In response to Garandman's latest posting on the subject, I thought I'd interject my thoughts on humanity and supreme beings.

Garandman's thought process in the "There is no God???" post was that there must be some "final authority".  I think, myself, that he has just demonstrated the origin of religion.

From the time human beings have been able to think, I believe they must have looked at the world around them and thought: "Why am I here?"  "What happens to me when I die?"  "Why me?"  

Human beings are social creatures.  We organize ourselves into groups, and those groups have leaders.  It is the responsibility of those leaders to keep the group safe, and fed, and well.  And it is obvious that no matter what the leaders or their followers do, sometimes they aren't capable of succeeding.  Therefore, there are greater powers than Man.

It is, however, a logical leap - a "leap of faith" - to come to the conclusion that that power greater than Man is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent "Creator of the Universe".  In fact, in the earliest recorded religions this was not the case.  Men worshipped the sun, the sea, the weather, and so on - things that had greater power than they.  Later, the gods as conceived by men were pretty much just like men in behavior, but again with far more power.  And, just like men, they could be swayed by bribes and pleading.  It is still a "leap of faith" to believe this, but not quite so large a leap.

Finally, we reach the "revealed" God.  The one who came before Abraham and said "I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless. And I will make my covenant between me and you, and will make you exceedingly numerous." The same God that appeared before Moses and said "Thou shalt worship no Gods before me."  This is the God that is the foundation of three distinctly different major religions and innumerable subsets thereof.

(cont'd)
Many have said that science is the religion of the atheist.  Maybe so.  In both cases there is a requirement of a belief in "first principles" - things that are just accepted as unproveable fact, based on the observations of how the world and the universe seem to work.  The difference, I think, is that science is based on [i]evidence[/i], and religion is based on [i]faith[/i].  

Science is amenable to change (albeit sluggishly), if you can demonstrate error in a hypothesis, or bring some new observation that cannot be explained by current theory.  Religion is far less amenable to change - after all, those who run the Church promote themselves as the messengers of God on Earth.  God wouldn't [i]lie[/i] to them or [i]through[/i] them, would He?  

Still, religions do change, else we wouldn't have dozens of ostensibly "Christian" sects, would we?  Each convinced that their version of the "truth" was the one and only one.  Same for Judaism and Islam.   Not to mention Hinduism, Buddism, and all the other "-isms".  

The point is, I cannot make that "leap of faith" necessary to believe that there must be a supreme being out there that requires my worship or it will banish me to eternal damnation.  Instead, if there is a God, creator and shaper of the Universe, I find it incredible that he would give a rat's a** about me or any other human being, given the vastness of the universe that we can observe.  On a cosmic scale, we're insignificant.  

I can, however, believe that the universe is orderly, and has rules that we can figure out by observation and experimentation.  So far, we've done pretty well at it.  Why do these laws exist?  I have no idea.  They're just the way this universe is.  If they weren't we wouldn't be here, or at least we wouldn't look like we do now.  The [i]why[/i] of it isn't important to me, the [i]what[/i] of it is.

Flame suit ON!  

Very well put KBaker....

I agree with all of what you have said however I go one step further....I guess opposite of the religious types..I take as you put it " a leap of faith" that in the end there is not god and that all will be explained.  So you are an agnostic while I am athiest.


I do not think that you should need a flame suit as nothing you have said is insulting...mind you I think you should still keep it on...... :)

Psalm 82
6
[1] I said, "You are gods, And all of you are  sons of the Most High."

That statement is inherently subjective (as are humans) regardless of what earlier humans believed as we have no basis for measuring the accuracy/misplacement of their beliefs.

Further, since humans have inferred religion in many different ways even from the same source material does not ensure every religion being "wrong" (loosely termed...and I agree the definition of such could be a point for a whole new thread).  There still is a logical possibility (Vegas odds aside) for one religion to be "right."  The possibility for no religions to be "right" also exists. And the possibility for more than one religion to be "right" goes down dramatically as religions differ.  And then there are religions that teach that there isn't so much a "right" and "wrong" and by "lowering" their definition, they meet that goal.

As a side note, if a "leap of faith" was by itself a "logical step," then it would cease to be faith.  The very nature of many types of religion are based upon a "non-logical" step of faith first. And only after that first step of faith would one receive personal proof that could fit into a logical thought process.

