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Posted: 12/4/2001 9:25:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2001 1:07:39 PM EDT by CounterStrike]
First off the guy was a draft dodger. Thats a complex issue and I'd rather not get into wether its right or wrong. But let me just say that at if nothing else don't slap Vietnam vets in the face by constantly touting Ali as a great American hero. Ali was voted sportsman of the century and it pissed some people off. Besides the draft issue Ali was an athelete who ran his mouth, put down his opponents, and gloated in his victories. This may have been entertaining and he was charismatic, but certainly not what most people regard as sportsmanship. Now that Ali is suffering from parkinsons there is this overwellming need for the media to put him on a pedastal. He was on the cover of last month's readers digest, and issue about American heros and featuring NYFD NYPD and Ali's dopey face. Inside, in his interview he talks about how great he was, how he has no regrets, and goes on and on about the superiority of black atheletes. Such a double standard. If a white person said shit like this guy does they would be branded a racist. Look I don't hate Ali, though I'm too young to remember his fights I respect the fact that he was regarded as "the great one". But today he recieved the olympic torch and was the first to pass it off. I guess I just don't feel that such an arrogant, racist (maybe too strong), draft dodger should be the man who represents the US to the world.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 9:44:55 AM EDT
He was not a draft dodger, due to the fact that he did not become muslim to avoid the draft, he was / is a man of convictions when it comes to the teachings of his religion. He did not run to Canada, he did not hide and he took the punishment of losing his title. As far as running his mouth, thats Ali, he liked to talk the trash, but in the ring he backed it up 100 %. I think if you were older and were around for he fought you'd see things differently. He was a showman, he knew what to say and when to say it. I think a lot of folks today like Howard Stern picked up on this, Also since you mentioned you were not around at the time of his fights then you were not around during the 60's and 70's when the race issue / riots were going on , that has to be taken into context in what he was saying back then and the way the country was. You should rent some of the Ali/Frazier fight tapes or the movie When We Were Kings. He is a far cry more a champion than that rapist Tyson ever was or will be. -roger
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 9:46:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 9:52:07 AM EDT
He was not a draft dodger, due to the fact that he did not become muslim to avoid the draft, he was / is a man of convictions when it comes to the teachings of his religion.
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Islam is a religion of pacifism?
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 9:55:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed: Islam is a religion of pacifism?
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Uh Oh.. Here we go again ! [:D] FWIW -- I don't know much about sports, but my dad agrees with CounterStrike 100%.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:00:29 AM EDT
Sick of Will Smith? OK. Sick of Ali? Impossible. The thing with Ali was that he would beat down the other guy with his brain as well as his fists. Rent [u]When We Were Kings[/u]. The draft in the 60's was an archaic travesty against society anyway. Ali refused to participate and took it like a man.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:01:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed:
He was not a draft dodger, due to the fact that he did not become muslim to avoid the draft, he was / is a man of convictions when it comes to the teachings of his religion.
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Islam is a religion of pacifism?
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No, but it isn't a religion of going to war just because some little rinky dink country wants to convert some other little rinky dink country to communism which is what Vietnam was. Actually, Vietnam was a way for the US to fight Russia without actually going to war with each other. The same thing with Afghanistan the first time in the war with the Russians when Osama was on our side. Don't get me wrong, I'm not promoting any religion or anything. I'm just pointing out that there is a difference in standing up for what you believe in and standing up for what somebody else believes in. Michael
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:02:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:07:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CounterStrike: First off the guy was a draft dodger.
