Posted: 4/23/2009 9:28:15 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ––bullseye––:
So how screwed is the USAF? Can we still compete with other countries top-of-the-lineMigs Su series? From that Red Flag video clip they said the Indian Su-33MKIs are on the same level or somewhat better then the current F-15. But it seems that counties that can't afford Western aircraft and have to buy Russian also can't afford to have their pilots train enough to best the Western nations. |
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Wonder if they will be able to reopen the production in 4 years again or if it will be too much $$ to keep the tooling around. The B-1 bomber survived Carter cancelling the program. Redesigned from the B-1A that was cancelled to the B-1B that was resurrected under Reagan. |
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Wonder if they will be able to reopen the production in 4 years again or if it will be too much $$ to keep the tooling around. The B-1 bomber survived Carter cancelling the program. Redesigned from the B-1A that was cancelled to the B-1B that was resurrected under Reagan. We can only hope the F-22B can be produced in four years. |
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I was thinking the exact same thing. |
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The sub-human democrats will try to destroy the tooling and every other technological accomplishment, just as they try to destroy civilization itself. Naaah, they'll follow Clinton and sell the technology to the Chinese. Or Castro, or Chavez, or Ahmanutjob. Or whoever else wants to see America destroyed. |
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Only once in the US military history, an aircraft production line was re-opened not once but twice, it was the U-2.
The US military since then, had never re-open an aircraft production line. After the 187th F-22 completes, the primary tooling will be in storage, and all subs will be dismissed. Restarting the line can and will be difficult. On the other hand, the support line will continues, to improve on the firghter, to B, C, D...varients. |
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Wait and see if the cancellation sticks through the congressional budget process, this isn't a done deal yet, and there are too many fiefdoms at stake for the Raptor to go into the good night without a bit of a battle amongst the congress critters. Lockheed Martin no longer lobbying against defense secretary's decision on F-22 By BOB [email protected] THE ASSOCIATED PRESS ARCHIVES Lockheed Martin will not spend any more time and effort trying to overturn Defense Secretary Robert Gates’ decision to halt production of F-22 Raptor fighter jets, a top company official said Tuesday. After making a vigorous case for the F-22 with Gates, other senior Pentagon officials and Congress in recent months, Lockheed plans to move on and meet its commitments for other major defense programs such as the F-35 joint strike fighter. "We had our chance to lobby this matter," Bruce Tanner, executive vice president and chief financial officer, said in a quarterly conference call with financial analysts. "We think we had a full hearing of that discussion," Tanner said. "We are disappointed by the decisions, but we will accept those and go on." Lockheed had lobbied the Pentagon and Congress for months to counter public statements by Gates and former Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon England that the Air Force did not need to buy more F-22s after pending orders for 187 planes are filled. The company even bought ads in Washington newspapers and on bus-stop benches extolling the F-22’s virtues. But, Tanner said, it’s clear "the secretary of defense, the secretary of the Air Force and the chief of staff of the Air Force and others within the Pentagon are all completely aligned on this matter from top to bottom." Loren Thompson, a staunch F-22 advocate with the Lexington Institute, said Lockheed officials realized that their company stands to benefit more than any major contractor from Gates’ defense-spending plans, including a decision to accelerate work on the F-35. "Lockheed’s senior management is realigning its programs and public pronouncements to support the Obama priorities," said Thompson, who serves as a consultant to Lockheed and other defense contractors. "Not only does it [Lockheed] look poised to benefit from those priorities, but it is determined to confound critics who say the defense industry always blocks change." Lockheed’s biggest program, the $300 billion F-35 joint strike fighter being developed in Fort Worth, is designated for $3 billion or more in additional funding in 2010 under the Gates plan to increase the pace of flight testing and production work. About 1,800 employees at Lockheed’s west Fort Worth plant work on the F-22, building its midfuselage, with final assembly in Marietta, Ga. More than 4,000 work in Fort Worth on the F-35, and that program’s work force is expected to grow substantially as production increases. Tanner, whose comments came in the quarterly conference call to discuss the company’s financial results, said it’s still "not entirely clear to us" how the Pentagon anticipates spending the additional F-35 money. Those details are likely to become more apparent when the Obama administration releases its 2010 budget sometime in May. Earnings decline Lockheed, the world’s largest defense company, said its first-quarter profit fell 8.8 percent as rising pension costs offset higher sales of computer services and defense electronics. The company said its full-year profit will be slightly higher than forecast in January. Net profit for the quarter was $666 million, or $1.68 a share, compared with $730 million, or $1.75, a year earlier. Sales rose 3.9 percent to $10.4 billion. Lockheed’s quarterly profit exceeded analysts’ estimates, while sales fell short. "Lockheed Martin posted a solid quarter during a tough economic environment, in our view proving that the company’s earnings remain a relative safe haven during these times," Rob Stallard, an analyst at Macquarie Capital in New York, said in a report to clients. Lockheed’s Fort Worth-based aeronautics division had sales of $2.78 billion in the quarter, down 1 percent. But the division’s operating profit increased nearly 10 percent to $355 million. Sales and operating profit of the electronic-systems division increased largely because of higher volumes and improved performance of Grand Prairie-based Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. The unit’s air-defense systems were touted for increased funding under Gates’ proposals. Lockheed has about 14,000 employees in Fort Worth and 2,600 in Grand Prairie. "We are disappointed by the decisions, but we will accept those and go on." Bruce Tanner, executive vice president and chief financial officer . |
| Me being a naval aviaton guy makes me enjoy other kinds of aircraft that dont have to continue their landing roll 3/4 of the runway's length, just because they have reinforced drinking straws for nose landing gear, but when they are flying, The -22 is bad ass, and will be sorely missed, hopefully it doesnt die completely. |
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I remember as a kid when it was refered to as the YF22 and my dad designed most of the optics when he was an engineer at Lockheed in the early 90's. There were three aircraft by Northrope, Lockheed and McDonald Douglas I think was the third one all competing for the .gov contract. My dad would always bring home cool brochures and photos of the Lockheed YF22 promos they gave the DOD bigwigs.
