't get into legal situations if not say goodbye to A, and Hello C. Nobody's looking at for you, except you. The only exception is if company C will let you go in 3 months after job is done, and company A will keep you on and move you into another job. |
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Company A, B and C will use you, sitck their Corporate cock so far up your ass you cant see straight, then dump you on the corner like a dead bangkok hooker when they are done with you. You have NO alleigance or commitment to ANY of these companies, and in these times, you need to look out for #1. But, before you switch... I would take a look into the future stability of companies B and C, and compare them to company A. If company B/C seem stable enough for long term employment, and you will make 10-15% more doing the SAME job, then go for it. If there is ANY reason to suspect that company B/C may have a rough/shady future in the current economy, then stay with company A for the stability. Just my .02 after having my ideas and talents being used, consumed, and shit out the other side by too many companies. TIRED of other people getting fat and rich off of my work, ideas, and talent. Complete bullshit. |
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ETA: Where the current written contract is concerned, assume that there are no penalties or conflicts for early termination by either party (A or B). You owe nobody an explanation for anything. In fact, you do not even owe them any warning of your actions...They can lay you off or fire you with no warning, it works the same way. Contract employees usually have more protection since they are no longer 'at will.' Check all the contracts carefully. They may have non-compete clauses, or even premiums paid if the company you are contracted to hires you. |
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What I mean is, are you at the tail end of some project that your company is not going to have much longer anyway, or it's just going to go on like this for another year where effectively you're working for company B and company A is just taking a slice but not really involved? In that case I don't see a problem making the move. On the other hand, if company A has staffed up for this contract with company B and a lot of people depend on that work, then it's possible that you'd be screwing over company A if you jumped ship. Partly it depends on how you got there. If company A simply body-shopped you to company B for a percentage, I don't think you owe them much. But if they did a ton of work to build up the relationship with company B and gave you lots of training and support or spent years helping you build up to your current level of marketability, then there may be some obligation to company A beyond the strict limits of whatever you signed. ETA: Please don't take anything here as being judgemental. Nobody replying to this thread could possibly know the nuances of your situation. Anything I write here is strictly in the vein of things I would ask a friend of mine to think about if he was in this spot. Just to answer the questions here. The contract is for one person to have their labor sold from Co. A to Co. B. "Body-shopped" if you will. I was assigned to the contract after the previous person quit (to go become an investment banker. Go figiure.). I have built a very favorable relationship with Co. B during that time. I did not actually sign the contract between the two companies. I only signed the contract of employment with Co. A, which is "at will." We are in an at-will state as well, FWIW. ETA: I know that I'm bound by contracts signed by Co. A, including non-compete clauses. Let's assume, however, that the contract can be broken with no penalties against either side. And don't worry about being judgmental at all. I'm not going to worry too much about what happens on the internet anyhow. I'm just curious to see what the hive has to say. So far, they seem to indicate doing what normally happens in this situation. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
ETA: Where the current written contract is concerned, assume that there are no penalties or conflicts for early termination by either party (A or B). You owe nobody an explanation for anything. In fact, you do not even owe them any warning of your actions...They can lay you off or fire you with no warning, it works the same way. Contract employees usually have more protection since they are no longer 'at will.' Check all the contracts carefully. They may have non-compete clauses, or even premiums paid if the company you are contracted to hires you. Contract employees usually have more protection since they are no longer 'at will.'
If MD is an "at will" state such as VA, there is no protection offered by the term "at will"; such an employee may be terminated just as easily as the next. Check all the contracts carefully.'
That would be an unrealistic expectation, and not how government contracting companies work. The OP, or any government contractor, is likely not in the position of asking the hiring manager if they may speak with the contracting officer for the business unit first...that's not good form. |
| In that case, and assuming I know company b/c is a place I would like to work, I would approach your boss at company A, make them aware of the offer, and see if they want to make a counter-offer. If they make a better one , great. If not, then I'd give notice. |
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Quoted: Quoted: What I mean is, are you at the tail end of some project that your company is not going to have much longer anyway, or it's just going to go on like this for another year where effectively you're working for company B and company A is just taking a slice but not really involved? In that case I don't see a problem making the move. On the other hand, if company A has staffed up for this contract with company B and a lot of people depend on that work, then it's possible that you'd be screwing over company A if you jumped ship. Partly it depends on how you got there. If company A simply body-shopped you to company B for a percentage, I don't think you owe them much. But if they did a ton of work to build up the relationship with company B and gave you lots of training and support or spent years helping you build up to your current level of marketability, then there may be some obligation to company A beyond the strict limits of whatever you signed. ETA: Please don't take anything here as being judgemental. Nobody replying to this thread could possibly know the nuances of your situation. Anything I write here is strictly in the vein of things I would ask a friend of mine to think about if he was in this spot. Just to answer the questions here. The contract is for one person to have their labor sold from Co. A to Co. B. "Body-shopped" if you will. I was assigned to the contract after the previous person quit (to go become an investment banker. Go figiure.). I have built a very favorable relationship with Co. B during that time. I did not actually sign the contract between the two companies. I only signed the contract of employment with Co. A, which is "at will." We are in an at-will state as well, FWIW. ETA: I know that I'm bound by contracts signed by Co. A, including non-compete clauses. Let's assume, however, that the contract can be broken with no penalties against either side. And don't worry about being judgmental at all. I'm not going to worry too much about what happens on the internet anyhow. I'm just curious to see what the hive has to say. So far, they seem to indicate doing what normally happens in this situation. Yeah, in that case it sounds GTG. Just the fact that you were able to start the thread with "company A", "company B", etc. and give a coherent account and stick with your convention through multiple posts means you're probably worth 10-15% more than what you're getting. I spend a lot of my day trying to decipher coworkers' emails, so it's been a pleasure talking to you. |
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Depends on which you would be happy working for and who has the better path for raises and promotions. Which company is more stable?
