[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Marines: Using your Own Gear (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 12/16/2008 6:20:12 PM EDT
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Quick question:
Let's say I have a decent AR with a SOPMOD & T-1 Micro with Larue rail that I found in a river after I dropped it there a while back... Could I install this on my rifle if I was in the service? I'm guessing probably not, but the thought of having to shoot down iron sights is discomforting. |
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Quick question: Let's say I have a decent AR with a SOPMOD & T-1 Micro with Larue rail that I found in a river after I dropped it there a while back... Could I install this on my rifle if I was in the service? I'm guessing probably not, but the thought of having to shoot down iron sights is discomforting. Depends on the unit. Trust me though, if you join you won't have any discomfort using iron sights. |
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Go in country with the Marines and you will most likely be issued an m16a4 with KAC rails and an ACOG. If you wanted to throw the t1 up their, you most likely wouldnt have any problems. But you can forget the sopmod or Larue rail. Can I get a one-time trip in country with the Marines and accidentally lose my weapon in a place I can find it later? |
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Quick question: Let's say I have a decent AR with a SOPMOD & T-1 Micro with Larue rail that I found in a river after I dropped it there a while back... Could I install this on my rifle if I was in the service? I'm guessing probably not, but the thought of having to shoot down iron sights is discomforting. Depends on the unit. Trust me though, if you join you won't have any discomfort using iron sights. Although you will experience much discomfort learning how to use iron sights. . . the Marine Corps way. |
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In a nutshell, no. You won't be swapping your own upper on in a line unit, that's for sure. Adding an optic, maybe, that'll depend on your chain of command. SF/Seals and what not generally have a lot more freedom than an Infantryman, but even they will have some limits placed on them.
You have to realize that if we allowed every soldier to customize their weapon to their heart's desire, we'd have nearly every Soldier, Marine, Airman, and Sailor showing up with the most "TAPCO Fucked" weapons you've ever seen in your life. Sure, the occasional soldier will pop up with a professional quality rig, but a lot of them will run off base to the first gun store they can find and buy the cheapest stuff they can find that looks the way they want it to look. |
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And for Christ's sake, don't join the Military because of guns. There a million good reasons to serve, but "guns" as the primary one will most likely leave you very disappointed.
The Military is a very controlled social institution by necessity. Junior Enlisted are not in the position to make decisions about modifying weapons (PVT = Not paid to think (not a knock, just reality)). Hell, junior Officers aren't in a much better position in regards to weapon's mods either. You better have some serious brass behind you if you want to run your own upper. Depending on your chain of command, you get a little more leash when deployed. That might mean putting on your own optics and accessories, maybe even swapping out stocks and grips; but I haven't heard of a line unit (non-special forces) letting people just put their own uppers on. You have to remember that the Army and Marine Corp. have been at this for a very long time and generally have a pretty system in place. The gear may not always be cutting edge, but it's proven and it generally is much higher tech than anything anyone else is using (on a large scale, i.e. militaries, police, etc.). |
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Good thread guys, thanks for the Q&A session. I have always wondered what is allowed and what isn't. It sounds like the military is allowed more freedom than I thought they would have with regard to optics and magazines at least. Give me an SR-15 E3 and I'll be quiet. |
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Good thread guys, thanks for the Q&A session. I have always wondered what is allowed and what isn't. It sounds like the military is allowed more freedom than I thought they would have with regard to optics and magazines at least. And from what I hear, at least in the Army, you can pretty much get the optic you want through the supply channels if your CoC is on the ball. That means ACOGs, EOtechs, Aimpoints, etc. |
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Good thread guys, thanks for the Q&A session. I have always wondered what is allowed and what isn't. It sounds like the military is allowed more freedom than I thought they would have with regard to optics and magazines at least. And from what I hear, at least in the Army, you can pretty much get the optic you want through the supply channels if your CoC is on the ball. That means ACOGs, EOtechs, Aimpoints, etc. true, our CoC hooked us up in the triangle of death, We even accidently blew up two buffalo's 
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Good thread guys, thanks for the Q&A session. I have always wondered what is allowed and what isn't. It sounds like the military is allowed more freedom than I thought they would have with regard to optics and magazines at least. And from what I hear, at least in the Army, you can pretty much get the optic you want through the supply channels if your CoC is on the ball. That means ACOGs, EOtechs, Aimpoints, etc. true, our CoC hooked us up in the triangle of death, We even accidently blew up two buffalo's
Doing Haji's job for him?
