Posted: 3/17/2009 4:43:20 PM EDT
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OK why did the US Military design the 45 ACP and want a new handgun?
I heard it was because of the Phillipine Inssurection? Is this true? |
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OK why did the US Military design the 45 ACP and want a new handgun? I heard it was because of the Phillipine Inssurection? Is this true? Something tells me this thread is destined for JMB greatness. Because .45 Auto Fuckin Rocks Man And the .mil didnt design it, but you already knew that, didnt you? 
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Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. 3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day. 6 Then, because of the light, God saw that he was unarmed and said, "Let there be a tool to spite all that is evil"; and there was .45 ACP |
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1 In the beginning was the 1911, and the 1911 was THE pistol, and it was good. And behold the Lord said, "Thou shalt not muck with my disciple John's design for it is good and it workith. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain."
2 "And shouldst thou muck with it, and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm." 3 And as the ages passed men in their ignorance and arrogance didst forget the word of the Lord and began to profane the 1911. The tribe of the gamesman did place recoil spring guides and extended slide releases upon the 1911 and their metal smiths didst tighten the tolerances and alter parts to their liking, their clearness of mind being clouded by lust. 4 Their artisans did hang all manner of foul implements upon the 1911 and did so alter it that it became impractical to purchase. For lo, the artisans didst charge a great tax upon the purchasers of the 1911 so that the lowly field worker could not afford one. And the profaning of the internal parts didst render it unworkable when the dust of the land fell upon it. 5 And lo, they didst install adjustable sights, which are an abomination unto the Lord. For they doth break and lose their zero when thou dost need true aim. And those who have done so will be slain in great numbers by their enemies in the great battle. a 6 And it came to pass that the Lord didst see the abomination wrought by man and didst cause, as he had warned, fearful malfunctions to come upon the abominations and upon the artisans who thought they could do no wrong. 7 Seeing the malfunctions and the confusion of men, the lord of the underworld did see an opportunity to further ensnare man and didst bring forth pistols made of plastic, whose form was such that they looked and felt like a brick, yet the eyes of man being clouded, they were consumed by the plastic pistol and did buy vast quantities of them. 8 And being a deceitful spirit the lord of the underworld did make these plastic pistols unamenable to the artisans of earth and they were unable to muck much with the design, and lo these pistols did appear to function. 9 And the evil one also brought forth pistols in which the trigger didst both cock and fire them and which require a "dingus" to make them appear safe. 10 But man being stupid did not understand these new pistols and didst proceed to shoot themselves with the plastic pistol and with the trigger cocking pistols for lo their manual of arms required great intelligence which man had long since forsaken. Yet man continue to gloat over these new pistols blaming evil forces for the negligent discharges which they themselves had committed. 11 And when man had been totally ensnared with the plastic pistol, the lord of the underworld didst cause a plague of the terrible Ka-Boom to descend upon man and the plastic pistols delivered their retribution upon men. And there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the land. 12 Then seeing that the eyes of man were slowly being opened and that man was truly sorrowful for his sinful misdeeds, the Lord did send his messengers in the form of artisans who did hear and obey the teachings of the prophet and who didst restore the profaned 1911s to their proper configuration, and lo, to the amazement of men they didst begin to work as the prophet had intended. 13 And the men of the land didst drive out the charlatans and profaners from the land, and there was joy and peace in the land, except for the evil sprits which tried occasionally to prey on the men and women of the land and who were sent to the place of eternal damnation b by the followers of John. –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– |
| Since "history" is constant state of revision (spelled CHANGE) it would be better to consider the known issues of the day and the fact that the semi-automatic firearm designs were in an infancy stage. What was known at the time was what type or caliber of cartridge was effective against the current day Zombies, AKA the Moro's. Research which I have not done, and therefore claim all this trash to be my "thinking on the subject," of historical military procurement records should indicate if the .mil of the day had a clue. I would gamble that they did, evidence the rare version of the Gregor Luger masterpiece the P'08 in .45 cal ACP of the day for testing and consideration by the aforementioned .mil. 2 cents rendered, submitted, offered in full. |
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So what did the US Military field against the Moros? Initailly Colt .38 Long Colt (slightly shorter than the .38 special) DA revolvers, .30-40 Krags, and 12 gage shotguns. Later they supplied Colt SAA .45 Colt revolvers, due to the poor performance of the .38. I think they also sent in some Colt DA .45 Colt revolvers (the New Service). Edited to add: the New Service was adopted as the M1909, probably too late for the conflict. The .38 LC performed poorly. The .45 Colt was better, but not ideal. The .30-40 Krag was not ideal either. The 12 Gage with 00 buck worked best. |