If your current company would be better in the long run, ask them to match the offer. If Company B/C would be better for you in the long run, then what are you waiting for?! Take the money and the better opportunity. Maybe it's from working in the tech world, but I see this time and time again. We hire from our best customers, and they hire from us. Some employees go back and forth - customer, vendor, different customer, different vendor - every few years and are able to constantly increase their pay and experience. They gain a lot of knowledge and experience, not to mention extra pay, than those who just stick it out year after year after year. The days of staying at one place for 20 years and retiring are long gone for the most part, so do whatever you can to continually get ahead (as long as you are not breaking agreements or leaving someone out to dry). If its done the proper way there is nothing wrong with it. |
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I'm an engineer with 5 years' experience and I work, under contract, for a large technical organization. I work directly for "company A" who then contracts my labor to "company B." Standard contract, they're very common. I have been in this position/contract for three years. "Company B" has an affiliated company. They are part of the same conglomerate/umbrella, but separate as far as tax and legal matters are concerned. I'll call it "company C." Company C has informed me that they wish to make a job offer to me. They want me to stay in the same position and do the same job at company B. I would, of course, have to quit from company A. Since B/C will save money (basically contracting to themselves), they can afford to offer me a better salary to the tune of an extra 10-15% and still come out ahead. Obviously, this represents a large pay increase for me. Now, I'm aware of what usually happens within contracting circles. I'm also aware of what the ethical procedure should be. This is a question to the hive, however. Where business ethics are concerned, what is the proper course of action for me to take? ETA: Where the current written contract is concerned, assume that there are no penalties or conflicts for early termination by either party (A or B). OP, you should be fine. The other option I may recommend is, if you feel comfortable in doing so, contact your current management to see if they will match the offer. They may: 1) Match the offer; or 2) Mess up the other deal for you either in spite, or 3) Realize there is a conflict of interest situation which you are better off knowing sooner than later. Get the offer in writing from the gaining organization, submit two weeks notice, and take the better offer. THE BIG GLITCH I see is that customers usually frown heavily (and rightly so) on this type of trading, realizing of course they're getting the same body for level-of-effort while paying more. In all my years of contracting and managing personnel, there is a likely hood of impropriety. BE VERY sure, and verify there is no conflict of interest issues. Best, Ed |
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How much are you really going to make after taxes with the new raise? Im sure 10-15% would put you in a different tax bracket. Just a thought. I say go for it.
A few year ago I worked for a company who's district manager had seen me talking to a mgr from another company. My DM ask me later if I was looking for a better offer.... I said "No but its not my job to make sure I dont get a better offer" My next paycheck had a raise on it!! |
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What are the long-term employment prospects looking like for companies B and C? Job stability/security, in other words. This is the thing to consider. As a contractor, nobody is married to each other. They can send you down the road with no notice and no hard feelings. You can do the same to them. It is what contracting is about. Longevity, or "job security" is the question here. Full disclosure: I've been a contract engineer (on and off) for about 32 years. $/hour, job security and pleasant working enviroment are the only things that count. 
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You're a job shopper. You work for a shop. They sell your services. It's unlikely they have intellectual property that anyone cares about.
You quit and go to work for another shop. They sell your services. They probably don't care about any possible IP from the first shop. They pay you more money for your time. The client just happens to be the same and isn't relevant. |
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This isn't an ethical question it's both a legal and financial issue.
If your negative covenant doesn't prevent you from taking the job, and it's in you best long term interests to do so, accept the new position. This sort of thing happens all the time. Just ensure that your ass won't be out on the street with no job at all before you choose your course of action. Good luck with whichever you decide. |