[ARCHIVED THREAD] - F18 pilot absolved (Page 1 of 7)
Posted: 12/11/2008 11:03:36 PM EDT
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Preliminary release of info looks like good news for the USMC pilot. Hopefully all the civvies will quit wanking and saying he was selfish for not driving it into the ground to be a hero.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/11/crash.probe/index.html?iref=mpstoryview |
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I hate to second guess, but ejecting at 2,200 feet doesn't provide much control as to where the aircraft ultimately ends up, especially over a crowded suburban area.  Pretty sure once both engines went out, it was game over.  For the people on the ground, for sure. |
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I hate to second guess, but ejecting at 2,200 feet doesn't provide much control as to where the aircraft ultimately ends up, especially over a crowded suburban area. Pretty sure once both engines went out, it was game over. For the people on the ground, for sure. What did you want him to do? Both engines went out and he was esentially flying a brick. It would have been nice if he could have put it down in a field, but that's not always possible. Its horrible that that poor man's family was killed, but I have trouble faulting the pilot. I'm sure he did his best, and I can't even imagine the kind of guilt he must be feeling right now, even if it wasn't his fault. I'm jnust glad that the man who's family was killed is taking the situation so well all things considered. I don't know if I would be as strong if I was in his shoes. 
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I hate to second guess, but ejecting at 2,200 feet doesn't provide much control as to where the aircraft ultimately ends up, especially over a crowded suburban area. Pretty sure once both engines went out, it was game over. +1 Low altitude, no thrust, and still two miles out. It's gonna be a bad day.
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Not to change away from the pilot, but I feel for the guy that lost his family. He has the right attitude about not blaming the pilot. That's the type of people we need moving to this country. +1 Tragedies happen and I am glad the Father understands that. It shows great character. His words from Foxnews "I pray for him not to suffer for this action," Yoon said at a news conference, according to The Los Angeles Times. "I know he's one of our treasures for our country." Those are the words of an American, no matter his place of birth. |
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Only the pilot decides when to eject, all the second guessing in the world won't change what happened. Have some guys stayed in the cockpit too long trying to avoid killing someone on the ground? Sure. Only the guy in the seat at the time can make that decision.
My dad told me about an F106 pilot in ND that had a spin/flameout back in the late 60's over western ND/SD in the Black Hills. He stayed with it till he got it restarted and pulled out of the dive/fall and saved the plane. However, when he did get it started the airplane had dropped off radar and was actually below the tops of the surrounding hills. Will everyone do that? Nope. Was it smart? I don't know, but it worked for him. That guy's got to live with his decision for the rest of his life. He's got to live with the reaction of his fellow pilots for the rest of his career. |
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I hate to second guess, but ejecting at 2,200 feet doesn't provide much control as to where the aircraft ultimately ends up, especially over a crowded suburban area. Pretty sure once both engines went out, it was game over. +1 Low altitude, no thrust, and still two miles out. It's gonna be a bad day.
I'm not positive but chances are he lost all hydraulics with the loss of both engines which meant zero directional control of the F-18; he was strapped to a lawn dart at that point. |
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If someone did a sub par job maintaining the plane, they are the most culpable. Otherwise, no one is guilty or responsible. The pilot certainly isn't. Freak accidents sometimes happen. Of course he isn't, but I bet that isn't much of a consolation after taking out some guys whole family. I wouldn't wanna be in either of their shoes right now, but as others have said, at least the guy who's family was killed is approaching the situation with a positive attitude (at least as one can be when something like this happens).
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I hate to second guess, but ejecting at 2,200 feet doesn't provide much control as to where the aircraft ultimately ends up, especially over a crowded suburban area. Ever ejected out of a falling plane that you have no control over? I am sure that 2000 feet doesn't seem like a lot when the ground is coming up fast. |
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I can't second-guess the pilot's actions. I'm not qualified.