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Good thread guys, thanks for the Q&A session. I have always wondered what is allowed and what isn't. It sounds like the military is allowed more freedom than I thought they would have with regard to optics and magazines at least. And from what I hear, at least in the Army, you can pretty much get the optic you want through the supply channels if your CoC is on the ball. That means ACOGs, EOtechs, Aimpoints, etc. I don't support the idea of every private wanting an ACOG, maybe 1 or 2 AT most issued to two troops in one team. ACOGs are awesome sights, but I don't think it would be a good idea for every joe to be running around with ACOGs in MOUT operations, CCOs are better for that type of stuff. ACOGs are great for NCOs though because they can better observe things and direct the fire of their team, squad or platoon. I dunno, this is just a opinion from a guy who used to be a fire team leader. |
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Good thread guys, thanks for the Q&A session. I have always wondered what is allowed and what isn't. It sounds like the military is allowed more freedom than I thought they would have with regard to optics and magazines at least. And from what I hear, at least in the Army, you can pretty much get the optic you want through the supply channels if your CoC is on the ball. That means ACOGs, EOtechs, Aimpoints, etc. true, our CoC hooked us up in the triangle of death, We even accidently blew up two buffalo's
Doing Haji's job for him?
actually it was the haji's that did it. We're 21B and that was our job was to find I.E.D's and we found them. |
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In regards to the SEALS, a team member there told my last weekend that a lot of the guys are using PMAGs. He still uses standard issue. His rig is a 10.5" M4 with an Eotech. He said if he shoots a body in the circle, they are screwed. Wat?  Meaning the circular reticle 
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In regards to the SEALS, a team member there told my last weekend that a lot of the guys are using PMAGs. He still uses standard issue. His rig is a 10.5" M4 with an Eotech. He said if he shoots a body in the circle, they are screwed. Wat? Meaning the circular reticle
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In regards to the SEALS, a team member there told my last weekend that a lot of the guys are using PMAGs. He still uses standard issue. His rig is a 10.5" M4 with an Eotech. He said if he shoots a body in the circle, they are screwed. Wat? Meaning the circular reticle 
He's saying anything in that red circle is going to be deadified. |
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In regards to the SEALS, a team member there told my last weekend that a lot of the guys are using PMAGs. He still uses standard issue. His rig is a 10.5" M4 with an Eotech. He said if he shoots a body in the circle, they are screwed. Wat? Meaning the circular reticle You didn't perhaps meet this SeAL at a gun show, did you?
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In regards to the SEALS, a team member there told my last weekend that a lot of the guys are using PMAGs. He still uses standard issue. His rig is a 10.5" M4 with an Eotech. He said if he shoots a body in the circle, they are screwed. Wat? Meaning the circular reticle http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0S0206kEUlJmU4BeXyjzbkF/SIG=12t6nbii9/EXP=1229611812/**http%3A//www.nowar.hu/eotech/images/stories/eotech-reticle-on-the-range.jpg He's saying anything in that red circle is going to be deadified. Ohhhhhh... 
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In regards to the SEALS, a team member there told my last weekend that a lot of the guys are using PMAGs. He still uses standard issue. His rig is a 10.5" M4 with an Eotech. He said if he shoots a body in the circle, they are screwed. Wat? Meaning the circular reticle You didn't perhaps meet this SeAL at a gun show, did you? No its one of his good friends from HS. The SEAL he is talking about is legit. |
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Some personal gear is allowed. Some is even encouraged. Be advised, you will have a list of items you will be under orders to deploy with. If you don't have room in your seabagag and pack for extras, then so be it. You'll have to do without.
As far as weapons go, the USMC WANTS to buy the PMAG for general issue. I've never heard of a Bn policy of "no PMAGs", but then again, I'm not a 0311 anymore. That said, infantry battalions are pretty cut-and-dry about what you can and what you can't use in the field. SNCOs and officers are allowed more latitude in what they equip their weapons with. I've known lots of Marines from L/Cpl up to Maj. who used Magpul and Vltor buttstocks, PMAGs, non-issue slings, non-issued optics (Aimpoints, Eotechs, and ACOGs), non-issued grips like Ergo Grips, Houge, and Magpul MIADs. Now, all that stuff is pretty common. In fact, you should see the COTs items that are being purchased before a unit deploys with the "slush funds" available now. Unreal. If it puts anything in perspective, a few Marines I knew wanted to put single point sling adapters on their M4s, but couldn't because that involved pulling the lower receiver extension (buffer tube) off, and required a trained armorer to restake the locking collar to the plate. Did it happen? Yes. Depends on the unit, and "who you knew". The Annex sold GG&G adapters that screwed on, and didn't require any mods to the weapon. I saw more than a few Marines use those. In a nutshell, it sort of depends on your unit, your chain of command, and your rank. You'll have available to you some fantastic gear that we could only have dreamed of a few short years ago, so your question may end up being moot. It's not at all like it used to be. |
