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Posted: 12/17/2001 6:04:31 AM EDT
Damm cheesehead Bambi Killers are getting some buck fever. c-rock STANLEY, Wis. -- The bullet, aimed at what looked like a white-tailed deer, struck its target with chilling precision. But as hunter Mike Berseth and his two buddies crossed a ravine and approached the lifeless figure, the thrill of the kill turned to shock and horror. Lying on a gravel road was not a deer, but Berseth's 47-year-old neighbor, Debbie Prasnicki, who had been walking her two dogs near wooded Otter Lake on that chilly Saturday afternoon. She was wearing a white stocking cap when Berseth's bullet pierced her temple. [lnk]http://chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/nation/chi-0112170213dec17.story?coll=chi%2Dnews%2Dhed[/lnk]
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 6:27:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 6:41:48 AM EDT
Surprisingly enough, the Trib story was fairly balanced. Included was this:
In fact, hunting accidents have steadily declined nationally during the last 30 years, in part because more hunters wear blaze orange clothing and take hunter education classes, said David M. Knotts, executive vice president of the International Hunter Education Association, based in Wellington, Colo. And while gunfire deaths draw the most attention, heart attacks and falls from tree stands are two of the biggest risks to a hunter's well-being.
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And:
Tim Goulet, 20, of Milwaukee is one of the lucky ones. He was hunting by himself Nov. 17 in Adams County and carelessly dropped his gun to the ground, shooting two toes off his left foot. Though he took hunting safety seriously before the accident, he said he has learned his lesson. "It's not a joke. I need to be more careful," said Goulet, who has been hunting for six years. "Every year my dad and I talk and go over the rules. This time we just didn't, and all of a sudden this happened." Safety classes preach three basic rules: Treat every firearm as if it's loaded, always point the muzzle in a safe direction and be absolutely sure of the target and what is beyond it. Following these three rules could eliminate 99.9 percent of the accidents
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Link Posted: 12/17/2001 6:55:10 AM EDT
He shot her from 170 feet at 3:30 pm - How can you not ID your target at less than 60 yards? Very sad...
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 7:24:50 AM EDT
Actually I think 8 deaths is a little inflated. If I remember correctly, one of those was a very elderly man who was around 90 years old who died of natural causes while sitting in a treestand. His family said that he'd hunted every year for his whole life. Not to be morbid but how cool is that, to die quietly doing something that you love? At least one of the other deaths is being investigated as possibly a pre-meditated murder. Needless to say, it's always bad when people shoot each other because they don't pay attention to basic safety.
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 7:34:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Muad_Dib: Actually I think 8 deaths is a little inflated. If I remember correctly, one of those was a very elderly man who was around 90 years old who died of natural causes while sitting in a treestand. His family said that he'd hunted every year for his whole life. Not to be morbid but how cool is that, to die quietly doing something that you love? At least one of the other deaths is being investigated as possibly a pre-meditated murder. Needless to say, it's always bad when people shoot each other because they don't pay attention to basic safety.
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My boss found his step father dead in bed at 90 when he was looking for his ID for the police he came across a 50 dollar bill it made him smile ..he said wouldnt it be nice if everyone could die at a ripe old age in there sleep with $50 dollars in their wallet....morbid but kinda nice to think of death that way...
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 7:42:37 AM EDT
OK, I'm not a hunter, but I am an expert rifleman (according to the Marine Corps) and I may be out of place by asking, but....... how the FU*K can you mistake a human for a deer??? What was this asshole thinking???
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 7:56:00 AM EDT
Yeah, hunters give us assualt weapons guys a bad name! What goes around comes around for those NRA hunters writing in defense of the '94 crime bill back then.
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 8:03:07 AM EDT
Okay, I just completed reading the full article. I think the guy who pulled the trigger should be prosecuted for reckless endangerment and manslaughter. At less than 60yards and in complete daylight, this hunter had to be shooting at a rustling of bushes without visual confirmation. Furthermore, it appears that the season was ending and he was trying to fill his tags and made a bad decision. Charge him and let a jury of peers sort out the details.
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 8:20:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2001 8:14:02 AM EDT by ar15bubba]
Yeah, hunters give us assualt weapons guys a bad name! What goes around comes around for those NRA hunters writing in defense of the '94 crime bill back then.