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As some of the other posters have said, Ali refused to be drafted, and took his punishment like a man without running and hiding. While I don't agree with his refusing to serve, he did have the courage of his convictions and the willingness to pay the price for them. There is something to be said for that. A heck of a lot more honorable than Bill Clinton, who dodged the draft through a variety of sleazy shenanigans.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:13:05 AM EDT
Guys, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that he was bad or wrong for refusing the draft. Again it is a complex issue. I just feel that going out of your way to promote him as a hero might not be in good taste. A hell of a boxer, yes. A great showman, that too. I feel sorry for him in his current state also. I certainly don't wish him malice.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:13:30 AM EDT
Mohammad Ali is a courageous man for remaining in the public eye. If his disease and how it makes him look make some people uneasy, that's understandable. I have empathy for the man and I think he's always been a moral person and is truly loved by his family and friends. So, no I am not "sick" of Ali, it does make me consider his life when I see him.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:14:23 AM EDT
I'm old enough to remember him fighting. I remember the crap he was dealt when he changed his name from Cassius Clay to Ali. I remember the cries of "draft dodger" that were flung about at the time. And I agreed. But he backed it all up, walked the walk as well as he talked the talk. I became a believer LONG ago. It has NOTHING to do with Parkinsonism. It has EVERYTHING to do with taking a stand for what you believe, and fighting the government and public opinion to be allowed to live as your conscience dictates. The fact that he was a great boxer is irrelevant to his fame, in my eyes.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:16:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CounterStrike: First off the guy was a draft dodger. That's a complex issue and I'd rather not get into wether its right or wrong. But let me just say that at if nothing else don't slap Vietnam vets in the face by constantly touting Ali as a great American hero. As a Vietnam Vet I never thought of Ali as being a draft dodger. He took a stand, I believe on his religious convictions. It's cost him at the height of his career, his freedom, his crown, and a lot of heat. He did his time and never whined. That's more than I can say for most 'Draft Dodgers' of the era...Remember, he could have lived anywhere in the world, very comfortably. The first reunion of my unit was in Philly in '95', and walking out of the hotel one morning and I saw him sitting on a bench outside the hotel with a million kids around him,all asking for autographs. He smiled, and signed them all, though his hands shook from Parkinson's. Most of the current crop of sports 'hero's will sign a kids autograph's for $10 a pop. I wanted to go over to him and shake his hand...I admire a man willing to stand up for what he believes. IMHO, the man was a Champ.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:17:40 AM EDT
I agree with rogerb. Ali knew the consequences and followed his convictions. He stood up when others would have done what was easiset or safest. To me that is not a draft-dodger. Now Clinton.... he WAS a draft-dodger
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:23:58 AM EDT
Definitely a Draft dodger. Stand up for his convictions BS. He was safe in prison with his Muslim/felon brothers. Just a loud mouth POS.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:30:44 AM EDT
We do like to feel comfortable about our athletes - look at the difference between a Barry Sanders and a Randy Moss. One guy just puts his head down, does his job and that's all he cares about. The other jiggles his ass in front of the TV cameras every time he catches a ball. What makes one a better American than the other? Most people don't mind if their athletes celebrate after making a great play, they just don't want to be made to feel scared or inadequate. That's why its not OK for an Oakland Raider to make a slashing motion across his own throat after performing a basic tackle - but it IS OK for Brett Favre to rip off his helmet and jump up and down like he's been sipping anti-freeze down at the local Kiwanis' square dance. To most folks, that's unoffensive, that's all white.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:46:48 AM EDT
I'm glad I asked this question here because I have got some responses that have made me think. However alot of my dad's buddies came back from Vietnam all f*cked up, so to say that he didn't take the safe way out might be reaching, I mean last I knew he still had both his arms and legs. I do agree though that it is a good point that he didn't run away and took the consequences. But lets not fool ourselves either, alot of average Joes didn't have the celebrity power to stand and fight the government in front of the TV cameras. As far as being at the height of his career and losing the belt, hind sight shows that came out ok. If he went there was a very real possibility he might never fight again. The odds favored him staying as opposed to going from the persepective of his career. Anyway all I'm saying is that he keeps popping up at the olympics in his red white and blue jumpsuit to carry or light the torch. Regardless of his personal resolve, his charisma, or his boxing ability, alot of vets cringe when he is representing them to the world.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:58:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dale007: Definitely a Draft dodger. Stand up for his convictions BS. He was safe in prison with his Muslim/felon brothers. Just a loud mouth POS.
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Prisons are not fun to be in even if you're with friends... [:|]
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 11:39:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 11:45:33 AM EDT
Sugar Ray Robinson can make a claim to being The Greatest. Sugar Ray Leonard is not far behind. Ali is right up there, but I'd put him behind either of the "Sugars." Anyway, here's something of an OT side issue: Remember that Vietnam came on the heels of the civil rights demonstrations/riots, Bull Connor, fire hoses, "the back of the bus," separate lunch counters, bathrooms and drinking fountains. How would you take it, to be black and subjected to all those things, then be drafted and expected to lay it on the line for the same country that treats you as an inferior second class citizen and is giving rich white boys college deferrments?
