Posted: 1/23/2009 11:03:45 AM EDT
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Hi, I'm wondering if someone here can answer a question for me. I recently purchased an AR-15 and had it shipped to my local FFL here in Missouri. My FFL faxed a copy of his license to the dealer prior to shipment. Now that my FFL has received the gun, he is requiring the dealer to provide him with a copy of their FFL license. I'm not claiming to be anywhere near an expert on ATF regulations, but my limited understanding is that my FFL does not need a copy of the dealer's FFL license to (legally) transfer the gun to me. It's my understanding that dealers usually ship a copy of their FFL with firearms, but in this case the dealer refuses to do so.
Does anyone know if ATF regulations require my FFL to receive a copy of the dealer's FFL before completing the transfer? Why would the dealer refuse to provide a copy of their FFL? If I can't get this straightened out quickly, my FFL is going to ship the gun back to the dealer, and then the dealer will re-ship it back to another FFL in my area. Ridiculous! Thanks, Jimmy |
| We process four to five firearms sales and transfers EACH day. The ATF is often here and we are extreemly familiar with the firearms business. These people, who have zero understanding of Federal and Local Law, should have their licenses revoked. This is a legimitate business and these yahoos are giving it a bad name. If you disagree - cram it. Sorry, I'm angry. ––––anyone want a M4? |
| Something I have run in to and have wondered about is that some FFL's state that a copy is acceptable and others state that they require an original signature. I ran into that on a private sale where I sent the FFL but received a call and was told it must have an original signature for it to be valid. Are there two types of FFL's? |
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As someone who has undergone an ATF audit at the shop I work at...
The ATF agents durring their periodic checks generally want to see government PROOF OF ID for all aquisitions. In the case of private individuals this means a copy of a signed piece of state identification (drivers license) and in the case of an FFL this means a hard copy of the FFL. Were the rifle in my shop, it would sit there and not be form'ed-out until I got all my ducks in a row. The ATF can and will gig shops for less... -RH ETA: It is not the writen law that matters, it is how the individual agent doing an audit interprets it, and they WILL shut down your business until they sort things out for themselves. |
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I gave my FFL the FFL# of the seller before the gun was even shipped. I understand my FFL is just covering himself, but it's a shame the system is so ass-backwards that one set of unique regulations can be interpreted in several completely different ways.
I know another FFL in my city who says he'd have no problem with this transaction. My original FFL is going to talk to his ATF guy today to see if he will verify that this is okay. If he doesn't, I'm thinking of asking my original FFL to ship the gun to the other FFL within my city, instead of shipping it all the way back to the seller and then having the seller ship it all the way back to my second FFL. That way I can minimize the amount of ahipping and risk of damage. Are there any regulations against my original FFL shipping to the other FFL in the city I live in? |
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I will make this as clear as possible. The sender is NOT REQUIRED to have a Federal Firearms license. Only the Person or Company conducting the transfer on an INTERSTATE TRANSACTION must have an "FFL". PERIOD. Any conflict to the contrary is misinformed and flat out WRONG.
It's like the often technology challanged FFL holders STILL requiring a "blue ink" signed copy FAXED to them. Are you serious? E-mailed copies have been acceptable for years. I have been in the firearms sales business for 25 years and this industry and it's members are frankly more worried about "black helecopters" than they are about business. Fat guys, sitting around, talking about guns they've never owned or fired - get serious. |
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Yes,
Your Dealer needs to log your weapon in to his bound book before he can transfer it to you. Being that it was shipped from another FFL holder, he needs a copy of that Dealers FFL so he can enter all pertinent info into the bound book. Sounds like the Dealer you purchased from is a real tool... |
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Wait a second?
What happens if a Non-FFL sold you the AR, as an out of state sale? OK.......the rifle can ONLY be shipped to the FFLs address on the Lic. So, the seller asks for the buyer's FFL. and addresses the box to the buyer's FFL. The seller then takes the rifle down to the USPS and ships it off. Simple. So.......where does it say that the seller NEEDS an FFL? Nowhere. Unless, your STATE LAW will only allow FFL to FFL for out of state transactions (and I doubt it).......YOUR FFL is "Ridiculous!" Aloha, Mark PS........besides IF your dealer knows the other FFL Dealer Number..........he can still use the ATF Eazy Check to verify. https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/fflDownloadDisplay.do He doesn't need a hard copy. I suspect, that is what the seller's FFL, is trying to get your FFL, to understand. |
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Individual sale = Joe public (seller) should include a photocopy of their drivers license for the receiving FFL.
FFL sale = FFL (seller) should include a hand signed copy of their FFL for the receiving FFL. Course it's easy for all the arm chair commando's to scoff at it, it's not their ass on the line dealing with Big Brother when he wants to sniff through the bound book. If I was your Dealer, that Rifle would fucking sit until I received a return shipping label or a signed FFL hard copy or FAX from the douche that sold you that stick. |
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"Should" is NOT THE LAW.