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Stator, are you kidding? Cause if not you disgust me. First of all you lump all hunters with this idiot in the article. Second, you say "us assault weapons guys". I am assuming you are meaning you and other full auto owners, because assault weapon's are select fire. You are being devisive with this statement, dividing "assault weapons guys" (<---this makes you sound like a bitch) vs Hunters. I have seen your kind in my service rifle club. We have lots of hunters, and then we have the hobbyist-hicapsemiauto havin-no bath takin-lets play dungeons and dragons-too tight black unicorn Tshirt-unkept beard and greasy hair topped-I only shoot paper targets-quasi anti hunter........wimps. Get outta my sight. I would rather have a hunter by myside working for gun rights or shooting jack booted thugs than an "assault weapons guy" anyday. later.
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 8:25:20 AM EDT
What in the hell was that guy shooting at? I've been shooting for over forty years. I understand that shooting accidents will happen but I also believe that virtually all are caused by human error. Someone screws up...someone gets hurt. Many activities are inherently dangerous and hunting is right up there near the top of the hit parade. One mistake and someone may pay with their life. I think I speak for most of us when I say, "You don't EVER pull the trigger until you can CLEARLY identify your target." 170 feet! Damn...that's pretty close...even for a black powder shooter Was it twilight? Had they been drinking alcohol? Even if it had been a deer...what the hell is he doing snapping off a shot at the tail? If he wounds the animal, then he has to chase it down and shoot again. This sounds like a totally bolluxed up shoot. He should never hunt again. Safety...safety...safety. Eternal Vigilance or Eternal Rest- [soapbox]
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 8:40:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Death_By_AR15: OK, I'm not a hunter, but I am an expert rifleman (according to the Marine Corps) and I may be out of place by asking, but....... how the FU*K can you mistake a human for a deer??? What was this asshole thinking???
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Absolutely DBAR15! I am a hunter, though I've not been deer hunting since my early twenties. THunted in Ohio, WVA, PA, for whitetails and out west for mule-ies. I gave up whitetails in the east after a couple "shoot at movement" incidents. We always hunted on private property, I'd hate to see what its like in public hunting areas. When Im back in Ohio during hunting season, I wear lot of orange if Im out in the woods. You'd think you'd be safe on your own land - you're not. I run into people on various parcels we own. Most of the time they've just wandered off friends land, but Ive had plenty who just think its fine to set up on "vacant" land. The funniest ones are the Asses who tell me to get off "their" land. [b]Confirm your target[/b]. These gents probably saw a flash of white through a stand of trees and let off. [b]Dont shoot across roads[/b]. She was walking on a road, so theres another rule violated. Not much else to go on in the article, but theres no reason this should have happened. As DBAR15 stated, these guys F***ed up royal. Hunting rules dont mirror range safety rules, but you still need to be smart. I still hunt regularly, so dont think Im damning hunters. I'd bet nearly 90% negligent injuries happen during deer season. Even then, the small percentage of hunters injured are nearly insignificant. Hunting IS inherently dangerous, otherwise whats the point. But its a damn shame because it seems almost every incident Ive read is avoidable if the rules are followed. Person killed when - Gun discharges "unexpectedly" - always amazed by that. There must be a lot of muzzle sweeping going on. Thought this was interesting. From the article. [i]Mistaken for game accounted for 48 percent of the hunter's judgment errors. Of those victims, 91 percent were not wearing hunter orange.[/i] Luck Alac There are no "accidental" discharges, only negligent ones. [url]http://www.zipcon.net/~kestral/firearms.html[/url]
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 8:47:21 AM EDT
Mistaken for game accounted for 48 percent of the hunter's judgment errors. Of those victims, 91 percent were not wearing hunter orange.
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So 9% of the victims were wearing orange and were [b]still[/b] mistaken for game? Yikes!
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 12:02:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed:
Mistaken for game accounted for 48 percent of the hunter's judgment errors. Of those victims, 91 percent were not wearing hunter orange.
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So 9% of the victims were wearing orange and were [b]still[/b] mistaken for game? Yikes!
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My thought exactly
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 12:20:56 PM EDT
In the early 80's, I lived downt the street from Marine Corps Base Quantico. If you had a VA hunting license, you could get a permit to hunt on the base. One day a Marine running along the road in a gray tee shirt was shot with a load of #6 by a guy who was out hunting squirrels!!!! Thank God he wasn't out hunting wildebeeste, and armed with a deadlier round. The Marine survived and probably won't join in any reindeer games unless he's allowed to wear his MOLLE vest.