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Some personal gear is allowed. Some is even encouraged. Be advised, you will have a list of items you will be under orders to deploy with. If you don't have room in your seabagag and pack for extras, then so be it. You'll have to do without. As far as weapons go, the USMC WANTS to buy the PMAG for general issue. I've never heard of a Bn policy of "no PMAGs", but then again, I'm not a 0311 anymore. That said, infantry battalions are pretty cut-and-dry about what you can and what you can't use in the field. SNCOs and officers are allowed more latitude in what they equip their weapons with. I've known lots of Marines from L/Cpl up to Maj. who used Magpul and Vltor buttstocks, PMAGs, non-issue slings, non-issued optics (Aimpoints, Eotechs, and ACOGs), non-issued grips like Ergo Grips, Houge, and Magpul MIADs. Now, all that stuff is pretty common. In fact, you should see the COTs items that are being purchased before a unit deploys with the "slush funds" available now. Unreal. If it puts anything in perspective, a few Marines I knew wanted to put single point sling adapters on their M4s, but couldn't because that involved pulling the lower receiver extension (buffer tube) off, and required a trained armorer to restake the locking collar to the plate. Did it happen? Yes. Depends on the unit, and "who you knew". The Annex sold GG&G adapters that screwed on, and didn't require any mods to the weapon. I saw more than a few Marines use those. In a nutshell, it sort of depends on your unit, your chain of command, and your rank. You'll have available to you some fantastic gear that we could only have dreamed of a few short years ago, so your question may end up being moot. It's not at all like it used to be. ^ This. Even the Marine Corps., who for a long time practically lived off of "Army hand me downs" is getting all the new high speed gear. In the modern Army and Corps., there is very little need to worry about whether or not you can run good optics, etc. In fact, there are a lot of Soldiers and Marines out there who will tell you NOT to buy anything, don't waste your money or put your nice stuff at risk. |
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In a nutshell, no. You won't be swapping your own upper on in a line unit, that's for sure. Adding an optic, maybe, that'll depend on your chain of command. SF/Seals and what not generally have a lot more freedom than an Infantryman, but even they will have some limits placed on them. You have to realize that if we allowed every soldier to customize their weapon to their heart's desire, we'd have nearly every Soldier, Marine, Airman, and Sailor showing up with the most "TAPCO Fucked" weapons you've ever seen in your life. Sure, the occasional soldier will pop up with a professional quality rig, but a lot of them will run off base to the first gun store they can find and buy the cheapest stuff they can find that looks the way they want it to look. This Navy is also prohibited from using private owned gear on Navy weapons. |
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My brother, an 0331, was issued an M16A4 w/KAC RAS and an ACOG. Before his deployment to Fallujah, he swapped his GripPod for a VFG that I gave him for Christmas. His 3-pt sling was of his own purchase. He also carried/wore a big ass non-issued Ka-Bar on his LBV.
He did mention that a buddy of his (this is now post-deployment and stateside) removed his issue ACOG and put his own EOTech on his rifle. He was promply told by their SSgt to unfuck his weapon and put the ACOG back on there. -Dan |
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Optics are fucking fantastic but if you have an IQ over 55 the Marine Corps can and will teach you how to shoot and hit with irons. My Chief Instructor at Scout/Sniper school told us they could teach a monkey to shoot; the principles of marksmanship have been around for ages and are applicable to almost any projectile weapon.
Jay |
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Good thread guys, thanks for the Q&A session. I have always wondered what is allowed and what isn't. It sounds like the military is allowed more freedom than I thought they would have with regard to optics and magazines at least. And from what I hear, at least in the Army, you can pretty much get the optic you want through the supply channels if your CoC is on the ball. That means ACOGs, EOtechs, Aimpoints, etc. I don't support the idea of every private wanting an ACOG, maybe 1 or 2 AT most issued to two troops in one team. ACOGs are awesome sights, but I don't think it would be a good idea for every joe to be running around with ACOGs in MOUT operations, CCOs are better for that type of stuff. ACOGs are great for NCOs though because they can better observe things and direct the fire of their team, squad or platoon. I dunno, this is just a opinion from a guy who used to be a fire team leader. wow, I guess that makes Marine privates equal to Army team leaders... |
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Modifying your weapons in any way is not allowed. By that, I mean you can't just throw in some fancy lighter firing pin you found online or something like that, or swapping out a barrel because you have a "better one" at home. Basically, leave it alone, mechanically. Optics depend on the unit. Modifying it in non-mechanical or permanent ways, such as adding a butt stock mag pouch, different sling (I keep a one of those Blackhawk Mamba slings or whatever they're called on my issue rifle) or maybe a different/better light usually doesn't cause too big of a scene, but again it depends on your unit SOP, SNCO's, and whoever else feels like screwing with you that day. It's annoying, but consistency=dependability when you're dealing with something like running a military unit.
That's my experience with the matter. (USMCR) |
| My thoughts are anything with a Cage Code should be allowed. I do understand where they are coming from though in that alot of dumbfucks would be pimping out their rifle with cheap Chinese airsoft shit that will fail in the field and could get somebody killed or cost a mission. |
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It really depends on the command. My unit, the CO kind has made me the equivalent of the CMD Gunner, so I end up doing all the weapons training, decide what type of gear we are buying in way of the armory gear. And although it gave the 2111 a bit of heart burn, if someone was going to put something on a weapon, I had to give a thumbs.
The 2111 (armory) didn't really believe in doing "Mods" like single point adapter end plates, etc. However, since he had his Major boss tell him the Colonel Commander wanted it done, he just said Aye, Aye. So, yes it is possible, however the command has to support it because the armorer may not. |
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That's my experience with the matter. (USMCR) That really depends on your I&I views of it. When I was an I&I, I had my SMCR armor add single point end plates on all of the carbines and A4s, and authorized the purchase of various non-Marine sights. However, since I had been a gunsmith in college and put half the gear on during the week, when I couldn't get ADSW to have the armorer do it, it was no big deal. We did get a log inspection and I was told they were unauthorized mods. I told them fine, I didn't care, neither did the BN and Rgt, so they would staid on the weapons. |
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Iron sights just like the ones you would be using have been efficient enough to kill millions of Nazi's, Commie's and Terrorists for almost an entire century. There is nothing wrong with them.
