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Posted: 1/16/2002 1:08:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2002 1:15:47 PM EDT by robbyd]
[url]http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/01/16/law.school.shooting/[/url] Going to school in Virginia, this story is really interesting to me. How many of you want to bet that because of this, there are more gun laws in Virginia, or at the least modification of existing laws that pertain to this situation? I know for a fact that guns are allowed on campuses of institutions of higher learning in the state of Virginia. I'd virtually ensure that because of this the state legislature will be taking another look at the law that permits them. However the fact remains that while one may TECHNICALLY carry on campuses of institutions of higher learning, I'd wager that this school (much like mine -- Virginia Tech), had a provision prohibiting students from doing so. With Virginia Tech's policy against the possession of firearms on school grounds by students, I can be expelled for possessing a gun. However I believe no further legal action can be taken if I was handling the weapon in a responsible manner. If this is the case and school provisions exist which prohibit said class of gun possession, the fact of the matter was is that this man was breaking the rules of the law school in the first place, and thus I believe that more laws would not help the situation. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I can think of a possible solution that would have gotten much less people killed most likely: allowing faculty and students with valid CCW licenses to possess their carry gun on campus. If someone started whipping out a gun and shooting people, and 5 other people around him had weapons, I'd wager that at least one of those people would whip theirs out and shoot back. [:)] This is the irony of an armed society being safer that antis fail to grasp. HOWEVER, this carries its own bag of worms, and I'm not sure if I'm 100% for this option, knowing first hand college campuses and living in a dorm. In any case, I'm sure that this is not a good thing for Virginia gun laws, and the antis will use this to their advantage... Let's hear what you guys think, Robby edited to make some minor grammar changes and additions.
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 1:42:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 1:48:49 PM EDT
He was also a foreign exchange student and there would be no legal way for him to get this gu anyways. Keving67
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 1:49:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 1:56:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2002 1:57:22 PM EDT by Wobblin-Goblin]
Originally Posted By DarkHelmet:
Originally Posted By raf: It's a foregone conclusion that the Antis will try to make something out of this. What, if anything, they are able to do is really up to you all in Virginia. Good luck!
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[tinfoilhat] Do you ever wonder if some of these people are hired by the Anti's to help further their agenda? That would be sickening.... kind of like being a fraud on Ebay by creating fake accounts and giving yourself positive feedback... get the drift?[/tinfoilhat]
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Wouldn't put it past them. Interesting historical point: In the early 1930s, an individual who led a powerful anti-gun group had the parliamentary building torched, then blamed his opponents. A power play ensued, with the antis gaining control of the country. That individual led the National Socialist (NAZI) Party. His name was Adolf Hitler.
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 2:01:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 2:32:36 PM EDT
IIRC Neal Knox did a article about a year ago noting the various "coincidences" in regards to the timing of mass shootings and pending legislation. Thought provoking to say the least. If you really want to go back to the beginning, the National Coalition to Ban Handguns (which later became HCI) was formed by Edward O. Welles after his "retirement" from the CIA in 1974. He was known to recruit active duty agents into the gun control organization. It would not surprise me at all if some rogue group well versed in the behavior modification (mind control) techniques refined from MK Ultra found some loner to program, like Patrick Purdy.
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 3:49:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: IIRC Neal Knox did a article about a year ago noting the various "coincidences" in regards to the timing of mass shootings and pending legislation. Thought provoking to say the least. If you really want to go back to the beginning, the National Coalition to Ban Handguns (which later became HCI) was formed by Edward O. Welles after his "retirement" from the CIA in 1974. He was known to recruit active duty agents into the gun control organization. It would not surprise me at all if some rogue group well versed in the behavior modification (mind control) techniques refined from MK Ultra found some loner to program, like Patrick Purdy.
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bet!...no one can say that mind control does'nt work. the problem is finding evidence to support the claim.
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 4:00:29 PM EDT
There is not much that can be done about these random acts unless every building and school has guards who can do cavity searches. At least some of these students stepped up to take this guy down instead of running away like in all the other shootings. America has become so weak that we never stand up for one another like you did many years back. At least there are some left who are brave enough to fight. Bill3508
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 4:35:20 PM EDT
I don't think the great majority in this country is ready to go back to pre-Sept 11 attitudes about gun control. If anything, I believe a great deal of folks who never thought about owning a gun in a million years are now card-carrying members of the RKBA culture! How you gonna get the sheeple back in the fold once they've seen Old Bin Laden McFarmer with his grisly cutting shears? Eric The(CheckOutMyIDF-ApprovedPic)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 4:41:41 PM EDT
Perhaps SteyrAug's proposal on restricting gun rights to citizenship has some merit. Would avoid all the Colin Ferguson wannabes.
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 4:48:57 PM EDT
I carried all during law school and obviously it was not simply paranoia that motivated me to do that. It was a "gun free zone" too. I later found out there were *several* of my classmates who did the same thing. "Gun free zones" didn't stop me, didn't stop them, and certainly no bad guy is gonna say, "Gee, gun free zone? Darn! Guess I'll go kill people somewhere else today." Of course expect the usual suspects to get all the mileage out of this they can. [:(!]
