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Posted: 12/3/2001 2:20:18 PM EDT
I live in a small town 40 miles outside of Boston. The cops in the town are for the most part good cops. I have a 'Class 1' license to carry concealed. I found out that the police had tagged our weapons to our addresses in their computer data base, and the screen popped up in large bold 'blood' red print that the occupant was armed. I heard that this in fact was shown to the school children in their visit to the police station. The logic of this puzzles me. Let me state first that I was a line MP in the service, and did a 20 month combat tour in armed attack helicopters during the Vietnam 'Conflict'. Here's the rub...There's at least two thing wrong with this picture,one is that a policy such as this puts me unnecessarily in harms way...an example, a couple of years ago my wife was away and a friend was down from Buffalo. I live on 4 acres out in the country and cranked up my Bose 901's a bit. I hear my Shepard bark and I go to the front door and on the doorstep is a cop with his weak side towards me, I suddenly realized that he had his sidearm out of his holster. He was nice enough,and I turned the music down. But the fact that he felt the need to unholster his piece, left me thinking about what the hell he thought he was dealing with, Pretty Boy Floyd. Back to the police computer...What the hell is the logic of this? If I were chief trying to protect my men, I would tell them never assume a person is unarmed,period. Act accordingly. That in fact such a program poses a double danger, one in lulling an officer in to a false sense of security if 'GUN OWNER' doesn't pop up; and two, getting my ass shot off by a nervous over reactive police officer...the 'I saw something bright and shiny'....defense. We are not the enemy...why do I feel like one because I choose to own a firearm ? 'De Frenchman' RVN Class 66-68
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 2:50:42 PM EDT
Gib, In Texas, your license plate equates to you and if you have a CHL and the officer runs your plate prior to approaching your car, he'll know that you are licensed. My CHL instructor said "Keep both hands where he can see them and show him the license along with your DL (per the law) and cooperate and it should not be a problem" However, you wonder if like my kid is driving my Expedition and does something stupid like get out of the car reaching into his back pocket quickly to pull out his wallet, or jumps back in and goes into the glove box to get insurance papers? Makes you think?
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 3:07:42 PM EDT
The logic is "Its for the cops safety". But that ignores mounds of data to the contrary. Basically, the logic is flawed, and it is a bad policy. you gave some good examples of why that is.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 3:32:57 PM EDT
Vehicle license plates in Tx are not cross linked with CCW permits, however, drivers licenses and state issued identification cards are. Notice that the cop doesn't ask about your weapon when they first approach your vehicle, but only after they've obtained your drivers license and run it through the computer system. If I contact someone and a computer check reveals a CHL, it actually makes me feel safer. I assume everyone I contact has a firearm but the presence of a CHL tells me right away that this person has no prior criminal record.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 4:13:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 5:30:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Txsguy: Vehicle license plates in Tx are not cross linked with CCW permits, however, drivers licenses and state issued identification cards are. Notice that the cop doesn't ask about your weapon when they first approach your vehicle, but only after they've obtained your drivers license and run it through the computer system. If I contact someone and a computer check reveals a CHL, it actually makes me feel safer. I assume everyone I contact has a firearm but the presence of a CHL tells me right away that this person has no prior criminal record.
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Txsguy has it right on the money that Texas does NOT CCW information on someone's registration return. Maybe this is just my computer system but if I just run the DL of a person I will not be notified if they have a CCW or not. I have to run them by name and date of birth to get the CCW information.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 5:41:17 PM EDT
Gib187th, In the people’s republik you are not required to state that you have a LTC-A. I was told not to tell them that you are carrying at all until you are asked to step out of the vehicle. If that is the case then just tell them that you are licensed to carry and are currently doing so. Don’t say that you have a gun; they will know what you mean by LTC and don’t put your hand near it. As far as the info being in some data base: this is the land of Kennedy and “I own a shotgun” Rosenthal. Just my $0.02
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 5:49:28 PM EDT
If known, dispatch always advises us about Weapons, Alcohol, Drugs, or Mentals.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 6:00:12 PM EDT
jadams951, It is just your system. A TX DL return on a CHL holder (or a soundex)comes back with a warning printout that the person is a CHL holder. This shouldn't be an issue, anyway, because they are required to give you their CHL if they are carrying.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 8:27:24 PM EDT
That is a tough one, it is profiling you in that you own firearms, could make a rookie over reactive. it is good in that the cop knows you are clean with a CHL. What is tghe worst is that hey let the kids see it, especially blood red letters. Alot of cops have guns, believe in the 2nd, and support your right to be safe.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 8:35:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan: If known, dispatch always advises us about Weapons, Alcohol, Drugs, or Mentals.