ETA: Worry about becoming a Marine first, then what gadgets you can have on your weapon like 20th. |
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Some personal gear is allowed. Some is even encouraged. Be advised, you will have a list of items you will be under orders to deploy with. If you don't have room in your seabagag and pack for extras, then so be it. You'll have to do without. As far as weapons go, the USMC WANTS to buy the PMAG for general issue. I've never heard of a Bn policy of "no PMAGs", but then again, I'm not a 0311 anymore. That said, infantry battalions are pretty cut-and-dry about what you can and what you can't use in the field. SNCOs and officers are allowed more latitude in what they equip their weapons with. I've known lots of Marines from L/Cpl up to Maj. who used Magpul and Vltor buttstocks, PMAGs, non-issue slings, non-issued optics (Aimpoints, Eotechs, and ACOGs), non-issued grips like Ergo Grips, Houge, and Magpul MIADs. Now, all that stuff is pretty common. In fact, you should see the COTs items that are being purchased before a unit deploys with the "slush funds" available now. Unreal. If it puts anything in perspective, a few Marines I knew wanted to put single point sling adapters on their M4s, but couldn't because that involved pulling the lower receiver extension (buffer tube) off, and required a trained armorer to restake the locking collar to the plate. Did it happen? Yes. Depends on the unit, and "who you knew". The Annex sold GG&G adapters that screwed on, and didn't require any mods to the weapon. I saw more than a few Marines use those. In a nutshell, it sort of depends on your unit, your chain of command, and your rank. You'll have available to you some fantastic gear that we could only have dreamed of a few short years ago, so your question may end up being moot. It's not at all like it used to be. ^ This. Even the Marine Corps., who for a long time practically lived off of "Army hand me downs" is getting all the new high speed gear. In the modern Army and Corps., there is very little need to worry about whether or not you can run good optics, etc. In fact, there are a lot of Soldiers and Marines out there who will tell you NOT to buy anything, don't waste your money or put your nice stuff at risk. So much has changed since I came in. It started in the late '80s when the USMC started looking at better boots. The US Army said "that's a good idea", and pretty soon both services were funding the "speed lace" boots made with softer leather that replaced the crap that many of were issued at MCRD and Army basic. Then came the ALMAR that said we could wear whatever was confortable as long as it had a military appearance (you should have heard the greybeards froth at the mouth over that one! Then they began to figure out "hey, having good footwear is a good thing"). Then came "Air Krulak's" that were lined with Gor-Tex and thinsulate-waterproof and warm for cold weather. And they were issued, which meant they were authorized beyond a shadow of a doubt. Commandant Krulak did alot for us in the realm of personal gear. Not to mention Gor-Tex wet weather gear, which I believe was an Army initiatve. Sure beat the old rubber suits. Then came two-man Eureka! tents to replace the old shelter half system. Believe me, we were stunned. New modular sleeping bags, better packs (although I'm very partial to the old size Large Alice pack-one of the best ever designed, IMHO. Yes, I still use one) and load bearing gear integrated with better body armor. The list goes on. Now, thank God, we don't even have to polish your combat boots anymore because they are rough-out leather. Just apply some course sandpaper and