Looking at the airplane, there's not a lot that will cause a loss of both engines. Fuel depletion is one. If he cut his fuel management that close, it was bad judgment. Another possibility could be a catastrophic engine failure, with shrapnel taking out the other engine. The reason the Navy & Marines like two-engine airplanes is being able to come home/make it back to the carrier if an engine s lost. If he lost both engines, some condition defeated that redundancy. |
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And who is to say that he could have done anything after the two engines went out anyways if he stayed in til the end? The Arfcom heros who insist that they would have nobly flown that F-18 into the ground rather than eject, overriding every instinct of self preservation and every shred of training to fly it into the ocean or something. Of course, none of those guys have ever been in a fighter jet, certainly haven't flown one, and have never even given any real thought to what they would really do if they had to choose between commiting suicide to save strangers or doing what they are supposed to do and ejecting. |
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I hate to second guess, but ejecting at 2,200 feet doesn't provide much control as to where the aircraft ultimately ends up, especially over a crowded suburban area. Pretty sure once both engines went out, it was game over. For the people on the ground, for sure. At 2,200 you have less than 5 seconds to pull the handle, and bail out safely, with an ejection seat. |
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Does he still have surface controls on an F18 after both engines are done? No, he does not. The back-up flight control system (called Backup Mech) still needs at least one hyd system to operate. There are 2 hyd systems on a hornet, one powered by each engine. When both engines are lost, so are both hyd systems. With NO hyd system operating, there is no flight controls, not even Backup Mech. |
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Quoted: I'll bet on that too. The problem is that when he punched out, he changed the weight of the plane by several hundred pounds and thus changed the CG as well. That change would dramatically affect the way the plane would glide.Quoted: From the overhead picture, another hundred yards or so, and the pilot would have been a hero for missing the houses. I bet he thought that's where the plane was going to go when he punched out. Personally, I feel sorry for BOTH of the victims- pilot and surviving father. |
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Homeowners in for a hell of a fight with his insurance company. No way. Could you imagine the bad press? If I was his insurance company's CEO, what with the press on this, I'd call that office and say this guy is to get the best service the company has ever provided. A whiff of bad coverage hits the media and you'd see a headline of "INSURANCE COMPANY X REFUSES TO COVER MAN WHO LOST HIS FAMILY IN ACCIDENT" or something. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Homeowners in for a hell of a fight with his insurance company. I know absolutely nothing about how it works, but won't .gov hook him up relative to replacing his house? The guy's gotta have contingency lawyers hounding him constantly... From the legal perspective this is pretty clear cut. It will be handled under the Federal Tort Claims Act. The economic damages will be straight forward to calculate; it will be the loss of family that is more contentious. Depending on the final determination of the cause of the crash one a suit might be brought against McDonell-Douglas nee' Boeing, but I would guess this never sees the inside of a court room. |
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I truly feel sorry for the family and pilot, but accidents do happen and both the father and the pilot will have live with this forever. But this is the risk we run into if you live near any kind of air field or anything. I remember the news or someone saying how close the neighborhood is to the place he was trying to land but take a look at this picture.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/chemtek/dobbins.jpg The people that live in Atlanta everyone knows that this is Dobbin ARB, and the constantly have C-130's and different military aircraft coming in. Cobb parkway on the right is always filled with traffic plus all of the businesses and neighborhoods around it. I do not know if there has ever been a crash there or not but this is the risk if you build around these type of things. |
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Homeowners in for a hell of a fight with his insurance company. I know absolutely nothing about how it works, but won't .gov hook him up relative to replacing his house? The guy's gotta have contingency lawyers hounding him constantly... I'm surprised he's having to fight his insurance company. With certain exclusions (Flood, rot etc) houses are generally all-risk. As a former insurance adjuster, I'd like to see the exclusion the insurance is using to deny coverage. |
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From the aerial view it looks like the pilot diverts to Mirimar when losing 1 engine. He was pretty well lined up with the field At some point loses engine 2 and from what i can ascertain in an f18 system hydraulic control pretty shortly. At that point hes pretty well on a glide path, and even if the hydraulics were working your still on the ass end of the thrust, altitude time curve.
At 2200 feet dead stick no thrust, and altitude plummeting your time left gets real short. What are the odds that at 2000 feet you can get an engine back online and adequate thrust to clear the ground I think about nil. At that point you punch it and pray the bird clears any collateral damage. |
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If the plane wants to go down, there's not a whole lot that the man can do to stop it. Doesn't that thing have the glide characteristics of a brick? With the high wing loading of fighters (weight per square foot of lifting area), when you lose thrust you can guide it (provided you have hydraulics) more than glide it. That is, you might be able to control direction, but it's coming down, hard and fast. |
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You got "absolved" from that article???? Sure, ejecting is part of procedure, but trying to force the aircraft down into an unpopulated spot (not a house) is a moral issue. I used to live in that area, depending on when the engines failed, there are some densely populated areas there, he may not have had a choice but to punch out when he did. it's not like he could have glided all the way to the pacific ocean from 2200feet up. 