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 12:22:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 12:38:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Death_By_AR15: OK, I'm not a hunter, but I am an expert rifleman (according to the Marine Corps) and I may be out of place by asking, but....... how the FU*K can you mistake a human for a deer??? What was this asshole thinking???
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Simple...he was not thinking, He'll be thinking about the fuck up for the rest of his life, though. This is exactly the reason I stay out of the woods during deer season, idiots with a firearm and 'Buck fever' ...Gib
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 1:37:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 1:48:30 PM EDT
This jerk broke the number one rule in hunting. Never shoot at anything you cannpt positively identify. However I have to say she was pretty stupid to be walking around in the bush with a white hat on during deer season. Second rule make sure you have your orange on, as a matter of fact it is the law here in Michigan.
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 2:10:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dale007: However I have to say she was pretty stupid to be walking around in the bush with a white hat on during deer season.
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I thought being shot for wearing the wrong colors was a problem that only plagues the inner cities. Sheesh.
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 2:33:53 PM EDT
I'm sure that guy DID positively ID his target... he was just WRONG! I don't care how careful you are, people are fallible and sometimes "shit happens". I'm not saying not to do everything possible to be safe, but realize that some pursuits are inherently dangerous, like driving for instance. I don't care if everyone follows every safety rule ever made, there's going to be glitches.
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 2:43:01 PM EDT
Disagree. He did NOT positively ID his target, hence the outcome here. AFAIK, that woman did absolutely NOTHING wrong here. You are right, though, that some activities are dangerous- but walking your dogs down a gravel road shouldn't have to be one of them. When you hunt, I think you DO assume a certain risk. This whole matter isn't going to help the cause of gun owners at all. Sad, very sad.
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 2:43:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 2:45:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 2:49:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 2:51:46 PM EDT
Yeah, this guy should definately be charged. I don't care how bad he feels, this is one example of a sensless accident that shouldn't have occured. Any just think, I passed up a shot on a deer a few weeks ago, while out bow hunting, because there were a few little limbs and twigs that I was afraid of hitting....At 22 yards! I could have hit the damn thing with a baseball, but I didn't want to take the chance of making a bad shot and not making a humane kill. If this guy had only been so careful. I can't imagine shooting at something that I couldn't even identify, especially if I knew that people were around and lived in the area. If they guys ran to the shooters house to get help, the houses had to be pretty close.....
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 2:54:49 PM EDT
This is why Yankee's should not own guns.... Only shoot when you have identified what you are shooting at and then be sure the bullet will impact into a safe back stop if you miss. Simple egh!. This way you will not have to track a deer all day, or kill someone.
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 4:01:43 PM EDT
Well, geez, if yankees hadn't owned guns, we'd all still be British! [:D]
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 4:09:55 PM EDT
I am sorry to say this, but most of you are so full of that if you burped you would be shit able to smell you a mile away. How do any of you know what that man saw on his fatefull day? I mean, SHUT THE FUCK UP. You are all-stupid and know nothing of his situation. Were any of you there? Maybe the dog was brown and was standing in a position in relation to her that made up an image of a deer. She had on a white hat and was not wearing orange. TV you enter the woods during hunting e season with out orange and wearing a white hat you deserve to get your damn head blown off. You are just plane stupid. I dont want to sound like I am condoning what happen but lets face it I wasn’t there, you wasn’t there and the only people that know what happened is GOD, Him, The dead lady, and his 2 buddies if they was present. continue on next page
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 4:11:19 PM EDT
contiued from last page AS for the rest of you that wasn’t there and think this man should go to jail, let me ask you this. Lets you are change scopes on your rifle, (A bolt action). So you put it down in your vise, point BL in safe direction, and the first thing you do is, as I do, pull the bolt out of it. That way you know it is not loaded and you can sight through the BL to bore sight it. You change scopes and adjusted the crosshairs on object that you picked out, A Street light down the street. Now you placed the bolt back in the gun. You are dreaming about that shoot on your next Woodchuck hunt or that nice buck you are hunting. So you look through your scope on your gun. You are sitting at the kitchen table sighting out the window on that street light with the gun still in the vise. You peer through that new scope and line it up perfect on the light and you place your finger on the trigger just see what your pull will look like through your new scope. As you squeeze that trigger every so gentle, you are waiting for that snap, but instead a roaring boom and the sound of shattering glass befalls you. You have the dumbest look on your face (like fuck, what did I just do) you forgot to lock in the magwell and it was loaded with not a round in the chamber so nothing came out when you first opened the bolt. Duh, that’s because you had the gun loaded the last time and just pushed down the shells and closed the bolt on an empty round. That way, when that damn pesky fox that is into your trash all the time, you can bust him. But that fox was ran over a couple months later and you forgot in your busy life that you had a loaded gun on the top shelf of your gun rack. You know the one, over