And I didn't even address the main point of your post...(gotta get to work)

(sigh)

I'll see it when I believe it.

"Because"

I sent this to another friend from this board by e-mail, and thought it appropriate here.



[i]When it comes to air, you don't REALLY understand how a colorless, odorless gas can be EXACTLY what you need to breathe. Yet, I am CERTAIN it is your desire to continue breathing, in spite of this.

Nor do you (or any of us) REALLY understand the emotion of love. yet you seek to be loved, as do I.

You do not see or fully understand that "force" which keeps the planets in orbit, or the stars in line,  yet you admire the stars often. And are thankful for this "invisible force."

You cannot see and understand what ultimately causes  a seed to sprout to life, or a plant to perform photosynthesis to stay alive,  yet you enjoy the spring daffodil as much as I do.

You expect your pencil to remain on your desk, even tho the gravitational force that keeps it there is unseen, and ultimately not fully known. You will continue in this confidence, placing a pencil on your desk, till the day you die. As will I.

ONLY when it comes to God does your inability to see Him, touch Him, and fully comprehend Him inhibit your ability to believe in Him, or reap His benefits.

So our standards of proof really only differ in one major area - God. God is unseen, but NOT unknown. God cannot be fully comprehended, but is NOT beyond our abilities to grasp, at least in part.

Obviuously, you already exhibit plenty of "faith." All you need do is ask him for the faith necessary to believe in Him - those that come to Him he will NEVER cast away.[/i]

Either way it's a win-win situation. If you live by the principles set forth in most religions, you will live a better life. If you practice love for your fellow man, have patience, acceptance, loyalty, and faith, your life will be the better for it. In the end, when you die, if it turns out that there is no afterlife and your atoms are merely scattered into the void for reuse by a rock, or another living being, you won't know the difference. So it doesn't really make any difference in that sense.

Personally, I choose to believe and I have faith that I will have an afterlife through my belief and faith in Jesus Christ. This is how I was raised and this is how I will raise my children. At the same time, I do have an engineering background and I do require proofs as they apply to the material world. But spirituality and the material world are distinct things. I do not require the same proofs in regard to spirituality because they do not apply. For me, faith is enough.

There is no requirement that scientific method and faith are mutually exclusive. This is a restriction we place upon ourselves.

I'm the last person to try to force any kind of belief on anyone but try to "prove" this paradox through science. How can you get Something from nothing, when nothing by its very definition is something that does not exist. There is only existance. There is no  state of existance as "Nothing". There is no beginning and no end. There only is being. A cold dark void is still a definable state of existance. The current and only provable state of the universe is balance, function and creation. Random chance is a myth. Science has already 'proven' that the universe is much younger than it "should" be if left to chance. And the very fact that random chance can be calculated should point you in the direction of Creation/Grand Design over jumbles of loose molecules bumping together to form life, Look up "Fractal Geometry".

You don't have to believe in any kind of deity, but you can't deny the being process. Religions just so happen to call this process, God.

Very true.  However, many religions - fundamentalist Christianity in particular - requires a [i]belief[/i] in God in order to enter the Pearly Gates.  Merely following the rules is insufficient.  I'm sorry, but I can't make that leap, though the principles by which I live my life are very close to those espoused by Christianity.To some extent you are correct.  However, there are places where fundamentalist faith and science are at loggerheads.  Resolving those issues is essentially impossible.  Human beings seem to be "blessed" with the ability to believe three mutually exclusive ideas simultaneously.  Before breakfast.

I don't need "proof", it's OK with me that things are just the way they are.  I accept the mystery in life and am quite comfortable with it's existence.  God is an unecessary concept in my life.  If *you* need it, fine, but don't assume I do, or try and shove it down my throat.

By chance are you a "Jehovah's Witness" congregation member??

Hey - who is holding a gun to DScott's head????

Darnit - how many times have i told you guys not to do that??

DScott-

If YOU are choosing to read a thread that is CLEARLY labeled "God" then theh ONLY one forcing you to do ANYTHING is YOU.

[rolleyes]

If anything, YOU are forcing those of us  who WANT to discuss God to read about YOUR atheism.