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 11:55:07 AM EDT
Both Ali and Slick Willie were draft dodgers in my book. In my book both were cowards. How could a prize fighter be a coward ? It's one thing to face another person in the ring whose skills are inferior to yours and quite another to face the "little man" with the rifle. There's also those no good, sorry honkey's from Louisville who financially supported Clay. Clay took the money until he no longer needed them and then demanded his release. They gave the release to him - an outright release. Rotten no good racist pigs that they were not.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 11:58:46 AM EDT
Anyway, here's something of an OT side issue: Remember that Vietnam came on the heels of the civil rights demonstrations/riots, Bull Connor, fire hoses, "the back of the bus," separate lunch counters, bathrooms and drinking fountains. How would you take it, to be black and subjected to all those things, then be drafted and expected to lay it on the line for the same country that treats you as an inferior second class citizen and is giving rich white boys college deferrments?
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But what if that same country had also given you the opportunity to become extremely wealthy and famous? Ali would never have become a boxing superstar if he'd grown up amongst his Muslim "brothers" in Saudi Arabia or his black "brothers" in Liberia.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 12:04:12 PM EDT
Here's a nice blurb on Cassius Clay - "Muhammad Ali was too fast, too smart, and too skilled to be handled in the ring, and his skills in the ring along with the negative criticism he was receiving as an outspoken member of the Nation of Islam made him one of the most notable athletes of the 1960s. "But Ali had another battle to face; in 1966, with the Vietnam War growing, the military needed more draftees. Years earlier, the ex-Cassius Clay was not qualified to serve in the armed forces after failing military examination twice, but because more draftees were need to serve in the war, the qualifying score was lowered, making Ali eligible for the draft. As a dedicated fighter who did not want to end his career and as a Muslim who did not have "no quarrel with them Viet-Cong," he refused to be drafted. "Many Americans felt that Ali betrayed him for betraying his country; those who already felt that they were betrayed when Cassius Clay became Muhammad Ali were enraged at this "loudmouthed draft-dodging Black racist." The sports writers had a field day criticizing him, saying that he was a disgrace to America and to the boxing world. After his brutal victory over Ernie Terrell, in which he was accused of thumbing Terrell in the eye and in which he demanded that he call him by his Muslim name, the battle between Ali and the Armed Forces intensified. Many people supported Ali and picketed outside the United States Armed Forces Examining and Entrance Station where the fighter was to be inducted as a draftee. But when CASSIUS MARCELLUS CLAY was called, the man refused to step forward as he was required to do. After being warned that he would face severe penalities for refusing to cooperate, Ali still refused to step up when CASSIUS MARCELLUS CLAY was called. "The day that Ali refused to be inducted into the United States Armed Forces, a previous decision for the World Champ to be stripped of his title by the New York State Boxing Commision was ready to take place. Ali was indicted on May 8, 1967 by a federal grand jury in Houston, Texas. He still disagreed strongly about taking part in the Vietnam War, and many acquaintances and fellow athletes like Jim Brown, Bill Russell, and Kareem Abdul-Jabar admired Ali's strong stance. But Ali was convicted in the trial vs. the U.S. armed forces on June 19, and although his five-year prison sentence and ten-thousand-dollar fine was overturned , his boxing passport was terminated, and Heavyweight Champ was stripped of his belt. He was no longer the title holder, but to the true boxing fans, Muhammad Ali was still the true World Champ." Wait a minute, if he was 'too smart' how come he failed the military entrance exam twice? Eric The(CouldThe'Fix'HaveBeenIn?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 12:08:07 PM EDT
Ali - Greatest fighter that ever walked into a ring. End of discussion. If you want to complain about a fighter, complain about a CONVICTED RAPIST/FELON who is allowed to fight and earn MILLIONS of dollars! If any of us had a misdemeanor conviction, we could NEVER even get a job, much less earn millions. A fucking rapist! Spend time bitching about a fighter who had nothing but "bitch came to my room late" as a reason for his slip up. His name does not deserve to mentioned in the same post as Ali's. My 1/50th of a dollar.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 12:26:48 PM EDT
Ali, was he the greatest? Ali, was he a draft dodger? Ali, was he a great boxer/ showman? Ali, was he good for boxing? regardless to what you have answered to the above questions, Ali was good for the sport of boxing, a much better representative than we have now, served three years in prison for religious beliefs, did not dodge the draft, was a greta boxer / showman and probably was the greatest in and out of the ring. Due to your young age it is very clear to see that you look at life with blinders on......