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So what did the US Military field against the Moros? Initially .38 spl Smith & Wesson Model 10 The tendency of the Moros to both wrap their bodies tightly in linen (to curb blood loss) and to occasionally be high on drugs, made them able to take a few shots from .38 revolvers and keep on coming. There are reports (I havent ever read official documents about this, FWIW) that some soldiers/units switched back to .45 colt revolvers for greater perceived stopping power. As 1909-1911 rolled around, the US trialed he new semi-auto designs against hanging cadavers (in preparation of the coming of zombies?) Some favored the .30 luger out of the P08, but history shows us that the .45 acp from a 1911 won the day/century |
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1911 was originally designed for the .38. flame away No. Earlier designs that lead to the 1911 were designed for the .38 automatic round, but these were older models; IIRC, the model of 1900, etc. The model 1905 was a .45, but it used a 200 gr bullet, not the later 230 gr of the .45 ACP. |
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IIRC, the .45's they replaced the .38's with didn't do much better against the Moro's. There were even plenty of failures with the Krag rifles they used. The .45acp was, in fact, a horrible solution to a serious problem. They noticed an improvement, which is why they went forward with it. What they used against the Moros were .45 Colt, no ACP. The .45 likely was more effective than the .30-40. The 12 Gage was best. And .38s suck. |
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So what did the US Military field against the Moros? Initially .38 spl Smith & Wesson Model 10 The tendency of the Moros to both wrap their bodies tightly in linen (to curb blood loss) and to occasionally be high on drugs, made them able to take a few shots from .38 revolvers and keep on coming. There are reports (I havent ever read official documents about this, FWIW) that some soldiers/units switched back to .45 colt revolvers for greater perceived stopping power. As 1909-1911 rolled around, the US trialed he new semi-auto designs against hanging cadavers (in preparation of the coming of zombies?) Some favored the .30 luger out of the P08, but history shows us that the .45 acp from a 1911 won the day/century How? .38 Special didn't come out until 1905 |
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So what did the US Military field against the Moros? Initially .38 spl Smith & Wesson Model 10 The tendency of the Moros to both wrap their bodies tightly in linen (to curb blood loss) and to occasionally be high on drugs, made them able to take a few shots from .38 revolvers and keep on coming. There are reports (I havent ever read official documents about this, FWIW) that some soldiers/units switched back to .45 colt revolvers for greater perceived stopping power. As 1909-1911 rolled around, the US trialed he new semi-auto designs against hanging cadavers (in preparation of the coming of zombies?) Some favored the .30 luger out of the P08, but history shows us that the .45 acp from a 1911 won the day/century It wasn't the model 10, it was a Colt solid frame swing out cylinder DA from the 1890s. It was in .38 LC, which was lengethed to become the .38 Special. The Germans upgraded the .30 Luger to 9 mm because they felt the .30 was too small. They stopped at 9 mm because otherwise they would have to change everything . . . |
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Here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_M1892
Not much differet from the Colt Army Special in .38 Special my dad used to carry. |
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Originaly developed for military trials and used in the Model 1905 Colt. The military liked the round well enough, but wanted better of the gun, went through some prototypical work, and the 1911 was born.
The .45 Colt revolver round has more beans in stock form than the ACP round. It pushed a 250gr bullet at about 900+fps with blackpowder, where the .45acp pushes a 230gr bullet at 800-850fps. |
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So what did the US Military field against the Moros? Initially .38 spl Smith & Wesson Model 10 The tendency of the Moros to both wrap their bodies tightly in linen (to curb blood loss) and to occasionally be high on drugs, made them able to take a few shots from .38 revolvers and keep on coming. There are reports (I havent ever read official documents about this, FWIW) that some soldiers/units switched back to .45 colt revolvers for greater perceived stopping power. As 1909-1911 rolled around, the US trialed he new semi-auto designs against hanging cadavers (in preparation of the coming of zombies?) Some favored the .30 luger out of the P08, but history shows us that the .45 acp from a 1911 won the day/century How? .38 Special didn't come out until 1905 Exactly, it was the .38 S&W, an even crappier round. |
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Originaly developed for military trials and used in the Model 1905 Colt. The military liked the round well enough, but wanted better of the gun, went through some prototypical work, and the 1911 was born. Between the Moros and the 1904 Thompson-LaGarde tests, the decision was to use a .45. The .45 used was designed to duplicate the standard .45 S&W round used by the US Army (the .45 S&W could be used in both the S&W top break revolvers and the Colt SAAs). Earlier Colt autos designed for calvery use were in .38 auto (which evolved into .38 Super). |
