[ARCHIVED THREAD] - UAW....this is your future (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 11/29/2008 11:29:00 AM EDT
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accept it or drive the business out of the country.
http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189 Amazing plant and a neat video. |
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Can someone explain to me why US auto makers are going to other countries and other countries are coming here? Unions vs non unions. Its cheaper to produce a foreign car here (they sell faster) without unions, but more expensive to make domestic cars locally because of the unions limits. This all relates back to the unions strangling the domestic car manufacturer. |
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Quoted: Once The Union is in, it never leaves. Take your shit somewhere else and start fresh. Toyota and others probably spend a lot of money and offer great benefits as to ensure that the employees never feel the NEED for another branch of the UAW.Can someone explain to me why US auto makers are going to other countries and other countries are coming here? |
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Once The Union is in, it never leaves. Take your shit somewhere else and start fresh. Toyota and others probably spend a lot of money and offer great benefits as to ensure that the employees never feel the NEED for another branch of the UAW.
Can someone explain to me why US auto makers are going to other countries and other countries are coming here? This. Toyota is fanatical about weeding out the pro-Union types during their Employee Orientation process. |
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Can someone explain to me why US auto makers are going to other countries and other countries are coming here? The other countries have discovered "right to work" states. US manufacturers? not so much. This is a phenomenon that has always fascinated me... Why didn't the Big 3 just shut down every plant in a union state, and move to good states a long time ago? That, and refuse to buy parts from union states, would pretty much take care of the union trash. |
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I don't understand the statement that this plant couldn't be built in the US "because the goddamn UAWs wouldn't allow it".
Why couldn't this plant be built in one of the Right to Work states? Screw building it in Detroit, build it in Nashville. We will take a plant like that here in Florida and the UAW can kiss our ass. |
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I don't understand the statement that this plant couldn't be built in the US "because the goddamn UAWs wouldn't allow it". Why couldn't this plant be built in one of the Right to Work states? Screw building it in Detroit, build it in Nashville. We will take a plant like that here in Florida and the UAW can kiss our ass. ..Because their sales in Brazil are probably up, but the sales here are down. When/If they do build a new plant (after they shut all the current ones down), I doubt they will go MI/UAW, though. |
| Nothing better that reading more anti - union bullshit would really like to know what you all do what you make per hour etc. Unions made this country.It would be a cold day in hell before i would would for a dam jap car plant. blast on brothers about unions and this post . |
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Unions are not inherently evil. Someone hit the nail on the head in mentioning that some companies take steps to make sure the employees are taken care of so union activity isn't needed.
UAW has spiraled a bit out of control and needs to get back to the important stuff. If your company constantly screws the workers unions can be good. Handled correctly they are actually good for everyone. The problem is in the application, not the existence. Joe |
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Nothing better that reading more anti - union bullshit would really like to know what you all do what you make per hour etc. Unions made this country.It would be a cold day in hell before i would would for a dam jap car plant. blast on brothers about unions and this post . So you would rather starve than work for a Jap car plant? This is why I have no sympathy for union folk. You want to make top dollar or nothing at all. There is no in between with you people. 
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Unions are not inherently evil. Someone hit the nail on the head in mentioning that some companies take steps to make sure the employees are taken care of so union activity isn't needed. UAW has spiraled a bit out of control and needs to get back to the important stuff. If your company constantly screws the workers unions can be good. Handled correctly they are actually good for everyone. The problem is in the application, not the existence. Joe Unless conditions exist where "most" employers pay less than subsistence wages, unions are not ever beneficial to the overall health of the economy. Collective bargaining is never "fair". |
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Nothing better that reading more anti - union bullshit would really like to know what you all do what you make per hour etc. Unions made this country.It would be a cold day in hell before i would would for a dam jap car plant. blast on brothers about unions and this post . I think it sucks that a bunch of Americans are going to lose jobs, but sometimes there are better ways of doing things. The UAW is an enemy of itself. If I had a choice to lose my job, or take home a little less than normal and keep my job that would be a no-brainer. The UAW's "we won't give an inch" stance is getting union workers inches closer to the unemployment line. The union members have gone along with this plan, because they think they are doing better and better every time there is a contract, but it is to the contrary. All Americans need to learn from all this mess that is going on now. We need to wise up and tighten our belts. By the way..........unions killed the Winchester factory in Connecticut. |
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Can someone explain to me why US auto makers are going to other countries and other countries are coming here? If you're ready to hear the truth, I can give you the only honest answer<<hot. The greatest threat to our nation's sovereignty, even her very existence, is presently being spearheaded by elements of the political Right, up to, and including, our current President. "...They claim to be super-patriots, but they would destroy every liberty guaranteed by the Constitution. They demand free enterprise, but are the spokesmen for monopoly and vested interest<<hot. Their final objective toward which all their deceit is directed is to capture political power so that, using the power of the state and the power of the market simultaneously, they may keep the common man in eternal subjection." Henry A. Wallace
33rd Vice President of the United States -and Left-Wing Moonbat. Being an ideological Centrist, unlike many of you, I can acknowledge Truth, and clearly perceive right and wrong, whether it emanates from the Right, or the Left.