your bed that you keep your AR15 in, a nice semi shotgun, and a your handgun that you use for self-defense with its speed loader of loaded mag beside it. Yes you just had an accident that you thought was never going to happen to you. I know how it is, for I used to think like you and what I just typed only happened to me a year ago. I thought I did everything right, took bolt out and no rounds came out. While I was installing the scope I never once saw and rounds in the magwell, and I had blown that street light right out. It is a good thing someone wasn’t walking by when I pulled the trigger. Just think if the bullet passing through the window would have changed it travel and struck someone. I would be just a guilty as he is. I am the one behind the rifle and it was my doing. I learned a good lesson. It only cost me a grand for new glass for the picture window. Went to all my neighbors houses that night and checked on them to make sure I didn’t kill anyone. Funny thing, no one heard a think that night. So I sat the next morning glued to the TV and with the local radio on to see if anyone was shoot that night. Thank GOD, No one died that night. All I will say is just dont judge anyone. And if you get a chance to talk to someone that you see with a gun just remind him or her in a nice way about being safe. And try to be safe yourself. God knows I was trying to be. continued on next page
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 4:12:26 PM EDT
continued from previous page And I am sorry to all that I offended with the start of this letter. I just get pissed when you judge some one for something they honestly did not mean. One day or another you will all have a mishap and I hope you get off as easy as I did, with only the shame of knowing how stupid you was for not looking a little more harder and not think, I know its not loaded I just had the bolt out of it. Damn that is a really smooth rifle, I never felt that round slip in the chamber. To all have a safe night
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 4:13:49 PM EDT
How dare she walk next to a road 60 yds away from a "hunter" that shoots at a flash of white. Betcha no one in that community dares to drive a brown car, what with all them deadeyes out in the woods.
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 4:22:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mrassII: You are all-stupid. You are just plane stupid. continue on next page
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Estupidos! Not me right?
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 4:34:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 4:46:13 PM EDT
I agree with you. HE did intend to fire his weapon, But he did not tend to flat out take anothers life. He made a bad judgement call and he will have to live with that, And yes he should have to pay for whathe did, just as I did. It only cost me a grand, nothing comparred to him. Fore he will live forever in his mind of that he has snuffed out a friend, a neighbor. that is a hell far greater than putting him in jail or making him pay a large sum of money. Do you think GOD, himself, would say; ok you killed her, accident or not, Now you are going to hell for your sin. No he would forgive you and think no less of you.
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 4:48:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2001 4:41:27 PM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
God knows his target. Reckless is a word that comes to mind.
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 5:31:21 PM EDT
Yes, I am a hunter. And yes, I have had accidents. Why just the other day I was going out the door of a place I had been a hundred times and stumbled missing the step. At the time it happened, my mind was POSITIVE there was no step. I can see how this guy could have been positive that he saw a deer too. That's terrible, but the human mind can be fooled. Else nobody would make a living as a magician or a pickpocket. Being careful helps, but we will never eliminate all accidents. If you think this guy intentionally whacked her, you know more than anyone else. I'm sure he THOUGHT he knew what his target was and THOUGHT he knew what was behind it. Or maybe he didn't - we'll never know.
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 7:25:00 PM EDT
Just so we are all on the same page here; From the article above. [i]Prasnicki's case was especially disturbing because she was on a [b]public road[/b] in daylight[/i] [i]It was her first walk in two weeks because she'd never walk around during the hunting season," said Hazuga, who wants to start a scholarship fund in her name. "She had no idea there was even a [muzzleloader] season.[/i] Garmentless - I absolutely believe he thought he was shooting at a deer. I also believe that he [b]did not[/b] have enough sensory information to come to that conclusion. You have to do better than THINK you know what you are shooting at. I dont have anything to go on here but whats in the article so Ill not argue with any vehemence or surety. BTW I dont think anyone here thinks that he "intentionally whacked her." This may have happened regardless, but I think he showed poor judgment. I do sympathize, but think he made an egregious error. As I said above, I think he shot at a flash of white . Unfortunately he's a good shot if thats the case. My experience leads me to believe that many hunters shoot at movement or sound or color. Why? Because Ive seen it. Often. In this case I think he did the same. Why? Because he shot at 50 yds. 50 yds! At 50 yds if his view was not obscured - by brush perhaps - he absolutely should have been able to determine what it was he was shooting at. If it was obscured, as it must have been, – he should not have shot. But I am not certain – not at all. Big Bear - As far as the car analogy - not apt no - but even if this HAD been [i]willful[/i] negligence, which the above is not, involving a [b]car[/b] we'd not hear one word of it. Last Deer season in Wisconsin hunting accidents were 3/hundred thousand - all hunting 7/hundred thousand. Auto rates are 18.4 per hundred thousand for fatalities alone - not just accidents. Gun involved gets different handling. Hunting might be dangerous, but I still feel safer in the woods than on the road. MrAssII - NO response - just like to say your name. Luck Alac Only one child was was killed by firearms accident in 1997 in the state of Wisconsin, the latest year I could find compiled. They should take a gun to school not a bus.