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| Way too many people here have watched too many movies and are now experts in flying a stalled out 40,000 aircraft. Sheesh. I'm sure the guy did all he could, fighter pilots are highly skilled and intelligent, not some guy sitting at home Monday morning quarterbacking from behind a computer. |
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Way too many people here have watched too many movies and are now experts in flying a stalled out 40,000 aircraft. Sheesh. I'm sure the guy did all he could, fighter pilots are highly skilled and intelligent, not some guy sitting at home Monday morning quarterbacking from behind a computer. Not a pilot, but I have 30 years of aircraft maintenance xperience, from fighters to heavy airlifters, with a couple years of aircrew duty as a flight engineer. I have a slight understanding of how airplanes work. I have no reason to doubt the pilot did all that was within his power. Without hydraulics, the situation would have been totaly beyond his control. |
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I truly feel sorry for the family and pilot, but accidents do happen and both the father and the pilot will have live with this forever. But this is the risk we run into if you live near any kind of air field or anything. I remember the news or someone saying how close the neighborhood is to the place he was trying to land but take a look at this picture. http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/chemtek/dobbins.jpg The people that live in Atlanta everyone knows that this is Dobbin ARB, and the constantly have C-130's and different military aircraft coming in. Cobb parkway on the right is always filled with traffic plus all of the businesses and neighborhoods around it. I do not know if there has ever been a crash there or not but this is the risk if you build around these type of things. Funny you put a picture of Dobbins up. Back in the '80s an A-7 crashed into some apartments on Windy Hill Rd causing at least one death on the ground.
Here's the story: November 11, 1989
Death Toll Now at 2 in Crash of Navy Jet in Georgia By RONALD SMOTHERS, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES LEAD: A pregnant woman died tonight of burns and searchers found the body of a man in the debris of an apartment complex where a Navy fighter plane crashed Thursday night. A pregnant woman died tonight of burns and searchers found the body of a man in the debris of an apartment complex where a Navy fighter plane crashed Thursday night. Margie Padovani, 28 years old, died of her injuries at Grady Memorial Hospital. Her 5-year-old daughter, Jacquelyn, remained in critical condition tonight. said John Hester, the hospital's night administrator. The identity of the man found in the debris was not disclosed. Searchers at first feared that as many as five people were missing and could have been killed when the single-engine jet, an A-7E Corsair 2, crashed into two of the four frame buildings that make up the 72-unit Pine Village Apartments and burned three of the buildings. But four of those thought to be missing later were located unharmed. 'It's Almost a Miracle' ''It could have been a whole lot worse than this,'' said Mayor Max Bacon of Smyrna, a suburb north of Atlanta. ''It's almost a miracle.'' The search for victims was delayed this morning to await the arrival of Navy investigators, who planned to plot the location of the scattered parts of the plane and try to determine the cause of the crash. Unlike commercial aircraft, military planes do not have flight recorders that could provide clues to the cause, said Lieut. Comdr. Mark Nickleson, a spokesman for the Naval Air Station at Dobbins Air Force Base. Navy spokesmen said that there was a recording of the pilot's radio transmissions to the Dobbins control tower, but added that there was nothing in the recording to indicate that the pilot, who was trying to land, was having any problems. The pilot, Lieut. Comdr. Robert M. Conlyn Jr., a 37-year-old member of the Navy Reserve, was in critical condition today at Kennestone Hospital in Marietta but was slightly improved after surgery for head injuries Thursday night, a spokesman said. Dr. Joseph Burton, the Cobb County medical examiner, said the body that was found was in one of the apartments that was hit almost directly after the plane plummeted into the parking lot of the apartment complex and skidded more than 30 yards. He said the man appeared to have entered the apartment only minutes before the crash. Residents today recalled the horror of the crash scene. ''The worst part was just the sounds - that little girl screaming,'' said Tamara Owens. Bill Barcus, who still had a reddened face and a singed arm from facing the heat as he tried to reach Ms. Padovani, said: ''I got to within 10 feet of the woman but it was too hot and I didn't have any shoes on. All I could hear were her screams, but I had to back off. I went back to get my shoes, but by then somebody had gotten her.'' Holly Alfredson, 24, was treated for cracked ribs and released. Eleven other people were treated for minor injuries at the scene. Two Other Crashes Recalled At least two other military aircraft have crashed near Dobbins in the last 25 years, Commander Nickleson said, the last one in 1974. He added that no civilians were killed. The base, 15 miles northwest of Atlanta, is one of the busiest in the region; last year it recorded 100,000 takeoffs and landings. Commander Conlyn, a resident of nearby Marietta, is one of 8,000 National Guardsmen or Reservists whose units are based at Dobbins. He was attached to the VA-205 Naval Reserve Squadron. The Navy spokesman said he had taken the plane out on a routine training mission for about two hours. |
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I hate to second guess, but ejecting at 2,200 feet doesn't provide much control as to where the aircraft ultimately ends up, especially over a crowded suburban area. 2200 ft is nothing in a F-18 with no engines, if he lost hydraulics he couldn't have done anything. |
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I'm finding it tough to keep it in after seeing the pictures of the kids that died. Think how the pilot must feel.
