Posted: 2/17/2009 8:33:32 PM EDT
| teach soldiers to shoot w/ their elbow pointing out, parallel to the ground? |
| It maintains a "pocket" in the shoulder to keep the rifle butt consistent in place from shot to shot, theoretically allowing better accuracy. Dropping one's elbow to point to the ground eliminates said pocket & can allow the rifle to float if the caliber is big enough to have sufficient recoil to do so. |
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teach soldiers to shoot w/ their elbow pointing out, parallel to the ground? Because it works... Actually, they don't teach a perticular off-hand shooting stance, as offhand position is not part of our qualification course... Troops come to that conclusion (a) on their own, and (b) because of the (Absurdly STUPID) 'foxhole supported' qual position, which was the only standing-up position trained as part of the qual course... Remember, many support units do NO rifle training other than qual You are going to find that much of the 'whiz-bang' theoretical shooting technique that comes up in civilian CCW & carbine courses is NOT adopted by the military.... |
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teach soldiers to shoot w/ their elbow pointing out, parallel to the ground? Because it works... You are going to find that much of the 'whiz-bang' theoretical shooting technique that comes up in civilian CCW & carbine courses is NOT adopted by the military.... It sure does work... on a one way range where you know which target is going to pop up when. It does absolutely nothing for combat marksmanship, something big green was woefully behind the curve on. yak |
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teach soldiers to shoot w/ their elbow pointing out, parallel to the ground? Because it works... You are going to find that much of the 'whiz-bang' theoretical shooting technique that comes up in civilian CCW & carbine courses is NOT adopted by the military.... isnt it one of those things that certain situations will really dictate which u use? id love to see a comparison of the 2 in a few different scenarios. |
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teach soldiers to shoot w/ their elbow pointing out, parallel to the ground? Because it works... You are going to find that much of the 'whiz-bang' theoretical shooting technique that comes up in civilian CCW & carbine courses is NOT adopted by the military.... It sure does work... on a one way range where you know which target is going to pop up when. It does absolutely nothing for combat marksmanship, something big green was woefully behind the curve on. yak We don't have a 'standing up' stage on the pop-up range.... |
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teach soldiers to shoot w/ their elbow pointing out, parallel to the ground? Because it works... You are going to find that much of the 'whiz-bang' theoretical shooting technique that comes up in civilian CCW & carbine courses is NOT adopted by the military.... It sure does work... on a one way range where you know which target is going to pop up when. It does absolutely nothing for combat marksmanship, something big green was woefully behind the curve on. yak We don't have a 'standing up' stage on the pop-up range.... No but I've seen it on a KD range. I've also seen it used in the foxhole supported when the sandbags were so ripped up to be useless. yak |
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teach soldiers to shoot w/ their elbow pointing out, parallel to the ground? Because it works... Actually, they don't teach a perticular off-hand shooting stance, as offhand position is not part of our qualification course... Troops come to that conclusion (a) on their own, and (b) because of the (Absurdly STUPID) 'foxhole supported' qual position, which was the only standing-up position trained as part of the qual course... Remember, many support units do NO rifle training other than qual You are going to find that much of the 'whiz-bang' theoretical shooting technique that comes up in civilian CCW & carbine courses is NOT adopted by the military.... Actually the foxhole position is no longer part of the army rifle qualification course. We now shoot, 20rds prone supported, 10rds prone un-supported, and 10rds Kneeling. And pretty soon they are going to do away with the prone position all togther, and go to a standing un-supported. The reason for the change? We never use the prone position over here, or very rarely, its always standing or kneeling. As to the OP's post, its not "taught" but its not discouraged ethier, most units, even your rifle company's don't hit the range all that often, and when they do its usually in the conduct of live fires, or room clearing etc.. and the elbow out position works, it creates a pocket for the rifle butt, and when your wearing your IOTV and all of the associated crap, it makes it easier to shoot. 