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So what did the US Military field against the Moros? Initially .38 spl Smith & Wesson Model 10 The tendency of the Moros to both wrap their bodies tightly in linen (to curb blood loss) and to occasionally be high on drugs, made them able to take a few shots from .38 revolvers and keep on coming. There are reports (I havent ever read official documents about this, FWIW) that some soldiers/units switched back to .45 colt revolvers for greater perceived stopping power. As 1909-1911 rolled around, the US trialed he new semi-auto designs against hanging cadavers (in preparation of the coming of zombies?) Some favored the .30 luger out of the P08, but history shows us that the .45 acp from a 1911 won the day/century How? .38 Special didn't come out until 1905 Exactly, it was the .38 S&W, an even crappier round. The Colt revolvers the US adopted(several variations), were in .38 long Colt, not the .38S&W round. The British used it(.38S&W) in a heavier bullet form in Enfield and Webely revolver from the 1930's until after WWII. |
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So what did the US Military field against the Moros? Initially .38 spl Smith & Wesson Model 10 The tendency of the Moros to both wrap their bodies tightly in linen (to curb blood loss) and to occasionally be high on drugs, made them able to take a few shots from .38 revolvers and keep on coming. There are reports (I havent ever read official documents about this, FWIW) that some soldiers/units switched back to .45 colt revolvers for greater perceived stopping power. As 1909-1911 rolled around, the US trialed he new semi-auto designs against hanging cadavers (in preparation of the coming of zombies?) Some favored the .30 luger out of the P08, but history shows us that the .45 acp from a 1911 won the day/century How? .38 Special didn't come out until 1905 Exactly, it was the .38 S&W, an even crappier round. No, it was .38 Long Colt. From a terminal perfomance point of view, every bit as good as .38 Special with the bullets of the day. With their bullet tech, a .38 LC (using flat point bullets) could be slightly better than the 9 mm parabellum. It took modern JHPs to turn 9 mm into a good choice. |
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Originaly developed for military trials and used in the Model 1905 Colt. The military liked the round well enough, but wanted better of the gun, went through some prototypical work, and the 1911 was born. The .45 Colt revolver round has more beans in stock form than the ACP round. It pushed a 250gr bullet at about 900+fps with blackpowder, where the .45acp pushes a 230gr bullet at 800-850fps. The army used a shorter round in their .45 Colt revolvers, one that could fit into the older S&W top break revolvers. The .45 ACP was designed to duplicate its performance. |
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IIRC, the .45's they replaced the .38's with didn't do much better against the Moro's. There were even plenty of failures with the Krag rifles they used. The .45acp was, in fact, a horrible solution to a serious problem. It is likely, in my opinion, that many of the reported failures to stop were actually failures to hit. Also, as TearsinRain implies, if the enemy did not go down after a hit from a Krag, a .45 ACP round wasn't going to stop him either. It is easy to blame a weapon or cartridge (.38 Long Colt then, 5.56 x 45 now) for deficiencies in your tactics and training. |
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OK why did the US Military design the 45 ACP and want a new handgun? I heard it was because of the Phillipine Inssurection? Is this true? The PI played a part in the new pistol situation.... The cartridge itself is simply an adaptation of .45 revolver ammo o an autoloader format (shortening, no rim, etc).... Ergo why I call it 'That bastardized revolver cartridge'.... |
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Originaly developed for military trials and used in the Model 1905 Colt. The military liked the round well enough, but wanted better of the gun, went through some prototypical work, and the 1911 was born. Between the Moros and the 1904 Thompson-LaGarde tests, the decision was to use a .45. The .45 used was designed to duplicate the standard .45 S&W round used by the US Army (the .45 S&W could be used in both the S&W top break revolvers and the Colt SAAs). Earlier Colt autos designed for calvery use were in .38 auto (which evolved into .38 Super). For those who don't know what the Thompson-LaGarde test is, read this for some info and a good chuckle. |
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So what did the US Military field against the Moros? Initially .38 spl Smith & Wesson Model 10 Fail. Colt double-action U.S. Revolver Models 1889, 1892, 1894, 1895 and 1896 in .38 Colt (many of which were later reissued as US Revolver, Model of 1901). When the .38 Colt revolvers were found wanting in combat, the Army re-issued Model of 1873 .45 Colt revolvers (so-called "Artillery" models with 5.5" barrels) and later adopted the Colt double action New Service in .45 Colt (the "Philippine" model) for limited issue to the Philippine Constabulary. Despite the combat lessons of the Philippine Insurrection, the .38 Colt Model of 1901 (ex- 1889, 1892, 1894, 1895 and 1896) was the standard revolver for the Army (except in the Philippines). After the 1904 Thompson-LeGarde pistol effectiveness testing board, the Thompson-LeGarde board recommended any new pistol be "no less than .45 caliber". That led to the development of the .45 caliber Model 1905 Automatic Colt Pistol - designed by John M. Browning, its subsequent testing, refining and adoption as the .45 caliber US Pistol, Model of 1911. |
| "And then, Man, in all his wisdom, (and lack of historical remembrance), went again to the .35 cal. bore in the 1980's, whereupon, the special forces of the US military, in most instances, deemed it important to use a round that KNOCKED THE CRAP outta the enemy, keeping a tight purchase upon their JM Browning sidearms. |