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 12:33:50 PM EDT
Disregarding all the other arguments, how can any boxer claim to be pacifist/non-violent? That has always stuck me as oxymoronic.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 12:38:35 PM EDT
regardless, he'd still be able to kick your ass even in his state now.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 12:41:54 PM EDT
D-R-A-F-T D-O-D-G-E-R. (Boxing skills ? The best heavy weight ever.)
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 12:57:55 PM EDT
Counterstrike, there was another thing going on in the 60's as well, Most white middle and upper class males could find a way out of the draft or at the very least out of Vietnam, this left the black draftee getting the most vietnam tours , now if i was black in the 60's I would already have been discouraged by the lack of civil rights in my country , that coupled with many of my kind coming home in body bags it is easy to see why so many high profile blacks took exception to the war and the draft. If regards to ali and the present olympic stuff, most of this is just media play , it looks good to have an american muslim getting accolades for the press right now.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 1:05:46 PM EDT
86.3% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasian (includes Hispanics); 12.5% (7,241) were African-American; 1.2% belonged to other races Source: [url]http://www.longwayhome.net/references.htm#Race[/url]
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 1:25:20 PM EDT
I remember the Ali/Frazer fight and most everyone was for Frazer. Partly due to Ali's draft dodging and back then his religious conversion. Good thing Frazer won the first time.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 1:49:01 PM EDT
Renamed, use of actual facts can cause you deep trouble.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 2:14:53 PM EDT
Ali - Great boxer, Greater Self promoter. A human with some personal faults, like all of us. Not a draft doger. He was orginally classified as 4-F because at the time he was functionally illterate. When he became a visible to the public, for what ever reason, he was reclassified A-1, but he was not more literate than before. He protested, fought it in the courts and WON. He has always been one of my hero's and always will. I don't usually flame but... anyone who doesn't like it can [-!-]
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 2:23:43 PM EDT
Big-Mike, You got balls and I'm with you. I won't mention your namesake when it comes to boxing, but Ali is and always will be "The Greatest". Now, all you kiddoes that weren't alive when Cassius became Mohammad or Lew became Kareem, I'll give you credit for hating what people had told you was a draft dodger. I don't like draft dodgers as a rule. Things weren't the same then. Ali had more than just religious reasons, and he has served his time. However, he has never been convicted of rape, and many trash-talking athletes of today owe a great debt to him as the guy who really knew how to work the media.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 3:06:01 PM EDT
I do not think Ali was a draft dodger. While I do not agree with what he did, he took a stand and did his time even knowing the consequences. He could have gone along with the draft, but there is no way he would have seen 1 minute of combat. The war was not very popular back then and "Boxing Superstar Cassius Clay Shot by VC" would not make a very good headline. He obviously did not do it to save his own skin or because he was afraid. If he had gone in, it most likely would not have hurt his career the way prison did. He may have even had the occasional fight while serving. With that being said, I do not think that athletes should be glorified as heros. We can celebrate their physical accomplishments, but that does not make them heros in my book. What somebody does off of the field is what counts. In this regard, Ali has become a hero. Despite the showmanship and other self promotion he has done alot for many people. I respect his accomplishments, and do not think the attention he has received lately is undeserved.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 3:08:44 PM EDT
I think Ali was the king of the ring and the king of the hype. He fought anybody there. Even Check Wepner. (The Bayonne Bleeder) Ali was what he was, thanks to Howard Cosell and other media people. He made boxing interesting. He evaded the draft and paid the price. In the past several years, he really embraced his religion, his name known all over the world. As for draft dodging, how about Sylvester Stallone? He was a draft dodging phoney and made several million bucks playing heroes. Another phoney rap goes to Viet Nam era people for draft dodging, as if it never happened before. Check the record. WWII had it's fair share of that.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 3:44:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRYG: Disregarding all the other arguments, how can any boxer claim to be pacifist/non-violent? That has always stuck me as oxymoronic.