[rolleyes]

Yes, but perhaps there is nothing that really needs to be resolved? You cannot apply scientific method to faith, just as you cannot apply faith to the material world and expect the scientific community to take you seriously. Those who demand scientific proof that an afterlife exists are totally off-track because it requires faith, not proof.

edited: Man, these quotes in a quote are a real PITA.

Nope!  A former Methodist, which from what I can tell is a little like being a Baptist.  And since the Baptists forbid sex standing up (it might lead to *dancing*), I couldn't abide by that.  [:)]

Not to make this more of a game than it already is, here's a clue:

"Stop thinking, and end your problems."
                                                              —Lao Tzu

Any relation to Sun Tzu? Like the lazy uncle in their family that  no one liked to talk about??/ [:D]

First, can you be honest and admit that you would love nothing more than to convert someone to your beliefs?  Isn't a basic tenet of your faith to proselytize?

Second, I'm not an atheist.  I know for you it's black-or-white, all-or-nothing in this belief game.  For some of us, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy".

Third, if you discuss these things in a public forum, expect all sorts of reactions.  Do you ever suspect people just like to pull your chain just to see you react?  A bit Pavlovian there, too, wouldn't you say?  Ring! Ring!

i want to make some money.
i will sell a product that may or may not exist...i'll call it "God".
my clients will never see my product, so i will need a gimick, something that will make them NEED my product...
i'll call it faith. that, coupled with my client's fear of death, fear of a meaningless life, will combine to create a market for my product.
my product will provide the following:
peace in my town, peace of mind, and peace of...of...well, i'll call it a soul! yeah, that's it! i will convince my clients that they each have one, and that if they don't believe me, then my product won't work for them! not only that, but i'll fool them into believing that they will all burn forever if they refuse my product! think of the savings in advertising alone! its like a toy that requires a battery! if there is no faith in my product, or the soul that it gave them, then they will not get to use my product!
NO money back guarantee here, folks! you are free to stop subscribing to my product at anytime, at your own peril, however! (burn, burn, burn!)
this is the best part: i will require weekly "tuning" of my product, at a charge for the service of course! if you start to lose "faith" in "God", then you will have to pay me...every Sunday let's say, to remind you that you must have faith in it, that no other avenue towards my product is viable.
there, now doesn't it all seem fair? you need my product, but that's not enough for it to work for you. you also need faith that my invisible, non-secular, mystical, untouchable, unfeel-able and all powerful tonic not only exists, but that MY cure-all tonic is the one, and no other tonics will "cure" your soul. after all, why pay me? right? BUT it doesn't end there boys and girls! nope! you also need to let me get involved in your personal lives, your deeds, even your thoughts for my product to work fully. BUT, i don't do this for free! you must relinquish any and all evil moneys to MY coffers, or i may not be here to reafirm your faith in the future! if all goes well, i plan on de-bunking all commonly held notions of life-as-we-know-it. i'll make up all kinds of things that fart in the face of common sense, you see, i must convince my clients that we didn't come from animals at all, this way, it is easier to grasp that we all came from one couple, and that inbreeding led us to our great present and at the same time, it shows why my product doesn't work on animals.
sounds like a business plan to me...

DAMN IT! after some research, i discovered that my idea has not only been produced, but it is pattented, and guarded jealously from copiers.

You know how it is with these large extended families... there's always one or two that no one likes to talk about! I know I get that feeling myself at times.  You?  [:)]

Actually, NO. its NOT my job or desire to convert anyone. That is God's job alone. My job is to spread the word. So, in essence, I complete my mission with every post.



Who you callin' "Horatio?" [:D]



It was YOU, sir, that complained of being "forced" to beleive something - when you were CHOOSING to read a thread clearly labeled as being about God.. Like you say - expect ALL KINDS of reactions [}:D]

"Methink thou doest protest too loudly."

fatty, you need to lighten up a little (no pun intended).

Religion and spirituality are not one in the same. Sure, some have used religion to their own ends, but that does not in any way take away from the underlying message.

Using your own "business model" analogy, considering removing the middle-man and going directly to the source.

That sentiment (sans the rats posterior comment [:D] ) is actually echoed in scripture.