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 5:15:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2002 5:17:33 PM EDT by dbrowne1]
I hope this doesn't lead to any stupid laws. I go to a VA law school (William & Mary) and have a CHL here, so this one caught my attention. There are a few colleges here on which guns are prohibited by statute, and all the rest have their own campus rules against it. If you take this one step further, carrying a gun on college/university property is trespass, and carrying a concealed handgun even with a valid CHL is still illegal CCW because the VA CHL law has a residual exception that makes the CHL invalid on any property that prohibits firearms, whether private or public. So, think about all that before you start carrying at school. I'm not saying "don't do it", but do consider that it's still illegal if you do it. Let's just say that chairborne_ranger and I have something in common...;)
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 5:38:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dbrowne1: I hope this doesn't lead to any stupid laws. I go to a VA law school (William & Mary) and have a CHL here, so this one caught my attention. There are a few colleges here on which guns are prohibited by statute, and all the rest have their own campus rules against it. If you take this one step further, carrying a gun on college/university property is trespass, and carrying a concealed handgun even with a valid CHL is still illegal CCW because the VA CHL law has a residual exception that makes the CHL invalid on any property that prohibits firearms, whether private or public. So, think about all that before you start carrying at school. I'm not saying "don't do it", but do consider that it's still illegal if you do it. Let's just say that chairborne_ranger and I have something in common...;)
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I think you're at the private end of the deal with Virginia laws on this matter (aren't laws great?!? [rolleyes]). Basically, as far as the deal with VT goes, I've talked to one of the university lawyers, and he told me that, yes, in the current state of the law, it is perfectly legal for a citizen who legally owns a gun to carry it on campus (with certain restrictions on the type of gun). Montgomery County (which VT is in) further has no further restrictions on Virginia's open carry law, so this weapon may be carried in open or concealed. I'm sure if you carried it in open sight you'd cause some panic (espically if it was an semi-auto AK or AR-15 on your back! [:)]). Since VT is a public land grant university, I guess they can't do much to nullify the state's law on this issue, past threatening students with expulsion that choose to carry. (cont.)
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 5:39:10 PM EDT
as continued: Here's the part from the Virginia lawbooks on this: From Section 18.2-308 of the Code of Virginia: "It is unlawful to carry any firearm during school hours in any elementary, junior high, or high school, or on such school property or discharge a firearm on school grounds or within 1,000 feet of school property, except as part of the curriculum or other school-sponsored program of any organization permitted by the school. " Also, which may be interesting to several of you, is some legaleese that one of the university's lawyers gave me in responce to my question on this matter: -------------- Just a quick answer to your question about guns on campus. There is a reference to your question in the student handbook on pages 136&160 but it only deals with on campus students and what is expected of them as well as the procedures to follow. In reality, we are actually under the same laws that would pertain to every other locality of the state unless otherwise spelled out by a local ordinance. We are not governed by ordinance but rather by registered regulations that are approved by the board of visitors. These regulations are not passed into law but are guided by the state agency by which they might be adopted. To my knowledge, the board of visitors has never moved on the issue. Therefore, a person may openly carry a weapon on the campus as long they do not brandish the firearm or do anything what may be consider threatening to any citizen. We have been fortunate in the fact that we are surrounded by a society that conducts its self in a civil manner and nothing has occurred that caused any alarm. The law was brought up 3 yrs ago but the general assembly never moved to make higher institutions of learning part of the exception for "no firearms" law. - The Va. Campus Law Enforcement Assoc. is again reccommending to our representatives that the matter be revisited and that all state funded school become part of the existing law which deals with all school grounds up through high-school. The law is more than adaquate to accept colleges and would only require a minor ammendment. We'll keep our fingers crossed that it happens this time.--If you need anything further, don't hesitate to let me know. -------------
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 5:57:07 PM EDT
I understand the shooter was a Nigerian student. If he was in the country on a non-immigrant visa,I think he was already violating the law possesing the pistol.
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 6:18:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2002 6:19:02 PM EDT by robbyd]
Originally Posted By captainpooby: I understand the shooter was a Nigerian student. If he was in the country on a non-immigrant visa,I think he was already violating the law possesing the pistol.
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If politicians and the general public we're logical, they could deduce from this that all the laws in the world did nothing to stop this man, since he was violating (a few?) of them already. For some reason I'm not really all that hopeful in this respect. [rolleyes] Robby edited to fix spelling errors
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 6:26:24 PM EDT
robbyd- 18.2-308 O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property. So, if it's a private college you're screwed. VT and W&M are both public, so... Possession of firearms of any kind, concealed or not, is prohibited at W&M by campus regs and at every other school I've seen. It doesn't limit it to "resident students", but rather it appears to apply to all students while on campus. This is how it was at my undergrad school in PA...joe citizen could carry on campus, I could not. If VT has school regs prohibiting students from carrying guns, then you are at least risking school-level discipline if you are a student. You might still be committing trespass (by exceeding the scope of consent that the state has given you to be there), although I guess if the school's atty says that non-students can carry in the absence of any law, that would be a hard case to make against you. I can't wait for the liberal state assemblymen to start clammering about this "horrible loophole" in the law.