Lockheed won and my dad was very happy. Then Clinton came and my dad got Laid off. 
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The problem with such a small number of F-22's is going to be attrition loses.
USAF may end up treating these planes with kid gloves and wrapping them in cotton wool to keep as many of them available for as long as possible. They'll be like the star player siting on the subs bench if you will, while the regular guys, the F-15's keep the game going and will only be brought on for a tie breaker ,(a hot war). It's an insane decision to stop production now the development cots have been written down and further production planes would now cost $115 Mil a piece. |
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If the Dems really want to save money, they should buy some of those Ruskie aircraft.  Tangentially, you may be right. What SHOULD concern the idiots in power is that the F-35 is a significantly less capable aircraft than the F-22 and the Russians are about to field their own Raptorski. The only thing the Russians lack to build a truly capable Raptorski is the sophisticated aivionics programmes… Well, as we know, the F-35 programme has been extensively hacked and you can be sure there is a high level of HUMINT attention to getting the other parts neccessary. Even if the Sukhoi PAK-FA, the Raptorski, was only 50% as capable as the real thing, it would comfortably outclass everything in the West except the F-22. And no, the F-35 will NOT cut it as an air superiority fighter! Much of the F-22's advantages come from it's very high speed and altitude advantages, the F-35 doesn't come with a comparable performance advantage, in fact, it's significantly slower than many 4-4.5 Gen current fighters. |
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Quoted: I'll say this....our US govt spends WAY too much on defense. Way too much. But our one saving grace is our air superiority, and the F22 is the best product we've put out in years and to scrap it (if that's what's going on) is just STUPID.  Not compared to entitlement spending. |
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Originally Posted By ––bullseye––:
So how screwed is the USAF? Can we still compete with other countries top-of-the-lineMigs Su series? From that Red Flag video clip they said the Indian Su-33MKIs are on the same level or somewhat better then the current F-15. But it seems that counties that can't afford Western aircraft and have to buy Russian also can't afford to have their pilots train enough to best the Western nations. I was watching the history channel and that is pretty much what one of the pilots said. The migs were better than the US's planes in vietnam but they were not near as good as US pilots. One pilot went as far as to say if he could hand pick 12 US pilots from top gun back then and give them all migs, he would have had no problem stopping the US airforce of the Vietnam era.. |
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I'll say this....our US govt spends WAY too much on defense. Way too much. But our one saving grace is our air superiority, and the F22 is the best product we've put out in years and to scrap it (if that's what's going on) is just STUPID.
Not compared to entitlement spending.
Defense is one of the very few things they spend money on that they should spend money on. Sadly it's the only thing they are ever willing to make cuts in. One other thing they go out of their way to keep the Osprey around with all the problems it has but they get rid of the F-22!?! |
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Defense is one of the very few things they spend money on that they should spend money on. Plus, the research and experimentation that is done to advance the defense program leads to lots of other useful products and knowledge. Entitlement spending, not so much... |
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If the Dems really want to save money, they should buy some of those Ruskie aircraft. Dems want to save money LOL!!! Not quite - they want to divert money away from protecting hard working Americans who pay for everything to deadbeats who put them in office. Anti-American scumbags through and through. |
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I'll say this....our US govt spends WAY too much on defense. Way too much. But our one saving grace is our air superiority, and the F22 is the best product we've put out in years and to scrap it (if that's what's going on) is just STUPID.
Not compared to entitlement spending.
Defense is one of the very few things they spend money on that they should spend money on. Sadly it's the only thing they are ever willing to make cuts in. One other thing they go out of their way to keep the Osprey around with all the problems it has but they get rid of the F-22!?! The difference being the Osprey actually has an application in the world we're living in today. The F-22 has an application in the world of the 1980s. Anti-air tech has and is evolving to the point that manned super fighters are pointless. Stealth has been compromised on the cheap. Tracking is getting better. Why do you think the everyone is scrambling to buy cheap unmanned craft? |
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We just need an army of these critters, each armed with a SAW. |
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I'll say this....our US govt spends WAY too much on defense. Way too much. But our one saving grace is our air superiority, and the F22 is the best product we've put out in years and to scrap it (if that's what's going on) is just STUPID. We are now the nation which will cut its own nuts off.
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I'll say this....our US govt spends WAY too much on defense. Way too much. But our one saving grace is our air superiority, and the F22 is the best product we've put out in years and to scrap it (if that's what's going on) is just STUPID. Go back to DU  They have a gun board too...
Which do you think mandated by the U.S. Constitution, defense spending OR "entitlement" spending? This place is overflowing with liberal trolls! |
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I'll say this....our US govt spends WAY too much on defense. Way too much. But our one saving grace is our air superiority, and the F22 is the best product we've put out in years and to scrap it (if that's what's going on) is just STUPID. The constitution mandates defense, it does not allow for entitlements. |