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teach soldiers to shoot w/ their elbow pointing out, parallel to the ground? Because it works... You are going to find that much of the 'whiz-bang' theoretical shooting technique that comes up in civilian CCW & carbine courses is NOT adopted by the military.... It sure does work... on a one way range where you know which target is going to pop up when. It does absolutely nothing for combat marksmanship, something big green was woefully behind the curve on. yak We don't have a 'standing up' stage on the pop-up range.... Your About to, should be instituted this summer or late next fall. |
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teach soldiers to shoot w/ their elbow pointing out, parallel to the ground? Because it works... Actually, they don't teach a perticular off-hand shooting stance, as offhand position is not part of our qualification course... Troops come to that conclusion (a) on their own, and (b) because of the (Absurdly STUPID) 'foxhole supported' qual position, which was the only standing-up position trained as part of the qual course... Remember, many support units do NO rifle training other than qual You are going to find that much of the 'whiz-bang' theoretical shooting technique that comes up in civilian CCW & carbine courses is NOT adopted by the military.... Actually the foxhole position is no longer part of the army rifle qualification course. We now shoot, 20rds prone supported, 10rds prone un-supported, and 10rds Kneeling. And pretty soon they are going to do away with the prone position all togther, and go to a standing un-supported. The reason for the change? We never use the prone position over here, or very rarely, its always standing or kneeling. In the ARs, maybe... But until they fill those foxholes with cement, the fucking foxhole position will still be used by hard-headed NCOs who don't like the change... I know I had to do it for my record-qual just before I left for Iraq last year.... Institutional inertia is hard to break - even on things like this... I would also cite the NON-implementation of the new 'Hoppy-Skippy-Jumpy' PT Program (PRT drills) and the continued bitching by old-timers about not being able to starch the ACUs as examples.... As to the OP's post, its not "taught" but its not discouraged ethier, most units, even your rifle company's don't hit the range all that often, and when they do its usually in the conduct of live fires, or room clearing etc.. and the elbow out position works, it creates a pocket for the rifle butt, and when your wearing your IOTV and all of the associated crap, it makes it easier to shoot. Very true |
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teach soldiers to shoot w/ their elbow pointing out, parallel to the ground? Because it works... You are going to find that much of the 'whiz-bang' theoretical shooting technique that comes up in civilian CCW & carbine courses is NOT adopted by the military.... It sure does work... on a one way range where you know which target is going to pop up when. It does absolutely nothing for combat marksmanship, something big green was woefully behind the curve on. yak We don't have a 'standing up' stage on the pop-up range.... Your About to, should be instituted this summer or late next fall. Just like the foxhole stage was supposed to be gone what, a year or two ago? |
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teach soldiers to shoot w/ their elbow pointing out, parallel to the ground? Because it works... You are going to find that much of the 'whiz-bang' theoretical shooting technique that comes up in civilian CCW & carbine courses is NOT adopted by the military.... It sure does work... on a one way range where you know which target is going to pop up when. It does absolutely nothing for combat marksmanship, something big green was woefully behind the curve on. yak We don't have a 'standing up' stage on the pop-up range.... Your About to, should be instituted this summer or late next fall. A couple years ago now we stood up for pop up ranges. The guys who had been to Iraq said "You don't have a fucking foxhole in Iraq" So we did some pop up standing up. I'd say 90% of the rounds I fired in Iraq were standing up. I'm not surprised it hasn't been widely used yet though. |
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teach soldiers to shoot w/ their elbow pointing out, parallel to the ground? Because it works... You are going to find that much of the 'whiz-bang' theoretical shooting technique that comes up in civilian CCW & carbine courses is NOT adopted by the military.... It sure does work... on a one way range where you know which target is going to pop up when. It does absolutely nothing for combat marksmanship, something big green was woefully behind the curve on. yak We don't have a 'standing up' stage on the pop-up range.... Your About to, should be instituted this summer or late next fall. Just like the foxhole stage was supposed to be gone what, a year or two ago? I can't speak for wherever your stationed at (i'm guessing Fort Lewis) but every base i've been to Benning, Bragg, Leonard Wood, and Riley, all of the foxholes have been fitted with covers, and no qual I have shot in the last three years has included the foxhole position. I saw the draft document for the standing position, should be "official" this year. Also the reflexive fire courses are being taught more and more, and their is talk of making them become our "qual" I've shot reflexive fire courses at Leonard Wood, Benning, and Riley. Far better training than the Qual Course. As far as the PT program, your right alot depends on the commands desires wether or not the ignore the FM on PT, depending on who you talk to its ethier the greatest thing since sliced bread, or the stupidest thing ever. |
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I have a buddy that's been BN Recon, Force Recon, and now MARSOC for his entire 20+ years. Countless CQB courses he's been through etc. etc. and he chicken wings like a mother fucker.