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Too bad none of these systems notify you about felony convictions. A carry license should indicate a felony-free individual that was "state approved" as a good guy.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 8:40:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheWind: Alot of cops have guns, believe in the 2nd, and support your right to be safe.
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I feel this way
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 8:57:21 PM EDT
We don't have a shall issue state yet (we almost had it, then Columbine H.S. happened) and so CCW permits are farely rare in Colorado. I have seen 2 or 3 in 8 years. The driver's did tell me that they had a license to conceal and were armed and I ,too, also felt relaxed because I knew I was in contact with a good guy.
Link Posted: 12/3/2001 9:14:56 PM EDT
My name is flagged. (Lights up like a Christmas tree)I own multiple class 3's.I have heard it on a scanner. The dispatchers make it sound like I am carrying them all. I asked a state trooper (fellow gun club member) if I should show my hand gun license If stoped.He said he preferrers people just keep hands on steering wheel. I asked a city PD officer what I should do. He said, If he pulled me over he would be screaming "To get out of the F@cking car A$shole. He was joking he's also follow gun club member.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 12:51:42 AM EDT
I think the officer was just upset because of the Bose 901's. I mean who other than a crazy person has 901's?
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 4:37:13 AM EDT
Whoa, whoa, whoa....One_Slayer, how do you KNOW this? And where do you live? I could understand the CCW showing up, but Class III stuff? How the hell would they know that? Please provide corroborating info, or at least someone I can call to verify. Thanks! QS
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 4:40:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sgt884: I think the officer was just upset because of the Bose 901's. I mean who other than a crazy person has 901's?
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884, You've got a point on the Bose 901's. Maybe the call went out, 'Man with Bose 901's', that's call for for the use of deadly force in any state,LOL...And come to think of it on a bad day 'in country', I'd make Pretty boy Floyd look like Rosie O'Donnel. And if I was that poor officer, I'd call for a team of Cobra's with full suppression and smoke, before I went to the my front door... the three snarling German Shepherds couldn't have helped....the only thing missing was my rabid ex-Mother in law....On a lighter note, thanks for all your input. GIB
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 5:10:39 AM EDT
I live in MA too.A pal got seperated from wife,cops came to house for I dont know what,he was drunk knowing him,and wifie called.ANYWAYS the cops said "any guns in the house"I doubt he had the CURRENT license....then they asked him if he'd sign it over to them(he was drunk) He jokingly said yeah,you better take 'em before I use 'em on her(yeah not to bright,he was drunk) He drinks alot OK.Needless to say he is now divorced living in his camping trailor with his gunz KEPT/CONFISCATED by the town cops.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 5:32:13 AM EDT
This is so darn ignorant!! Most criminal types are armed. A few of them are likely to use that weapon on any cop they come in contact with. What kind of cop assumes anyone is UNarmed? Seems the system is backwards and points to honest citizens with a clean record as a potential threat. All of this leads me to believe that Vermont is the ONLY sane state in this country!!!
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 10:50:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2001 7:44:37 AM EDT by mike103]
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 11:01:12 AM EDT
Mike103, He has a point, CHL holders are the least likely people to try and pop a cop at stop. I think that if you don't see the info, that don't mean squat, like the officer responding to the disturbance with a knife, and the suspect went for something under the seat, and the officer thinking it was the knife, tried to stop the guy instead of backing away while drawing his sidearm. Guess what, thanks to kevlar, that officer is ok, because Joe Butthole had a gun not a knife. I can see both sides, but thinking that the guy doesn't have a CHL makes him unarmed is more dangerous than assuming that everybody is armed and working down. I know, JBT tactics, but it seems like the people cops come into contact with don't have any brains. Just my two cents.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 2:29:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MickeyMouse: Seems the system is backwards and points to honest citizens with a clean record as a potential threat.