It would be nice for the FFLs to "play together." But, that may be asking too much. Yes, I don't see what the FFL on the seller's side is being such an A$$^&*# about. However, knowing that some FFLs are very reluctant to have their FFL copies floating around.......I suspect that may be the case. Thus, just the number would do. Aloha, Mark |
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Quoted:
"Should" is NOT THE LAW. It would be nice for the FFLs to "play together." But, that may be asking too much. Yes, I don't see what the FFL on the seller's side is being such an A$$^&*# about. However, knowing that some FFLs are very reluctant to have their FFL copies floating around.......I suspect that may be the case. Thus, just the number would do. Aloha, Mark What is "THE LAW" exactly? I would suspect that if the Rifle was received from a FFL holder that ATF would certainly expect you to have that number in your bound book next to the acquisition of that firearm. What is the receiving FFL supposed to do, make one up? Tell ATF...they wouldn't send me one? Big brother conveniently puts the burden on YOU to cover YOUR ass or else they will crawl inside it. And let's make it clear...including a copy of your FFL with an out bound firearm going to another FFL is hardly floating around. The guy is dropping the ball...end of story. Unfortunately, the OP is hanging in the balance because of these stupid fucking reindeer games. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
"Should" is NOT THE LAW. It would be nice for the FFLs to "play together." But, that may be asking too much. Yes, I don't see what the FFL on the seller's side is being such an A$$^&*# about. However, knowing that some FFLs are very reluctant to have their FFL copies floating around.......I suspect that may be the case. Thus, just the number would do. Aloha, Mark What is "THE LAW" exactly? I would suspect that if the Rifle was received from a FFL holder that ATF would certainly expect you to have that number in your bound book next to the acquisition of that firearm. What is the receiving FFL supposed to do, make one up? Tell ATF...they wouldn't send me one? Big brother conveniently puts the burden on YOU to cover YOUR ass or else they will crawl inside it. And let's make it clear...including a copy of your FFL with an out bound firearm going to another FFL is hardly floating around. The guy is dropping the ball...end of story. Unfortunately, the OP is hanging in the balance because of these stupid fucking reindeer games. The law says name and address is just fine. When an FFL orders from most distributors they don't get an FFL along with the order. Some have their FFL number on the invoice, some don't. Name and address is fine if you don't have the FFL number. Of course some states might have their own additional regulations. For example, I'd never ship anything to California, even to an FFL there, because who the heck wants to take a chance with violating their rules, whatever the heck they are these days. |
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torrejon224
You ran into that problem because the Federally Licensed person is a moron and who evidently can't read e-mail or snail mail from ATF. FIVE (5) years ago ATF changed the rules concerning copies of Federal Firearms Licenses. Geeze- Louise ...when can we cull these jerks from the "Firearms Sales" legion and leave proper business to the rest of us who do it legitimately. |
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I'm here in Missouri as well. I know that the other FFL is needed to document where the gun came from.
I have a few guys with their FFL in the Saint Louis Area, if you need any help let me know and I will give you some phone numbers. Also calling around to some FFL's and asking them if they have a copy maybe a way to go. See if they will send a copy of the license or if you can just get the weapon transferred threw them. I had a Glock transferred to me and my local FFL sent me home with the copy the other FFL shipped with the gun. I got a frantic call a few hours later at dinner asking me to come back to the range and give them the copy of the FFL. The_D |
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And invoice will do, you need a name and address to log it in. Sending along your FFL is a courtesy and nice. I mean, you don't ever get an FFL from a distibutor, you get an invoice. Hell, a business card will do. As long as you have the proper info, everything is GTG.
I have never sent a photocopy of my D/L... Just my name and address, when I've done a private sale and sent it to an FFL. Some FFLs are just a bit touchy, deal with it or find another one. |
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The seller tells me they don't send their FFL with gun shipments because their ATF representative advised them not to do that. What's happening now is my FFL is getting in touch with his ATF guy to see if he will verify that it is okay for him to transfer the gun to me without having a copy of the seller's FFL. I even had a guy from ATF call my FFL on Friday and explain to him that this is okay, but that wasn't good enough for him- he wants to hear it from the ATF guy that he deals with.
I asked him about shipping the gun to another FFL in town that I know will do the transfer. He told me he can't do that- it has to go back to the original sender (the seller). Is he right about this, if he won't do the transfer, do regulations say he can't ship it to another FFL in town? My FFL is just trying to cover his ass, but I'm trying to avoid the ridiculous situation of the gun being shipped all the way back to the seller and then the seller shipping it all the way back to Missouri to another FFL. To me this adds more risk of damage to the gun through extra shipping. For those of you who have experience shipping guns, do I need to worry about this? How often are guns damaged via shipping? Is there any alternative documentation I can get to my FFL that would likely satisfy him? Someone mentioned an invoice, or checking around tow to see if someone else has a copy of the seller's FFL, I'll look into this... JH |
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Quoted:
. When an FFL orders from most distributors they don't get an FFL along with the order. Some have their FFL number on the invoice, some don't. Name and address is fine if you don't have the FFL number.. Different animal. In the case of a distributor, most will provide you with their FFL number when asked, even if its not on their invoice. I always include a copy of the invoice with the paperwork for the transfer. You don't know who you are dealing with as far as someone saying they are an FFL , without having some documentation showing where you got the weapon from. |
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Quoted:
I will make this as clear as possible. The sender is NOT REQUIRED to have a Federal Firearms license. Only the Person or Company conducting the transfer on an INTERSTATE TRANSACTION must have an "FFL". PERIOD. Any conflict to the contrary is misinformed and flat out WRONG. It's like the often technology challanged FFL holders STILL requiring a "blue ink" signed copy FAXED to them. Are you serious? E-mailed copies have been acceptable for years. I have been in the firearms sales business for 25 years and this industry and it's members are frankly more worried about "black helecopters" than they are about business. Fat guys, sitting around, talking about guns they've never owned or fired - get serious. As far as NYS, we are monitored by the NYSP, who tell dealers there ahs to be an FFL at both ends. The email copies have only been approved for about two years. I wouldn't be surprised if some non-technologically savvy low volume dealers don't realize that. Some of them may not even HAVE email accounts. |