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Ask your self how anyone in the Army claim to be non-violent,does that strike you as an oxymoron? It should. Some of the bravest solders I ever met were CO medic's they went into battle with a trauma bag, and their belief that to take a human life was wrong. BTW, the medic is the guy is up and running when everyone else is trying to crawl into their helmet's....Big nads,great lads, that paid an awful price.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 3:45:51 PM EDT
Mohammed Ali is a coward, that's why he wouldn't fight Cassius Clay
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 4:22:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Avtomat: Mohammed Ali is a coward, that's why he wouldn't fight Cassius Clay
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Avtomat, I hope you are joking with that comment.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 4:43:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ak_ar_man:
Originally Posted By Avtomat: Mohammed Ali is a coward, that's why he wouldn't fight Cassius Clay
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Avtomat, I hope you are joking with that comment.
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I think its obvious I'm not. [whacko][moon]
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 7:13:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2001 7:06:33 PM EDT by Renamed]
Originally Posted By gib187th:
Originally Posted By LARRYG: Disregarding all the other arguments, how can any boxer claim to be pacifist/non-violent? That has always stuck me as oxymoronic.
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Ask your self how anyone in the Army claim to be non-violent,does that strike you as an oxymoron? It should. Some of the bravest solders I ever met were CO medic's they went into battle with a trauma bag, and their belief that to take a human life was wrong. BTW, the medic is the guy is up and running when everyone else is trying to crawl into their helmet's....Big nads,great lads, that paid an awful price.
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Ali didn't claim to be a pacifist. His argument, as I understand it, is that as a Muslim he could only fight in a jihad (holy war). He claimed to be ready to go to war if Elijah Muhammad, the leader of the Nation of Islam, gave the order. (Does that suggest that he'd be giving aid and comfort to the Taliban right now if he could? Maybe.) It's odd that this argument convinced the Supreme Court to overturn his conviction, but somehow it did.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:22:58 PM EDT
Parkinsons disease? Thats whats wrong with the COWARD. I thought he had a permament transistor in his ear and he was in a time warp doing the robot to Michael Jackson songs. I guess I'm not that sensative to the coward. I have as much feelings for him as I do for Jane the bitch Fonda and those three jackasses that won medals in Mexico City in the sixties. I remember them and saw them and I won't forget. I normally don't cuss but those three bring out the worst in me.
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 6:36:10 AM EDT
"World Champion" That says alot. How many of you raggin' on Ali have ever been a world champion *anything*? It's easy to criticize from the cheap seats...
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 6:48:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CounterStrike: Guys, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that he was bad or wrong for refusing the draft. Again it is a complex issue. I just feel that going out of your way to promote him as a hero might not be in good taste. A hell of a boxer, yes. A great showman, that too. I feel sorry for him in his current state also. I certainly don't wish him malice.
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Look the draft is a red herring, how many people avoided it by going to Canada etc. Ali took boxing from a backroom sport to a much more accepted sport. He is probably why a lot of the boxers today can earn the money that they do. Ali is a man of class. He never seemed to get involved in the excesses that many sport or entertainment stars do...........
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 7:03:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/5/2001 6:58:07 AM EDT by Renamed]
Ali took boxing from a backroom sport to a much more accepted sport. He is probably why a lot of the boxers today can earn the money that they do.
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And in doing so, he helped to line the pockets of Don King, who's been doing his best to drive boxing back into the gutter. [BD] I do give Ali credit for being a decent man (outside of his trash talking).
Link Posted: 12/5/2001 7:07:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/5/2001 7:01:47 AM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
Probably more than a little true, but the "promoters" have always made their money, Ali helped the "talent" get more of a cut. Yeah but his trash talking was clever, funny, etc. not like some of the witless quips, or exchanges you hear most of the time. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. I'm so bad I make medicine sick.
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