you're good to go. In terms of small arms, lots of COTs items are being funded for purchase, thus saving the taxpayer a shitload of money, and the idividual Marine or Soldier years of waiting for an item to make its way through the beauracracy of formal procurement channels. Optics, GripPods, Surefire tactical lights, Slings, even ammo like Black Hills with a heavier bullet is being issued to some units. AFAIK, Mxpatriot51 has it right. Don't bother taking your $1100.00 ACOG to war, when you can get one that works just fine from the armory issued to you. If it breaks, then no loss on your part. Also, if you do end up purchasing a piece of gear for deployment, I think you can deduct it from your taxes, IIRC. The bottom line is that the Army and USMC are under new management as far as procurement are concerned. Some things are the same, but overall, the situation has improved vastly. The only Marines I know of that aren't getting the absolute up-to-the-minute gear may be some reserve units, but not by much, as they are supported by I and II MEF units, so whatever the active component gets, so too do the USMCR units (for the most part). If you end up getting deployed, and you need a piece of gear that wasn't issued to you, you can always have it sent to you. My advice is to save up your money, and have it ready for any last minute needs you might realize before you go anywhere. You're more likely to need extra soap before you need any tactical gear. |
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The Marines are starting to shoot their rifle qual course with optics. Kharn Not on the KD course we're not. Actually you are; see MarAdmin 295/08 and 529/08 142146Z MAY 08 MSGID/GENADMIN,USMTF,2007/CG MCCDC QUANTICO VA MCCDC// SUBJ/AUTHORIZATION TO CONDUCT TABLE 1 AND TABLE 2 WITH RIFLE COMBAT /OPTIC DURING ANNUAL RIFLE TRAINING AND QUALIFICATION// REF/A/MSGID:MCO 3574.2K/CMC WASHINGTON DC MCCDC/-// POC/JR MORENO/CAPT/UNIT:WTBN/NAME:QUANTICO/TEL:DSN 278-5520 /TEL:COM 703 784-5520/EMAIL:[email protected]// GENTEXT/REMARKS/1. BACKGROUND. THIS MARADMIN PROVIDES TEMPORARY GUIDANCE FOR MEETING ANNUAL MARKSMANSHIP TRAINING REQUIREMENTS UNTIL THE FIELDING OF THE NEW RIFLE COMBAT OPTIC (RCO) IS COMPLETED. SINCE THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE NEW MARINE CORPS COMBAT MARKSMANSHIP PROGRAM, DEPLOYING UNITS HAVE IDENTIFIED LACK OF SUFFICIENT TRAINING TIME TO MEET ANNUAL RIFLE QUALIFICATION REQUIREMENTS AND PREDEPLOYMENT TRAINING PREPARATION REQUIREMENTS. THE PRIMARY POINT OF ISSUE HAS BEEN THE REQUIREMENT FOR SHOOTING TABLE 1 WITH IRON SIGHTS ONLY. MANY DEPLOYING UNITS WOULD PREFER TO ALLOW MARINES TO SHOOT TABLES 1 AND 2 WITH THE RCO THEY WILL TAKE INTO COMBAT. IN ORDER TO BETTER MEET THE NEEDS OF COMMANDERS, AUTHORIZATION TO CONDUCT TABLE 1 AND TABLE 2 WITH AN RCO WILL BE TEMPORARILY AUTHORIZED. DUE TO THE FIELDING SHORTFALLS WITH THE RCO, SPECIFIC GUIDELINES WILL ALSO BE INSTITUTED TO MAINTAIN A FAIR EVALUATION FOR ALL MARINES CONDUCTING ANNUAL RIFLE TRAINING (ART) WITH REGARDS TO THOSE WHO MAY NOT BE ISSUED AN RCO. 2. IMPLEMENTATION. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, MARINES REQUIRING ANNUAL RIFLE TRAINING AND QUALIFICATION ARE AUTHORIZED TO SHOOT TABLE 1 AND TABLE 2 WITH ALL MODULAR ATTACHMENTS TO THE SERVICE RIFLE AND CARBINE TO INCLUDE THE RCO, LASER AIMING DEVICES, AND VERTICAL FOREGRIP. AUTHORIZATION WILL BE GRANTED BY THE COMMANDING OFFICER AT THE BATTALION AND SQUADRON LEVEL. ANNUAL RIFLE QUALIFICATION IS STILL REQUIRED FOR MARINES AND EXEMPTIONS STILL APPLY PER REFERENCE A. THE 0930 RANGE OFFICERS IN CHARGE OF EACH MARKSMANSHIP TRAINING SITE WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR COLLECTING AND SUBMITTING PERFORMANCE DATA ON MARINES CONDUCTING TABLES 1 AND 2 WITH RCOS TO THE MARKSMANSHIP PROGRAM MANAGEMENT SECTION (MPMS) IN ORDER TO ANALYZE THE EFFECTS IN TRAINING WITH THE RCOS DURING ART. AN UPDATED RCO TRAINING PACKAGE IS CURRENTLY BEING DEVELOPED IN ORDER TO PROVIDE ADDITIONAL INSTRUCTION ON EMPLOYING THE RCO DURING TABLE 1. THE UPDATED RCO TRAINING PACKAGE WILL SUPPLEMENT CURRENT INSTRUCTIONAL INFORMATION AND WILL SOON BE AVAILABLE AND DISTRIBUTED TO THE OPERATING FORCES. 