Link Posted: 1/16/2002 11:24:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By captainpooby: I understand the shooter was a Nigerian student.
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You are well informed. I watched my local news at 11 and they refused to mention that fact. Just some anonymous student, and quickly glossed over. Of course less murderous rampages have had students school photos flashed nationwide in the same time period (even as minors) and moved up to the top story. I seem to remember a certain hysteria about Buford Furrow - live updates, nightline changes their program, etc. But he was a different color so that changes the complexion of the story somewhat as well.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 12:54:49 AM EDT
Only one question: HOW CAME THAT THIS JERK COULD GET A GUN? a) Was he a CCW owner? b) Was he practicing Target Shooting? c) Are there in Virginia laws that allows any people to get a gun (from private or gun shop)without any check? d) Was this weapon stolen from the shooter? and out of topic: e) Was there in the campus any dam'n warden with a gun?
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 2:37:21 AM EDT
Federal law permits "foreigners" to own firearms. Va law may not, I don't know.
Originally Posted By keving67: He was also a foreign exchange student and there would be no legal way for him to get this gun anyways. Keving67
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Link Posted: 1/17/2002 5:26:11 AM EDT
As we all know, it is not guns that are the problem, it is the nuts that get them and shoot people. Valium in the water supply, dudes, valium in the water supply.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 5:28:22 AM EDT
I beleive it was a fellow student who went to his car and got his own gun and stopped the killer.
Link Posted: 1/29/2002 4:31:22 PM EDT
As I am a resident of roanoke, here is my response. I seriously doubt it will be printed. I am writing in response to the letters from the readers concerned with gun owners "packing heat" at the mall. Lately, I have noticed several negative views on gun ownership and the state granted right to carry concealed weapons. I would like to address the authors of these letters being one of those they would like to ostracize from "their" shopping centers. In Ms. Moore's letter "Gun rights are fine, but not at the mall," she states,"idiots hide behind that as their right to carry a sawed-off shotgun to the 7-Eleven." I don't think you and I live on the same planet. Do you realize those of us who are licensed, responsible CHL (that's concealed handgun liscence for those who don't know) holders are finger printed, background checked, responsible individuals? We have gone out of our way to legally possess the means to defend ourselves and our loved ones from those who might choose to do us harm. We don't carry a "sawed-off shotgun" nor would you know if we did. We are the quiet folks who don't make trouble and, honestly, my own wife doesn't know if I'm carrying half the time. If you fear us to share the same shopping center as yourself, I berate you because chances are you couldn't tell if the person next to you is armed legally or not. I may sound indignant in saying so, but you should honestly be relieved to know that some of us "gun nuts" are out there. Reason being, if you believe we are present, so does the "less than honorable" crowd. Just as your fear of attack may keep you from walking alone at night, their fear of an armed victim may protect us all. I will continue to shop at Valley View Mall in hopes that they will see the error of their ways, just as I will continue to carry my concealed firearm in accordance with the right granted me by the state of Virginia. In response to Bob Craig's letter "Gun enthusiasts, update your thinking," sir, you should do a little more research before espousing your learned opinion. The armed individual who callously struck down the staff at the Appalachian School of Law in Grundy, Virginia was apprehended by private citizens who were armed and forced him to surrender his gun before they tackled the illegally armed assailant. Perhaps if someone nearer the scene had been armed, this tragedy may have been averted. To provide a short, educational answer to your question,"how can an individual who harbors such an irrational fear of the public ever feel comfortable leaving home?," I find myself neither fearful nor uncomfortable leaving my home, yet I almost always carry my concealed handgun. I explain this action to my wife as " I would rather carry it and hope to never need it, than find myself in need of it and realize I left it at home." Liken it if you will to a spare tire in your car: chances are you will never need such an item, yet you wouldn't leave home without it.
Link Posted: 1/29/2002 4:32:10 PM EDT
I am one of those you fear. Perhaps you should see who I am in the context of my daily life. I am a college educated, respectable, loving husband and father who has thought enough of his family to provide the means for their defense should the need ever arise. Chances are I will never need to draw my weapon and you will never know who I am or if I am armed. But, that belief that I may be nearby will comfort my loved ones, needlessly worry people such as yourselves, and give those unsavory elements of society reason to think again before inflicting harm. With that knowledge, I will sleep well tonight. Gxxxxx Mxxxxx xxxx xxxxxxx Roanoke, VA 24018
Link Posted: 1/29/2002 4:35:16 PM EDT
sorry, wrong thread... toast
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