Free your minds. Only the Truth will set you free. |
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Nothing better that reading more anti - union bullshit would really like to know what you all do what you make per hour etc. Unions made this country.It would be a cold day in hell before i would would for a dam jap car plant. blast on brothers about unions and this post . My job can't be performed by a barefoot 5-year old boy in Indo-China. "Brothers" get "blasted on" because they expect $25 an hour for lever pulling and button pushing. The majority are unskilled labor and expect wages on par with skilled/trade labor. If it requires them to lose their jobs to see the writing on the wall, then so be it. With cushy union jobs, there's no incentive to better yourself through training/education/apprenticeship. The US wasn't "built on unions"...that's utter horseshit. The US was built on men and women who worked hard to improve themselves and better their positions in life. Unions were necessary in the late 19th and early 20th centuries to ensure a safe work environment––now that there are multiple regulatory agencies, they've outlived their usefulness. |
The Lansing Grand River plant (CTS, SRX, STS) and Delta plant (Enclave, Outlook, Acadia) in Michigan operate just like this one. GM's CTS plant was the first to work this way and has been doing it like this for 10 years. And those are both UAW plants. 
The way of the "old" way of making cars is long gone and any plants holding on to old production processes are either gone or going. And the UAW does know this. You guys spout off a lot, but know very little. 
The UAW has a lot of faults and God knows there needs some heads knocked together and changes in the Union leadership, but the UAW isn't "all" the fault of everything GM and American manufacturing is experiencing. If you knew how GM, along with other multi-national corporations, operated their books and were screwing the American public, you'd be pissed. You guys blast GM, but love Toyota, but you don't have a clue that Toyota uses lighter gauge sheet steal in their production cars, than their crash test vehicles. How do I know that? Because I worked in Engineering for GM. We tested competitors cars and found you guys are getting screwed over and you didn't even know it. How about those Hondas that don't deploy their air bags, huh? Yeah, you really got a deal there boy. But to be fair, how about those Pinto's, can't leave those out, even though that's way old news.
Ever see a 6 to 8 year old Toyota in the snow belt? If you did, I bet it looked like hell. Lot's of sheet metal cancer, because they use substandard sheet metal practices. The problem with GM is, they make mistakes on things that matter, but do very well on a lot of things that customers don't usually see or focus on but are very important. Perception is reality in a lot of cases, even though the truth is different. And GM's has a lot of problems because of the lack of keeping an eye on the dealers. GM's dealers are helping to kill GM too and management doesn't seem to give a crap. Plus, the dealers, screw over the corporation, causing higher prices on the cars. If you only knew how ALL of it worked. Open your eyes, read and learn and quit being so bi-polar. Gezzz. Hate because you want to hate, instead of learning and enlightenment only makes you a dumbass. A problem is a problem, but don't make more into it than it is, because you believe everything you hear from some talking head that has an agenda. And this automotive manufacture bail out is nothing more than the big 3 going after low cost loans, because they can't get them anywhere else. However, if they can't borrow money, they'll go under, because that's how business works these days. And did you know Rick Wagner want's to take 1 billion of the 10 billion GM is seeking and investing it in Brasil? Yep, that's right. And for everyone's information, GM production workers make the same as US based Toyota production workers, the financial talking heads on fox, cnn, etc., along with the finanical guru's, lump in pension benefits, causing them to say the wages are higher. Bet you didn't know, when a GM UAW member retires, their base retirement pay stays the same. If it's $2,000 per month after 30 years, it stays that way for the rest of the persons life. All cost of living benefits are in lump sums, so they don't accumulate like government workers do. So 30 years on UAW pension, your income is worth a whole lot less than it was when you first retired. I met an 85 year old lady who's GM pension was $77 per month. Yeah, that's a high legacy cost. The issue is, you have fewer GM/UAW workers to pay for LOTS of retirees. Same as the social security issues we have.