3. REPORTING AND SCORING PROCEDURES. IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN A FAIR EVALUATION ON MARKSMANSHIP THROUGHOUT THE MARINE CORPS, TABLE 1 AND TABLE 2 SCORES WILL ONLY BE ENTERED INTO MCTFS IF CONDUCTED WITH IRON SIGHTS. IF A QUALIFICATION SCORE IS REQUIRED, DEPLOYING UNIT COMMANDERS WILL HAVE THE OPTION OF ALLOWING MARINES TO SHOOT WITH IRON SIGHTS TO EARN AN UPDATED QUALIFICATION SCORE OR SHOOT TABLE 1 AND TABLE 2 WITH THE RCO AND NOT RECEIVE AN UPDATED QUALIFICATION SCORE. BATTALION AND SQUADRON COMMANDS WILL ENTER AN EXEMPTION CODE INTO MCTFS FOR MARINES CONDUCTING TABLES 1 AND 2 WITH RCOS. THE EXEMPTION CODE COVERS AN ENTIRE FISCAL YEAR. THE EXEMPTIONS WILL ACCOUNT FOR THE ANNUAL REQUIREMENT FOR COMMANDS TO CONDUCT TABLES 1 AND 2 FOR SCORE. COMMANDS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN FIELDED THE RCO, SUPPORTING ESTABLISHMENT COMMANDS, AND ENTRY-LEVEL TRAINING SITES WILL CONTINUE TO CONDUCT TABLES 1 AND 2 WITH IRON SIGHTS AND HAVE SCORES REPORTED INTO MCTFS. PRELIMINARY STUDIES EXAMINING THE PERFORMANCE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN RCOS AND IRON SIGHTS USING ENTRY-LEVEL LIEUTENANTS HAVE SHOWN A FIVE POINT DIFFERENCE IN QUALIFICATION SCORES FAVORING THE RCOS. ALTHOUGH FURTHER COMPARISON STUDIES ARE REQUIRED TO IDENTIFY A TRUE MEASURE, THE INITIAL DIFFERENCES IN PERFORMANCE PREVENTS THE USE OF RCOS FOR QUALIFICATION SCORES WHILE MAINTAINING A FAIR STANDARD FOR ALL MARINES. AGAIN, THIS MARADMIN IS A TEMPORARY SOLUTION IN RESPONSE TO PREDEPLOYMENT TRAINING REQUIREMENTS FOR THE MARINE CORPS UNTIL RCO FIELDING REQUIREMENTS ARE COMPLETE. 4. ADDRESS QUESTIONS TO THE MARKSMANSHIP CENTER OF EXCELLENCE, DOCTRINE SECTION, WEAPONS TRAINING BATTALION, QUANTICO, VIRGINIA. TEL: DSN 278-5520 COM: (703) 784-5520. 5. THIS MARADMIN IS APPLICABLE TO MARINE CORPS TOTAL FORCE. 6. RELEASE AUTHORIZED BY COMMANDING GENERAL, MARINE CORPS COMBAT DEVELOPMENT COMMAND. // R 192245Z SEP 08 MARADMIN 529/08 MSGID/GENADMIN/CMC WASHINGTON DCI// SUBJ/CHANGE 1 TO AUTHORIZATION TO CONDUCT TABLE 1 AND TABLE 2 WITH RIFLE COMBAT OPTIC DURING ANNUAL RIFLE TRAINING// REF/A/MSGID:DOC/CMC/YMD:20070801// REF/B/MSGID:GENADMIN/CG MCCDC/YMD:20080514// POC/M.C.POPE/CWO4/UNIT:WTBN QUANTICO/-/TEL:-703-784-5520/ DSN 278-5520/EMAIL:[email protected]// NARR/REF A IS MCO 3574.2K, MARINE CORPS COMBAT MARKSMANSHIP PROGRAMS. REF B IS MARADMIN 295/08, AUTHORIZATION TO CONDUCT TABLE 1 AND TABLE 2 WITH RIFLE COMBAT OPTIC DURING ANNUAL RIFLE TRAINING AND QUALIFICATION// GENTEXT/REMARKS/1. BACKGROUND. REF A OUTLINES THE CONDUCT OF EXECUTING COMBAT MARKSMANSHIP TRAINING FOR ALL MARINES. REF B AUTHORIZED COMMANDERS TO ALLOW MARINES TO CONDUCT TABLE 1 AND TABLE 2 ANNUAL RIFLE TRAINING (ART) WITH THE RIFLE COMBAT OPTIC (RCO) AND OTHER MODULAR ATTACHMENTS, BUT REQUIRED THE SHOOTER TO BE RUN AS EXEMPT FOR ANNUAL QUALIFICATION VICE RECORDING THE SCORE IN MCTFS. THAT POLICY PENALIZED MARINES AND COMMANDERS FOR TRAINING MORE REALISITICALLY FOR COMBAT. THIS MARADMIN CHANGES THAT POLICY AND MANDATES THAT SCORES BE RECORDED IN MCTFS WHETHER THE MARINE TRAINS WITH IRON SIGHTS OR THE RCO. THIS MARADMIN CANCELS REF B. 2. IMPLEMENTATION. BEGINNING 1 