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If the plane wants to go down, there's not a whole lot that the man can do to stop it. Doesn't that thing have the glide characteristics of a brick? With the high wing loading of fighters (weight per square foot of lifting area), when you lose thrust you can guide it (provided you have hydraulics) more than glide it. That is, you might be able to control direction, but it's coming down, hard and fast. Yep... I suggest some of you go grab Falcon 4.0 Allied Force out of the bargain bin and do some flameout landings; about the closest thing to reality I can think of. Watch how fast you chew up that altitude, and AFAIK you're working with more than an F/A-18 pilot is even then. Hell, shoot yourself up with adrenaline too while you're at it. 2200 feet isn't enough to do shit. |
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I have very little knowledge or experience when it comes to aviation, so correct me if I'm wrong, but:
Fighter aircraft are built to generate very little lift from the wings such that they can fly at such high speeds. They rely on those high speeds to generate the lift they need to fly. Once both engines go out and they lose that speed, they become a brick; as in they don't have anywhere near the gliding ability that a Cessna or what not would have. So basically, once you lose power and fall below a certain airspeed, that thing is going to fall out of the sky like a rock. From that google earth image a poster generated, it looks like he might have been aiming for that soccer field and the plane carried a couple hundred feet further than he intended. |
| Still though the odds of both engines failing are off the charts. This has the hallmarks of fuel starvation. Remember the 767 in Canada they call the Gimley Glider. Fuel mistake thought gallons but it was liters. Both engines quit and they glided to a unused AFB. Then the Airbus also Canadian over the ocean and ran out and glided to the Azores. They had a fuel line rupture and lost their fuel. The computer system might have cut the fuel off. If so thats a really bad program- The Airbus 320 demo flight that the pilot's wanted take-off thrust but the computer said "landing configuration" and would not respond. But number one is no fuel. Windjammer |
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Still though the odds of both engines failing are off the charts. This has the hallmarks of fuel starvation. Remember the 767 in Canada they call the Gimley Glider. Fuel mistake thought gallons but it was liters. Both engines quit and they glided to a unused AFB. Then the Airbus also Canadian over the ocean and ran out and glided to the Azores. They had a fuel line rupture and lost their fuel. The computer system might have cut the fuel off. If so thats a really bad program- The Airbus 320 demo flight that the pilot's wanted take-off thrust but the computer said "landing configuration" and would not respond. But number one is no fuel. Windjammer I spoke to someone who was on the carrier at the time, although not directly involved. The story as I heard it was that the pilot was a student who had taken off from Miramar to practice landing on the carrier. Due to an oil pressure/ quantity issue, he was forced to secure one of his two engines. Because he's a student, the powers that be on the carrier elected to send him back to Miramar, instead of attempting a more difficult/ risky recovery aboard the boat. Apparently, when a hornet pilot secures an engine, part of the checklist requires that they also take a step to change the way the internal fuel is transferred to the operating engine. In other words, the rumor as I heard it is that fuel starvation due to improper response to the emergency may have played a role in the mishap. The pilot may not have been able to do much to alter the path of the jet after total loss of thrust on short final, but the fault might still be his. Aviation does not tolerate mistakes, even little small ones. |