There is a LOT that you guys don't have a clue about. Oh yeah, one more...31% of American car company cars cost is because of lawsuit, lawyers, and legislation. Lawyers and politicians cost you more money than the UAW or less efficient practices. That's a fact. |
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[ "Brothers" get "blasted on" because they expect $25 an hour for lever pulling and button pushing. The majority are unskilled labor and expect wages on par with skilled/trade labor. what plants are the $25 an hour button pushing jobs in? For that kind of money ill gladly go back in the automotive assembly biz. With my previous experience and time in the IAM i should be able to pull $100 -200 an hour easily |
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Nothing better that reading more anti - union bullshit would really like to know what you all do what you make per hour etc. Unions made this country.It would be a cold day in hell before i would would for a dam jap car plant. blast on brothers about unions and this post . So you would rather starve than work for a Jap car plant? This is why I have no sympathy for union folk. You want to make top dollar or nothing at all. There is no in between with you people. Yep, he has already priced himself right out of a job sector. Oh well, guess we will see how that works out for him. Personally, I am not going to buy ANY new cars and chances are I won't be buying one produced in a union plant. Why you may ask? Quality, unions are not conducive to quality pure and simple. There is no incentive to be better than the guy next to you, only to be good enough to not get fired. This is not how the REAL job market works. 
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I design factory automation.
When i set a new piece of equipment in a UAW factory- the skilled trades know how to do their jobs; whether they want to is a different story. If a line does not meet union muster- for whatever reason- your equipment is DOA- if could be the finest piece of tooling ever made- it will never run. The union stalkers whose whole purpose is to get contractors written up, who are the only persons who know how to run the machine deserve to never work again. When you work on an extended installation- and you work with the same crew all week- whr the project calls for weekend work- you get the seniority tradesmen- who don't understand the project, you end up getting 3% efficiency for your double time dollar. This happens when you as a manufacturer are trying to collect any profit you might have made on the project. Then you have to clear the drawing and documentation nazi's. I haven't worked on a 90/10 project in two years. i've worked on medical and high tech projects only in those two years. Robots in factories are not whiz-bang anymore- employing them to safety standards is the art. Several years ago we built three duplicate systems. one stayed in the States. one went to India, the other went to Brazil. The line that stayed in the States, a local installation, was a start-up hand-holding nightmare. The line that went to India- never sent a assembly to market. The line that went to Brazil exceeded all requirements, and in time met the production requirements of all three systems. |
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Nothing better that reading more anti - union bullshit would really like to know what you all do what you make per hour etc. Unions made this country.It would be a cold day in hell before i would would for a dam jap car plant. blast on brothers about unions and this post .  Unions didnt make this country, they Ruined it
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Wow, an efficient and highly productive factory. It's the Democrat's worst nightmare come true. Where are the rooms where the workers just sit and collect $70/hr for doing nothing? they're in the IT and HR department. I'm in I/T. I don't make $70/hr. |
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Nothing better that reading more anti - union bullshit would really like to know what you all do what you make per hour etc. Unions made this country.It would be a cold day in hell before i would would for a dam jap car plant. blast on brothers about unions and this post . DU troll 
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You guys blast GM, but love Toyota, but you don't have a clue that Toyota uses lighter gauge sheet steal in their production cars, than their crash test vehicles. How do I know that? Because I worked in Engineering for GM. We tested competitors cars and found you guys are getting screwed over and you didn't even know it. 
If GM is so certain of that, why don't they take their data to the DOT and get Toyota fined and make them revalidate? I spent nearly 20 years working Automotive Supply, a big portion of it in Body Hardware Mechs and Toyota is WAY better on their dimensional capabilities for BIW. The Japanese Steel specs are usually more demanding also. Maybe Toyota uses lighter gauge sheet metal because they're actually concerned with the Curb Weight of their vehicles. Contrast that to Chrysler with their 4000lb Challenger.