"what is man that you are mindful of him? Or the son of man, that you visit him?"

-- Psalms

Compound that with the understanding that God sent His Only Son to die for mans sins to reconcile sinful man back to God...

And should you ever come to beleive that there IS a God, and that He cares IMMENSELY for you, then you (and I) will realize our HUGE debt of love and grattitude we owe this God.

that's f---ing funny!



whoah! you tell your clients what you want, i'll tell mine what i want! if they hear stuff like that, they won't pay me for my "eternally necessary" service! it would shake the very foundation of my company! then where would my shareholders be??? nah, you're gonna burn, burn, burn! you can still redeam yourself though, i'll send a couple of my...my..."bretheren" to your door to try and save you ~ the first time is free, after that, it's the collection plate for you!



WHAT? that's sacrelidge! how do you expect me to keep living in this huge stone and wooden mansion, only working one day a week? just how do you expect i do that? no, MY product is the only product, and you start with your "spirituality" nonsense again, our companies may have to go to war, clearly the thought of an eternal bon-fire hasn't scared you into submitission. perhaps a real bon-fire in the town square may bring you to my side! [}:D]

It used to be that there HAD to be a god, because there was no other way to explain why there is a sun, or why it rains.
Then science came along and explained those things, and many others.
But Man still found a god to be quite useful, so Man decided to keep him around for a while.

Fatty, are you a sales manager for Apple? he he

What I REALLY wanna know is...

"Why does there have to be a Major-Murphy??"

[}:D]


he he he

[:D]

Because I'm such a sweet fellow.
The clouds part for me, and birds begin singing, whenever I greet the day.
All children and dogs like me.
My commanding presence, integrity and bearing inspire all of Mankind to aspire to the greatest heights of achievement.
Women find me irresistable.

You asked. [:)]

That sounds WAY too much like a John Denver song.

You aren't "Rocky Mountain High" are you????

[:D]

I always had you pegged as a big John Denver fan, garandman.
[:)]

[:D] better than "rocky cocaine" high!

...and what's wrong John Denver's music???

Who said there's anything wrong with John Denver?
Oh, I get it.
If garandman's a fan....

Actually, I do kinda like John D. Easy to play on the gee-tar.

it was your "sunshine on my shoulders" description of yourself that made me LOL.

[:D]

I shouldn't do this but...

John Denver beleives there is a God. Now.

[}:D]

Of course he does, he's already met him.
[size=6]George Burns.[/size=6]
[img]http://www.theooze.com/images/article_images/mov1.jpg[/img]

Actually, Burns was just a "stand in" for God.

At the time, the real God was too busy keeping that old fossil Burns alive to do the movie Himself.

[:D]

Oh, what the hell... BTT

[:D]

Back to KB's question -

"Why must there be a God?"

[b]Answer: because Lincoln Logs demand it. [/b](Remember "Lincoln Logs" the toy bilding components in a barrel?)

Imagine you were to dump out the Lincoln Log barrel (with its hundreds of pieces) , oh, say 900 billion times.

Do you imagine even ONCE they would fall to the floor and form a house? No reasonable person ever would.

Now, in the observed world, we have these scientific laws - the law of gravity, the laws of thermodynamics, literally dozens of them.

Every single day we see these laws operating, at a FAR GREATER level of complexity than our imaginary lincoln Log house.

While our "random" Lincoln Log house doesn't even have a 1 in 900,000,000,000 chance of happening, these scientific laws, with a MUCH LESSER probability, happen every single day.

[b]SOMEONE/THING had to intelligently design nature to operate under these laws.[/b]

Man is not capable of making that happen.

Hence, God.

I know that won't convince anyone, and somebody will come along and fixate on some inane part of my explanation in an effort to discredit it, but there you have it.

The childs toy Lincoln Logs PROVE the existence of a God of some sort.

garandman,

You do well in supporting the obvious - that God exists.  But at some point doesn't is seem like you're trying to explain "red" to someone who has been blind since birth?  

OH, this is where garandman is hiding…I guess he got tired of looking stupid in the topic he started. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=81028&page=1[/url] [rolleyes]

-Velveeta

Sight and blindness, and the lifting of the blindness and the restoration of sight are God's purview alone, as well as the timing of those events.