He's deadly accurate though and if he enters a room and you're in it or you're out in the open within small arms range, you're DRT. I would not want to be in a gun battle with him unless he was out of small arms range and I had indirect fire. 
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teach soldiers to shoot w/ their elbow pointing out, parallel to the ground? Because it works... You are going to find that much of the 'whiz-bang' theoretical shooting technique that comes up in civilian CCW & carbine courses is NOT adopted by the military.... It sure does work... on a one way range where you know which target is going to pop up when. It does absolutely nothing for combat marksmanship, something big green was woefully behind the curve on. yak We don't have a 'standing up' stage on the pop-up range.... Your About to, should be instituted this summer or late next fall. Just like the foxhole stage was supposed to be gone what, a year or two ago? I can't speak for wherever your stationed at (i'm guessing Fort Lewis) but every base i've been to Benning, Bragg, Leonard Wood, and Riley, all of the foxholes have been fitted with covers, and no qual I have shot in the last three years has included the foxhole position. I saw the draft document for the standing position, should be "official" this year. Also the reflexive fire courses are being taught more and more, and their is talk of making them become our "qual" I've shot reflexive fire courses at Leonard Wood, Benning, and Riley. Far better training than the Qual Course. As far as the PT program, your right alot depends on the commands desires wether or not the ignore the FM on PT, depending on who you talk to its ethier the greatest thing since sliced bread, or the stupidest thing ever. Yep, Lewis... Foxholes are still open and in use here - both the sewer-pipe version, and the actual 'hard fortification' cement blockhouses.... And because they are THERE & not covered/filled, they are used... Reflexive fire hasn't really made it out to the support units yet - at least not to aviation... Makes sense, as you are 100% right - it's better training than qual... Once again, institutional inertia.... |
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Quoted: It maintains a "pocket" in the shoulder to keep the rifle butt consistent in place from shot to shot, theoretically allowing better accuracy. Dropping one's elbow to point to the ground eliminates said pocket & can allow the rifle to float if the caliber is big enough to have sufficient recoil to do so. and that my friend is why a LOT of the guys on here complain about any caliber larger than .223. ZOMG hurting.. QQ QQ.. |
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I was never taught anything about marksmanship by the Army, not even in BCT. They briefly touched on the subject a couple of times, but for the most part you're on your own if you want to learn how to shoot.
I've always been around guns, and everything I learned about basic marksmanship came from my dad's 1966 edition of the Guidebook for Marines. Lots of chicken wings in there, but it's a pretty damned good starting point for a beginner. I chicken wing like a motherfucker myself. It's comfortable for me, and I can hit whatever I aim at, so I don't really see a problem with it. All the tactical gurus can do whatever they want. I'll stick with what I know will work for me. If somebody shoots me in my protruding elbow from a thousand yards one day because of it, then that's just a chance I'll have to take. |
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Yep, Lewis... Foxholes are still open and in use here - both the sewer-pipe version, and the actual 'hard fortification' cement blockhouses.... And because they are THERE & not covered/filled, they are used... Reflexive fire hasn't really made it out to the support units yet - at least not to aviation... Makes sense, as you are 100% right - it's better training than qual... Once again, institutional inertia.... 
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