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Wow, an efficient and highly productive factory. It's the Democrat's worst nightmare come true. Where are the rooms where the workers just sit and collect $70/hr for doing nothing? they're in the IT and HR department. I'm in I/T. I don't make $70/hr. you must not be slacking as well as you could be. 
(joke) |
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Can someone explain to me why US auto makers are going to other countries and other countries are coming here? The other countries have discovered "right to work" states. US manufacturers? not so much. This is a phenomenon that has always fascinated me... Why didn't the Big 3 just shut down every plant in a union state, and move to good states a long time ago? That, and refuse to buy parts from union states, would pretty much take care of the union trash. If they could flip a switch and do it instantly they probably would. However if they started the process they would probably get union interference (strikes) that would make the eventual payoff not good in the short term. |
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Could not have said it better myself. You don't see union members riding around in their own private jet all going to the same place. Well except for the ones being romanced by the Dems for their support and some money.The Lansing Grand River plant (CTS, SRX, STS) and Delta plant (Enclave, Outlook, Acadia) in Michigan operate just like this one. GM's CTS plant was the first to work this way and has been doing it like this for 10 years. And those are both UAW plants. 
The way of the "old" way of making cars is long gone and any plants holding on to old production processes are either gone or going. And the UAW does know this. You guys spout off a lot, but know very little.
The UAW has a lot of faults and God knows there needs some heads knocked together and changes in the Union leadership, but the UAW isn't "all" the fault of everything GM and American manufacturing is experiencing. If you knew how GM, along with other multi-national corporations, operated their books and were screwing the American public, you'd be pissed. You guys blast GM, but love Toyota, but you don't have a clue that Toyota uses lighter gauge sheet steal in their production cars, than their crash test vehicles. How do I know that? Because I worked in Engineering for GM. We tested competitors cars and found you guys are getting screwed over and you didn't even know it. How about those Hondas that don't deploy their air bags, huh? Yeah, you really got a deal there boy. But to be fair, how about those Pinto's, can't leave those out, even though that's way old news.
Ever see a 6 to 8 year old Toyota in the snow belt? If you did, I bet it looked like hell. Lot's of sheet metal cancer, because they use substandard sheet metal practices. The problem with GM is, they make mistakes on things that matter, but do very well on a lot of things that customers don't usually see or focus on but are very important. Perception is reality in a lot of cases, even though the truth is different. And GM's has a lot of problems because of the lack of keeping an eye on the dealers. GM's dealers are helping to kill GM too and management doesn't seem to give a crap. Plus, the dealers, screw over the corporation, causing higher prices on the cars. If you only knew how ALL of it worked. Open your eyes, read and learn and quit being so bi-polar. Gezzz. Hate because you want to hate, instead of learning and enlightenment only makes you a dumbass. A problem is a problem, but don't make more into it than it is, because you believe everything you hear from some talking head that has an agenda. And this automotive manufacture bail out is nothing more than the big 3 going after low cost loans, because they can't get them anywhere else. However, if they can't borrow money, they'll go under, because that's how business works these days. And did you know Rick Wagner want's to take 1 billion of the 10 billion GM is seeking and investing it in Brasil? Yep, that's right. And for everyone's information, GM production workers make the same as US based Toyota production workers, the financial talking heads on fox, cnn, etc., along with the finanical guru's, lump in pension benefits, causing them to say the wages are higher. Bet you didn't know, when a GM UAW member retires, their base retirement pay stays the same. If it's $2,000 per month after 30 years, it stays that way for the rest of the persons life. All cost of living benefits are in lump sums, so they don't accumulate like government workers do. So 30 years on UAW pension, your income is worth a whole lot less than it was when you first retired. I met an 85 year old lady who's GM pension was $77 per month. Yeah, that's a high legacy cost. The issue is, you have fewer GM/UAW workers to pay for LOTS of retirees. Same as the social security issues we have.
There is a LOT that you guys don't have a clue about. Oh yeah, one more...31% of American car company cars cost is because of lawsuit, lawyers, and legislation. Lawyers and politicians cost you more money than the UAW or less efficient practices. That's a fact.
