Posted: 12/8/2008 5:16:19 PM EDT
|
New to the site - a lot of good info here.
I have been shooting various guns since I was in elementary school (now 44). My dad taught me from a young age basically two rules regarding gun safey: 1. Always treat a gun as if it was loaded. 2. Never point a gun at anything you don't want to shoot. I have always found these simple rules to be very practical. Over the years I have read many stories about people getting shot by "unloaded" guns - "I didn't think it was loaded". I would never point a gun at someone regardless if I "knew" the gun was loaded or not (unless they happened to be breaking into my house or something, in which case rule number 2 above does not apply to them  ).
This is all background information on a recent trip to a local sprorting goods store. I happened by the gun department and saw an employee behind the counter (high school or college kid) showing several pistols to a couple who didn't seem to know much about guns. The scary part was that the kid behind the counter pulled out a few pistols and proceeded to pull back the slide to verify the gun was unloaded, but while he was doing this he didn't seem to care what direction the gun was pointed - toward the customer he was helping, me, other customers - WTF! Once he handed the pistol over to the customer, he held it in front of him in his right hand palm facing up, gun pointing to the left. Guess who was standing immediately to his left? - his wife / girlfriend! He did this with several different pistols. Yes the guns were unloaded, but I can't imagine this happening in a gunshop with professionals who knew what they were doing working behind the counter. Am I crazy or is it suddenly OK to point "unloaded" guns at customers? I was frankly stunned at what I saw. P.S. would like to get an AR15 soon - just have to convince the wifey... |
|
Welcome! Glad to have another level head here!
You're 100% right about how lax most people are about muzzle discipline. Gun store employees are no better than Joe Doofus at the gun show—and I've "schooled" more than a few such doofuses on where NOT to point a gun (like NOT at ME!). I think it's incumbent on us, the people who actually know a little bit about guns, to educate these enthusiastic but obviously uneducated people. Of course we can't whack them upside the head like a DI might (damn it!!!), but we can be very emphatic in our lessons. Once I grabbed the muzzle of an Uzi carbine so hard that I pulled it out of the hands of the newb that was looking at it, and I said "NEVER point a gun at ME!!!" Half the gun show heard that—it got really quiet for a moment there.  But I'll bet that particular guy always knew where the muzzle was after that.
|
| I went shooting a week ago. It happened to be the weekend before deer gun season here in OH. I had many shotgun muzzles swing my way. I left the range with MUCH higher blood pressure and perhaps a might shorter lifespan. There's definitely a difference between a gun owner and a shooter. |
|
1. Always treat a gun as if it was loaded.
2. Never point a gun at anything you don't want to shoot. We seriously must be long lost brothers because that is exactly what my father taught me when I was younger. Almost word for word. I remember his yelling at me as a little boy because I accidentally pointed it at something while putting the gun away or something. I plan on teaching the same thing to my children. Yeah, there are too many whackos out there that have no idea about the respect they should show guns. |
have you noticed that even in many firearm stores the sales people will hand you a firearm without first clearing it.? When this happens I always remove the Mag. if it's got one and then clear the action. I am told over and over time after time by the sales people, oh we never allow our firearms to be loaded with live Ammo.
|
|
You forgot "keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot".
Or, as I taught it to my kids, "keep your booger hook off the bang switch". Agreed about bad gun handling at the range and/or gun shop. I just about punched someone at a gun shop several years ago who decided I was the perfect target upon which to take a sight picture. I moved to his side, grabbed his arm, and "helped" him lower the weapon to a safe position. He told me it wasn't loaded. I told him I have no way of knowing that until he shoots me by mistake with an "unloaded" weapon. |
|
Quoted:
have you noticed that even in many firearm stores the sales people will hand you a firearm without first clearing it.? When this happens I always remove the Mag. if it's got one and then clear the action. I am told over and over time after time by the sales people, oh we never allow our firearms to be loaded with live Ammo. I see it a lot and it floors me. |
|
I was in a gun shop about ten years ago and some idiot customer was checking out a rifle. He was pointing it at other customer's heads, while looking down the sights.
I had a word with the shop owner, who I knew pretty well. Said idiot was promptly thrown out of the store. |
|
Quoted:
have you noticed that even in many firearm stores the sales people will hand you a firearm without first clearing it.? When this happens I always remove the Mag. if it's got one and then clear the action. I am told over and over time after time by the sales people, oh we never allow our firearms to be loaded with live Ammo. my local gunshop guy never checks shit, last week when i was in checking something out, he pulled the bolt and checked, said they had to check them now all the time cuz someone had a gun transferred to them and they handed it over and it had a live round! got a big surprise when they pulled the bolt. |
| My favorite gun store in-town they are very good about clearing a chamber on anything and having the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. You dont see that at Dick's Sporting Goods or regular store. Its greatly appreciated from a safe gun handler, like you ive been taught the same rules. It makes you feel like you are working with safe people and make me want to do business with them, along with their knowledge of firearms. I do take offense when people things irresponsible things firearms. I would have to say something to him or his manager regarding the incident. Its just not good business. |
|
what i am seeing more and more now with all the panic buying is noobs that dont know jack about safety....
example a guy i share a house with decided to buy a handgun, so i started showing him glocks, S&W, colts ect....... he went with a Hi-Point....."because it was cheep" even when its unloaded he flags me with it, and i bitch him out every time
i took him to the range so he could shoot his new "gat" and guess what....it jammed 7 times 
hate to say i told you so 
but myself and everyone else in the class is teaching him what to do and what not to do 
|
|
You missed Rule No. 4.
Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET |
|
Quoted:
You missed Rule No. 4. Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET This one is wrong |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
You missed Rule No. 4. Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET This one is wrong Sorry mate. Somebody had to be wrong here, and the good news is it's YOU. 
Look up Jeff Cooper's rules of gun safety. They are the exact four rules stated above. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You missed Rule No. 4. Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET This one is wrong Sorry mate. Somebody had to be wrong here, and the good news is it's YOU.
Look up Jeff Cooper's rules of gun safety. They are the exact four rules stated above. I know he said it. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
You missed Rule No. 4. Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety RULE I: ASSUME ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET This one is wrong Fixed |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
have you noticed that even in many firearm stores the sales people will hand you a firearm without first clearing it.? When this happens I always remove the Mag. if it's got one and then clear the action. I am told over and over time after time by the sales people, oh we never allow our firearms to be loaded with live Ammo. I see it a lot and it floors me. To the credit of local shops, it rarely happens here. It is re-cleared with every change of hands though. 
|
|
Your rules are right, and it does give me the heebie jeebies.
Depending on the circumstances, either yell out loud "muzzle!" or more subtly correct the person. Acting (or being surprised) and taking pains to stay out of the muzzle path also tends to get the point across. The flip side is that in the military we'd cover each other with muzzles all the time; but there is trust and a medic nearby, and some would say "safe enough." |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You missed Rule No. 4. Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety RULE I: ASSUME ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT'S AROUND IT This one is wrong Fixed Again |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
have you noticed that even in many firearm stores the sales people will hand you a firearm without first clearing it.? When this happens I always remove the Mag. if it's got one and then clear the action. I am told over and over time after time by the sales people, oh we never allow our firearms to be loaded with live Ammo. I see it a lot and it floors me. To the credit of local shops, it rarely happens here. It is re-cleared with every change of hands though. I never hand a gun to someone without the slide back or the cylinder open. |
|
Quoted:
have you noticed that even in many firearm stores the sales people will hand you a firearm without first clearing it.? When this happens I always remove the Mag. if it's got one and then clear the action. I am told over and over time after time by the sales people, oh we never allow our firearms to be loaded with live Ammo. I had a sales guy at Dicks who was surprisingly good about muzzle awareness and checking the chamber. I asked to see a 930 SPX, he cleared it and handed to me. I said I would take it and handed it back to him. He checked it again and locked it back up on the rack. He went to the back to get a non-display model, which they were out of. So he asked if I would take the display model and if I wanted to look at it one last time. Sure, I said. Again he cleared it and handed back to me, and cleared it when I gave it back. For a young guy, I was impressed. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
have you noticed that even in many firearm stores the sales people will hand you a firearm without first clearing it.? When this happens I always remove the Mag. if it's got one and then clear the action. I am told over and over time after time by the sales people, oh we never allow our firearms to be loaded with live Ammo. I see it a lot and it floors me. To the credit of local shops, it rarely happens here. It is re-cleared with every change of hands though. I never hand a gun to someone without the slide back or the cylinder open. I have never been handed a gun that I didn't then manually re-check safe by both inspecting and then physically feeling the chamber the verify its empty (a little trick I was first taught by Old Painless by the way). I feel this is a pretty darn good method of doing business at a gun store and would not have it any other way  .
To the OP, no you are not at all crazy and no this is in no way an appropriate behavior when handling a gun and it seems like lately it has been getting more and more out of hand. Whenever someone muzzlesweeps me either at the range or store I always always react and say something, if its someone who appears to be a new shooter/owner it is usually a polite word of warning/ impromtu safety lesson. (no reason to have some new potential convert getting all creeped out by some asshole yelling at them the first time they touched a gun when all they did was pick it up). When I'm at a range and it happens again depending how the level of the shooter and how bad the offense I still always say something but anywhere from a polite reminder to getting very very pissed and letting them know exactly my opinion of their mental capacity. There has been exactly one time in my life where I have accidentally muzzle swept someone, I was a little kid as young as you could safely shoot a round of trap/5 stand with a 20 guage ( I was young enough where the gun was still so big I had to shoulder it onto my bicep and pull the trigger with my middle finger, and when the day was over I had a massive welt on my arm and wouldn't be able to lift my elbow up for a week but what did I care dad had taken me shooting . So I must of been pretty young.
Anyway so this happened during the first time I ever went into a gun store, and on the way there my old man was re-explaing the classic 4 rules to me, but I was so nervous/excited I really couldn't help but not pay attention to him. When the guy behind the counter handed him the 20 gauge POS pump (Which I still have and will give to my child someday whenever that is), my father checked it was clear and handed it to me, I struggle to rack the slide and inspect it and after I did I was so proud of myself that I went to shoulder it and kinda pointed it long ways down the corridor of the store. Even though there was nobody really 'in the sights' per se, someone was still close enough for my father to teach me a lesson, he took the barrel of the gun and slammed it down and away from me as hard as he could. (Looking back it was pretty obvious that he was planning teaching me this lesson all along just about regardless of where I pointed it.) It took all my strength for me to keep a hold on the shotgun and not let the barrel drop to the ground. After I grabbed it again I looked up at him and he said very calmly, you will never point a gun at anything that you are not willing to destroy. right? I nodded yes and he said very well try it again point it safely this time, I did and that was the last time something like that has ever happened since. Just the embarrassment I felt of screwing up in a store full of people and letting my father down was more than enough to always have that in the back of my mind whenever I walk into another gun store even to this day. |