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 7:58:30 PM EDT
hang the bastard. I find when I'm in the woods during deer season, that I'm on the lookout for other hunters as much as looking for deer. If I see ANY other orange, I head home. I wonder how many "accidents" are just plain murder? With the decline in hunter "accidents" dropping so drastically over the last 30 years, I have to wonder what has had the most impact, hunter safety courses or forensics. Hang him.
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 9:52:34 PM EDT
The problem is not with the true hunter who has hunted most types of game most of his life and takes great pride in taking his game humanly and with one shot if possible, the problem is with the once a year hunter and those hunters who only shoot a rifle once a year and then only to check the sight of their hunting rifle. One of the problems is that a lot of hunters are not shooters, all they want a rifle for is hunting and they do not like shooting in general. I have been at my club shooting many times right before dear season when some hunters show up, some of whom are not even members but just the guest of a member. And I can tell that these hunters do not know much about shooting, in fact one of them an older man asked me how to adjust the sights of his rifle, he wanted to know which way to move the rear sight to move his group right. One of my friends is a deer hunter and he sights in his rifle off hand without using any kind of a rest he says that since he will not have a rest to shoot the deer he does not need to use a rest to sight in. A few weeks ago I was watching a high power match and when the match was over the club had a hunter sight in day, and I can tell you that most of the people sighting in their hunting rifles did not know enough about shooting to be hunting. Just call me stupid or narrow minded or whatever but I feel that a person should first learn how to really shoot and I don’t mean just good enough to keep your shots on the paper at 50 yds, before he even thinks about getting a hunting license. Safe and competent firearms handling is just like being a safe and competent driver it is not something you should have to consciously think about all the time but should be instinctive. The way to be an instinctive shooter or driver is through practice, practice and more practice, and you can not do that if you do not go to the range and actually shoot your rifle, or shotgun. Some hunters have been known to purchase a rifle or shotgun right before deer season and then sell it right after deer season. These hunters should not be permitted to hunt. There is not a Right To Hunt in the Bill Of Rights and people should be required to know how to really shoot before they are issued a hunting license. If a person is not willing to spend the time to learn to shoot then they should not expect to be issued a hunting license. VINCE AUT MORIRE (Conquer or Die)
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 11:17:49 PM EDT
I say the judge should give the guy a choice: jail or join the FBI HRT.
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 11:25:53 PM EDT
Imbroglio - wanna go hunting?
Link Posted: 12/17/2001 11:57:48 PM EDT
I don't see how ANY of us can rush to any judgement about this guy based on nothing but a brief newspaper article. We don't have any idea as to how the terrain, lighting, atmospheric conditions, vegetation, etc appeared to this hunter. It's not inconceivable to think that he may seen what appeared to be a deer through or in in the brush or heavy vegetation and suddenly saw what he thought was a flagging whitetail. Public roads don't always mean a paved, 4 lane highway. They can also be some pretty rough, unmaintained rural roads, too. It is possible that this could just be the culmination of a series of random coincidences that, when brought together under some rare circumstance, simply added up to a shitty situation. Maybe he's guilty of negligence and maybe he's not. That will be for the DA to ascertain whether or not the evidence warrants a charge and, if so, a jury to ultimately decide. At this point, the only things we can be certain of are: A) He will lose his hunting privileges, perhaps forever. B) He may be convicted in criminal court and find himself incarcerated in prison. C) He will probably be sued in civil court and lose most of, if not everything, he has. D) Even though unintentional, he will have to live with the guilt of shedding innocent blood for the rest of his life.
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