OCTOBER 2008, MARINES CONDUCTING ART ARE REQUIRED TO SHOOT TABLE 1 AND TABLE 2 WITH ALL MODULAR ATTACHMENTS TO THE SERVICE RIFLE AND CARBINE FOR WHICH THEY HAVE BEEN EQUIPPED. THESE MODULAR ATTACHMENTS INCLUDE, BUT ARE NOT LIMITED TO, THE RIFLE COMBAT OPTIC, LASER AIMING DEVICES, AND VERTICAL FOREGRIP. ONCE FIRING IS COMPLETE, THE FINAL SCORES WILL BE REPORTED INTO MCTFS. A. THE 0930 RANGE OFFICERS IN CHARGE OF EACH MARKSMANSHIP TRAINING SITE WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR COLLECTING AND SUBMITTING PERFORMANCE DATA ON MARINES CONDUCTING TABLES 1 AND 2 WITH RCOS TO THE MARKSMANSHIP PROGRAM MANAGEMENT SECTION (MPMS) AT THE MARKSMANSHIP CENTER OF EXCELLENCE IN ORDER TO ANALYZE THE EFFECTS IN TRAINING WITH THE RCOS DURING ART. B. THERE IS A PERCEIVED SCORING ADVANTAGE WHEN SHOOTING WITH THE RCO, HOWEVER, THE DATA AT THIS TIME IS VERY LIMITED IN SCOPE. THOUGH THE DATA IN THE NEAR FUTURE MAY SHOW A DEFINITE ADVANTAGE FOR THOSE SHOOTERS USING THE RCO, AT THIS TIME THERE WILL BE NO CONVERSION CHART OR POINT PENALTY ASSESSED TO SHOOTERS USING THE RCO. 3. REPORTING AND SCORING PROCEDURES. TABLE 1 AND TABLE 2 SCORES WILL BE ENTERED INTO MCTFS AS PER REF A WHETHER CONDUCTED WITH IRON SIGHTS OR RCOS. UNITS WILL NOT ENTER EXEMPTION CODES FOR MARINES QUALIFYING WITH RCOS. COMMANDS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN FIELDED THE RCO AND ENTRY-LEVEL TRAINING SITES WILL CONTINUE TO CONDUCT TABLES 1 AND 2 WITH IRON SIGHTS AND HAVE SCORES REPORTED INTO MCTFS. 4. EXECUTION. DUE TO THE SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES IN AIMING AND ZEROING (BETWEEN RCO AND IRON SIGHTS) MARINES EXECUTING ART WITH RCO'S, WILL RECEIVE SEPARATE CLASSES DURING PREPARATORY TRAINING. A. THE SEPARATE TRAINING PACKAGE (ART-A) WILL BE AVAILABLE TO COMBAT MARKSMANSHIP TRAINERS TO DOWNLOAD FROM THE MPMS WEBSITE (HTTPS):WWW.INTRANET.TECOM.USMC.MIL/SITES/WTBN/DOCTRINE/DEFAULT.ASPX. B. MARINES USING THE RCO WHILE EXECUTING TABLES 1 AND 2 SHOULD USE THE SLING ISSUED BY THEIR RESPECTIVE UNIT (I.E. WEB, ONE POINT OR THREE POINT). THE INTENT IS TO ALLOW MARINES TO TRAIN AND QUALIFY WITH THE PRIMARY SIGHTING SYSTEM AND SLING SYSTEM TO GAIN MORE CONFIDENCE WITH THE EQUIPMENT THEY WILL BE DEPLOYING WITH IN A COMBAT ENVIRONMENT. 5. ADDRESS QUESTIONS TO MPMS, MARKSMANSHIP CENTER OF EXCELLENCE, WEAPONS TRAINING BATTALION, QUANTICO, VIRGINIA. TEL: DSN 278-5520 COM: (703) 784-5520. 6. THIS MARADMIN CANCELS MARADMIN 295/08. 7. THIS MARADMIN IS APPLICABLE TO MARINE CORPS TOTAL FORCE. 8. RELEASE AUTHORIZED BY LTGEN GEORGE J. FLYNN, DEPUTY COMMANDANT, COMBAT DEVELOPMENT AND INTEGRATION.// |
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The Marines are starting to shoot their rifle qual course with optics. Kharn Not on the KD course we're not. Actually you are; see MarAdmin 295/08 142146Z MAY 08 MSGID/GENADMIN,USMTF,2007/CG MCCDC QUANTICO VA MCCDC// SUBJ/AUTHORIZATION TO CONDUCT TABLE 1 AND TABLE 2 WITH RIFLE COMBAT /OPTIC DURING ANNUAL RIFLE TRAINING AND QUALIFICATION// REF/A/MSGID:MCO 3574.2K/CMC WASHINGTON DC MCCDC/-// POC/JR MORENO/CAPT/UNIT:WTBN/NAME:QUANTICO/TEL:DSN 278-5520 /TEL:COM 703 784-5520/EMAIL:[email protected]// GENTEXT/REMARKS/1. BACKGROUND. THIS MARADMIN PROVIDES TEMPORARY GUIDANCE FOR MEETING ANNUAL MARKSMANSHIP TRAINING REQUIREMENTS UNTIL THE FIELDING OF THE NEW RIFLE COMBAT OPTIC (RCO) IS COMPLETED. SINCE THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE NEW MARINE CORPS COMBAT MARKSMANSHIP PROGRAM, DEPLOYING UNITS HAVE IDENTIFIED LACK OF SUFFICIENT TRAINING TIME TO MEET ANNUAL RIFLE QUALIFICATION REQUIREMENTS AND PREDEPLOYMENT TRAINING PREPARATION REQUIREMENTS. THE PRIMARY POINT OF ISSUE HAS BEEN THE REQUIREMENT FOR SHOOTING TABLE 1 WITH IRON SIGHTS ONLY. MANY DEPLOYING UNITS WOULD PREFER TO ALLOW MARINES TO SHOOT TABLES 1 AND 2 WITH THE RCO THEY WILL TAKE INTO COMBAT. IN ORDER TO BETTER MEET THE NEEDS OF COMMANDERS, AUTHORIZATION TO CONDUCT TABLE 1 AND TABLE 2 WITH AN RCO WILL BE TEMPORARILY AUTHORIZED. DUE TO THE FIELDING SHORTFALLS WITH THE RCO, SPECIFIC GUIDELINES WILL ALSO BE INSTITUTED TO MAINTAIN A FAIR EVALUATION FOR ALL MARINES CONDUCTING ANNUAL RIFLE TRAINING (ART) WITH REGARDS TO THOSE WHO MAY NOT BE ISSUED AN RCO. 2. IMPLEMENTATION. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, MARINES REQUIRING ANNUAL RIFLE TRAINING AND QUALIFICATION ARE AUTHORIZED TO SHOOT TABLE 1 AND TABLE 2 WITH ALL MODULAR ATTACHMENTS TO THE SERVICE RIFLE AND CARBINE TO INCLUDE THE RCO, LASER AIMING DEVICES, AND VERTICAL FOREGRIP. AUTHORIZATION WILL BE GRANTED BY THE COMMANDING OFFICER AT THE BATTALION AND SQUADRON LEVEL. ANNUAL RIFLE QUALIFICATION IS STILL REQUIRED FOR MARINES AND EXEMPTIONS STILL APPLY PER REFERENCE A. THE 0930 RANGE OFFICERS IN CHARGE OF EACH MARKSMANSHIP TRAINING SITE WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR COLLECTING AND SUBMITTING PERFORMANCE DATA ON MARINES CONDUCTING TABLES 1 AND 2 WITH RCOS TO THE MARKSMANSHIP PROGRAM MANAGEMENT SECTION (MPMS) IN ORDER TO ANALYZE THE EFFECTS IN TRAINING WITH THE RCOS DURING ART. AN UPDATED RCO TRAINING PACKAGE IS CURRENTLY BEING DEVELOPED IN ORDER TO PROVIDE ADDITIONAL INSTRUCTION ON EMPLOYING THE RCO DURING TABLE 1. THE UPDATED RCO TRAINING PACKAGE WILL SUPPLEMENT CURRENT INSTRUCTIONAL INFORMATION AND WILL SOON BE AVAILABLE AND DISTRIBUTED TO THE OPERATING FORCES. 3. REPORTING AND SCORING PROCEDURES. IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN A FAIR EVALUATION ON MARKSMANSHIP THROUGHOUT THE MARINE CORPS, TABLE 1 AND TABLE 2 SCORES WILL ONLY BE ENTERED INTO MCTFS IF CONDUCTED WITH IRON SIGHTS. IF A QUALIFICATION SCORE IS REQUIRED, DEPLOYING UNIT COMMANDERS WILL HAVE THE OPTION OF ALLOWING MARINES TO SHOOT WITH IRON SIGHTS TO EARN AN UPDATED QUALIFICATION SCORE OR SHOOT TABLE 1 AND TABLE 2 WITH THE RCO AND NOT RECEIVE AN UPDATED QUALIFICATION SCORE. BATTALION AND SQUADRON COMMANDS WILL ENTER AN EXEMPTION CODE INTO MCTFS FOR MARINES CONDUCTING TABLES 1 AND 2 WITH RCOS. THE EXEMPTION CODE COVERS AN ENTIRE FISCAL YEAR. THE EXEMPTIONS WILL ACCOUNT FOR THE ANNUAL REQUIREMENT FOR COMMANDS TO CONDUCT TABLES 1 AND 2 FOR SCORE. COMMANDS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN FIELDED THE RCO, SUPPORTING ESTABLISHMENT COMMANDS, AND ENTRY-LEVEL TRAINING SITES WILL CONTINUE TO CONDUCT TABLES 1 AND 2 WITH IRON SIGHTS AND HAVE SCORES REPORTED INTO MCTFS. PRELIMINARY STUDIES EXAMINING THE PERFORMANCE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN RCOS AND IRON SIGHTS USING ENTRY-LEVEL LIEUTENANTS HAVE SHOWN A FIVE POINT DIFFERENCE IN QUALIFICATION SCORES FAVORING THE RCOS. ALTHOUGH FURTHER COMPARISON STUDIES ARE REQUIRED TO IDENTIFY A TRUE MEASURE, THE INITIAL DIFFERENCES IN PERFORMANCE PREVENTS THE USE OF RCOS FOR QUALIFICATION SCORES WHILE MAINTAINING A FAIR STANDARD FOR ALL MARINES. AGAIN, THIS MARADMIN IS A TEMPORARY SOLUTION IN RESPONSE TO PREDEPLOYMENT TRAINING REQUIREMENTS FOR THE MARINE CORPS UNTIL RCO FIELDING REQUIREMENTS ARE COMPLETE. 4. ADDRESS QUESTIONS TO THE MARKSMANSHIP CENTER OF EXCELLENCE, DOCTRINE SECTION, WEAPONS TRAINING BATTALION, QUANTICO, VIRGINIA. TEL: DSN 278-5520 COM: (703) 784-5520. 5. THIS MARADMIN IS APPLICABLE TO MARINE CORPS TOTAL FORCE. 6. RELEASE AUTHORIZED BY COMMANDING GENERAL, MARINE CORPS COMBAT DEVELOPMENT COMMAND. // are you a real 03.... If you have glass you have to use it. And we are going to glass for every Marine... |