It would be a shame if at the moment of restoration of sight, the truth wasn't there to salve the eyes of the blind.


Wouldn't it???

These are my "friends." I owe them.

I'm not gonna hafta get a TRO for you, am I???? I mean, how am I gonna explain to the cops that a "Processed Cheese" is stalking me??

[}:D]

Which then begs the question:  Where did God come from?  All I do is eliminate one question from the list.  

C'mon, think about it:  If it takes God to create the Universe, then where did He come from, and if He always has existed, then why can't the Universe have just sprung into being, sans God?

It's a nice explanation for the unexplainable, but that doesn't make it correct.  It simply makes more sense for me that this universe has natural, understandable, definable laws that have lead to life on planet Earth (and most probably elsewhere), than it is for me to believe some great Creator built all of this for little ol' us.

Sorry, but the Lincoln Log theory is not convincing.

When you make ignorant posts like:


And run away when the facts get too much for your little mind to bear then I guess your alternative is to get a TRO.  Well maybe you could admit you were wrong and apologize, but I won’t hold my breath for that.    You probably do the same thing in real life.  Start some sh!t with a man then run behind the skirt of the first cop when things get rough. [:D]  We have a word for that where I am from… COWARD.  

Keep running, I am right behind you.  

-Velveeta

That's not what he told [b]me![/b]

OK, your right. The fact that Bill Gates is the FORMER president and CEO at Microsoft (and still, I beleive, the majority shareholder) disproves my entire argument that God exists.

Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill.

OK, Gates successor is the final authority at Microsoft. (Just ask anyone who works at Microsoft if that is true or not) I apologize for an honest error in my facts. Do you feel vindicated now???

Yes, but acceptance of the FACT of the existence of God is a HUGE and FOUNDATIONAL step in teh process. Once you accept the FACT of the existence of God, then you have a solid foundation to build on, from which to begin attacking the hundreds of other questions that follow.



The observed universe shows that chaos ALWAYS (in the long run) proceeds out of order. NEVER the reverse. The Lincoln Log experiment validates this - that the observed Laws of nature (which are the very defintion of order) DEMAND an organizing force (aka God) to keep them functional, and NOT degerating into chaos like everything else around them.. The Lincoln Log experiemnt shows that left to chance, and without an organizing force, nature will ALWAYS generate disorder. Since we observe these things to be true, to beleive that that nature "just sprang into being, sans God" requires MORE faith than I am capable of, and renders the proponents of such a theory to be NOT scientists, but faith-based religionists. Scientists deal with the observed. To think that nature "sprang into being" violates observed phenomemon.

Where God came from? Well, I beleive that question to be beyond the limits of this forum.

(cont.)



If it is an explanation, then it is a theory which you should NOT discard so easily. Reason, logic and science ALL DEMAND that you explore it further. "An explanation which may not be correct" is a fairly good definition of a "theory." Scientists investigate theories - NOT reject them out of hand.



And based on the Lincoln Log experiemnt, your beleif in those Natural Laws, which both violate the Lincoln Log hypothesis/experiemnt, AND observed phenomenon SHOULD peak your curiousity, NOT inspire the comment "it makes more sense for me." That is the comment of the religionist, NOT the scientist. The scientist DOES NOT fear where truth may lead him. IMO, you appear to fear that very thing.




It illustrates the love of God for worthless man. But its NOT like God doesn't get anything out of the deal. God did all this for us. We in turn SHOULD give our entire lives to Him, declaring His glory, spreading His Word and obeying His commands as given in His word. God gave His all (His Son Jesus) and in turn we give our all - our entire lives. Its a fair deal, really. or at least God sees it that way.

Honestly, if your objection to all this is that it doesn't make sense that God would love us that much, that is GREAT news.



While not convincing, it does (or should) cause you to explore further. Scripturally, the unsaved man has a natural fear of the truths of God. I had it too. Ever person that has ever recevied Christ as Saviour has had that fear. But they got past it. You can too.

We are just talking about a Christian god, right?  What about the millions of Jews- does their god count as well?  The billions of Hindus?  Do their gods matter here?  The three billion Muslims?

Which god is the "correct" god?  Are we limited to just *one*?