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Nice way to Build Tanks, Fighting Vehicles, Fighter Jets.... Automate it has much as possible and lean out the operations as much as possible. Moving away from the union debate for a bit if we can... After we automate everything and lean out operations as much as possible, what do we really expect people to do to earn a living? Is there room enough for all of us to be doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers, IT workers, etc? Or do we expect a sizable percentage of our population to accept a significant decline in their standard of living? Is that going to have an effect on our society? Just curious. I know we can't expect companies to just be employment programs, but where are we headed? How do we think all of these affected people are going to vote? To some extent I have to wonder if free market radicals are not just utimately cutting their own throats in pushing us further towards socialism in this relentless quest for productivity and efficiency. I guess there are no easy answers. |
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Wow, an efficient and highly productive factory. It's the Democrat's worst nightmare come true. Where are the rooms where the workers just sit and collect $70/hr for doing nothing? they're in the IT and HR department. I'm in I/T. I don't make $70/hr. you must not be slacking as well as you could be.
(joke) You have to admit that the number of people who come online here during their own work hours to whine and bitch about lazy unions is rich in irony. |
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Quoted:Could not have said it better myself. You don't see union members riding around in their own private jet all going to the same place. Well except for the ones being romanced by the Dems for their support and some money.
Bullshit, the UAW National Leadership enjoy perks just as lavish as CEOs of a major Corp. They own a fucking resort in Northern MI for their 'seminars' plus their annual Vegas boondoggles. Big Labor is as much of a racket as anything else. |
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Wow, an efficient and highly productive factory. It's the Democrat's worst nightmare come true. Where are the rooms where the workers just sit and collect $70/hr for doing nothing? they're in the IT and HR department. I'm in I/T. I don't make $70/hr. you must not be slacking as well as you could be.
(joke) You have to admit that the number of people who come online here during their own work hours to whine and bitch about lazy unions is rich in irony. no argument there. |
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Nothing better that reading more anti - union bullshit would really like to know what you all do what you make per hour etc. Unions made this country.It would be a cold day in hell before i would would for a dam jap car plant. blast on brothers about unions and this post . Okay. Unions suck. They served a purpose at one time, but now they're just bloated, corrupt, self-perpetuating appendages of the Democratic Party. |
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I design factory automation. When i set a new piece of equipment in a UAW factory- the skilled trades know how to do their jobs; whether they want to is a different story. If a line does not meet union muster- for whatever reason- your equipment is DOA- if could be the finest piece of tooling ever made- it will never run. The union stalkers whose whole purpose is to get contractors written up, who are the only persons who know how to run the machine deserve to never work again. When you work on an extended installation- and you work with the same crew all week- whr the project calls for weekend work- you get the seniority tradesmen- who don't understand the project, you end up getting 3% efficiency for your double time dollar. This happens when you as a manufacturer are trying to collect any profit you might have made on the project. Then you have to clear the drawing and documentation nazi's. I haven't worked on a 90/10 project in two years. i've worked on medical and high tech projects only in those two years. Robots in factories are not whiz-bang anymore- employing them to safety standards is the art. Several years ago we built three duplicate systems. one stayed in the States. one went to India, the other went to Brazil. The line that stayed in the States, a local installation, was a start-up hand-holding nightmare. The line that went to India- never sent a assembly to market. The line that went to Brazil exceeded all requirements, and in time met the production requirements of all three systems. >: Sounds like B.S. to me on the UAW stopping a new install, they have NO feedback in the process unless it is a safety standard. I have done WAY to many myself, retired Millwright 33 years UAW, and PROUD. Never seen a outside contractor written up. I have seen them told what work is ours, and that was always the end of it. I have alot of respect for the outside guys, got along with 99% of them, they are just making a living too. In the old days, yes you got a different crew on week ends, overtime hours are set by "low overtime hours", NOT by senority. In the past 5-7 years, new installs are now done by "pilot crews", the same guys on the job start to finish. Each trade has a group leader, and they are responsible for the people on the job, and non team members DO NOT work on the install. As far as drawings, prints etc. etc. , take that up with the guy in Detroit behind a desk trying to justify HIS job by always "making changes". Guys like that are the REAL problem, never set foot on the job, but know it all, because "they say so" . Did the first robot install I ever did back in 1983, the robot line in AMC/RENAULT venture in Kenosha WI.. All programming issues then, my job was just build, level and mount. |