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[b]Everyone[/b] is a potential threat at the start. Certain indicators they give you from there either prove or disprove their true intentions. Knowing a person has a concealed weapons permit makes me more comfortable in dealing with them sometimes. And sometimes it doesn't mean a thing (other than to tell me there's a probably a gun there). Fact is everybody responds differently to the police (expecially in emotional or domestic situations). Throw in booze or drugs? Well, you get the idea. I personally want to know everything I can before I get out of my car, while I have time to run scenarios through my head, and how I might respond to them. Believe me when I tell you I support your right to carry, and wish more states allowed honest citizens to do so. But, also understand that a reponding officer doesn't know you or your intentions until you provide him with some of those indicators.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 3:08:15 PM EDT
I am student in Boston. My friends and I actually live in Allston. I am wondering if the police can use this database of CCW for "probable cause" to enter a residence. I have seen Boston cops enter a house for noise disturbance [b]many[/b] times simply claim "we have probable cause." So, I'm wondering if they could search a house/an apartment to secure a gun when responding to a noise complaint or something similar. BTW, I have a CCW in CT, but haven't bothered to get one in MA b/c of all the bullshit you have to go through Boston to get one. MY NRA pistol certification that I had to get for my CT CCW isn't good enough for a MA CCW. Apparently you have to get the certification in MA, in other words pay $150 for crap I already know. The Class A application is also 6 pages.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 3:19:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mike103: Liberty of 76, How old are you? How many gun fights did you survive? How many perp's have you disarmed? Knowledge is power! Do I want to know if someone is armed, YES. Stop flipping hamburgers, get a real job, put your ass on the line, get shot up, bury your friends and then start giving advice. Mike, I started this thread. And I have no wish to put anyone, or their profession down. So why attack hamburger jockeys if your really LEO? You'd starve to death without them. Oh, you put your ass on the line, let me kiss it...You signed up for the job,I take it? I signed up for a job in '65' that I knew would put me in harms way. I buried a lot of my friends, as well. Too many, too young. http://www.187thahc.net/lost/lost.htm Check them out...maybe we can toast to friends lost...you can't give advise, because you can't take advise. "Until then shut up, put your hands on the wheel and do every thing the Officer tells you to or suffer the consequences. Mike.
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" Is this how they taught you at the police academy to treat American citizens? Let me advise you, you work for me, and I have every right to be offended by your self-rightness discourteousness. BTW, I'm have a 20 years on the job as a Professional Firefighter, and I have pulled LEO's out of wrecks, both dead and alive, and I have a sobering respect for the job. I hope '76' just caught you at a bad time...I don't think it was meant in the way it was taken by you. We all got buttons....Gib
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 3:50:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By gib187th:
Originally Posted By mike103: Liberty of 76, How old are you? How many gun fights did you survive? How many perp's have you disarmed? Knowledge is power! Do I want to know if someone is armed, YES. Stop flipping hamburgers, get a real job, put your ass on the line, get shot up, bury your friends and then start giving advice. Mike, I started this thread. And I have no wish to put anyone, or their profession down. So why attack hamburger jockeys if your really LEO? You'd starve to death without them. Oh, you put your ass on the line, let me kiss it...You signed up for the job,I take it? I signed up for a job in '65' that I knew would put me in harms way. I buried a lot of my friends, as well. Too many, too young. http://www.187thahc.net/lost/lost.htm Check them out...maybe we can toast to friends lost...you can't give advise, because you can't take advise. "Until then shut up, put your hands on the wheel and do every thing the Officer tells you to or suffer the consequences. Mike.
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" Is this how they taught you at the police academy to treat American citizens? Let me advise you, you work for me, and I have every right to be offended by your self-rightness discourteousness. BTW, I'm have a 20 years on the job as a Professional Firefighter, and I have pulled LEO's out of wrecks, both dead and alive, and I have a sobering respect for the job. I hope '76' just caught you at a bad time...I don't think it was meant in the way it was taken by you. We all got buttons....Gib
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My post got screwed up somehow...must be the goverment....
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 4:09:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mike103: Liberty of 76, How old are you? How many gun fights did you survive? How many perp's have you disarmed? Knowledge is power! Do I want to know if someone is armed, YES. Stop flipping hamburgers, get a real job, put your ass on the line, get shot up, bury your friends and then start giving advice. Until then shut up, put your hands on the wheel and do every thing the Officer tells you to or suffer the consequences. Mike.
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This attitude of yours is EXACTLY why so many people (growing number) hate pigs. Nice 'tude ya nazi!
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 4:17:40 PM EDT
SgtKiwi, you missed my other point - I think prudent cops cops should assume EVERYONE is armed. Ridiculous to single out legal CCW people as armed when crooks are more likely to not only be armed but dangerous as well. I agree that making the cop feel secure by keepinmg your hands in sight and moving deliberately and behaving in a non-threatening manner is a good idea. I am sure he wants to go home at the end of his shift as much as I want to avoid being shot by some nervous nellie who thinks he is Rambo. About all I can do about that is try to keep him from feeling threatened. Interesting how cops rate the danger of their jobs. Make no mistake, many DO get hurt on the job. However, firefighters, farmers, miners and several other professions have a higher rate than cops.
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 5:45:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2001 7:40:36 AM EDT by mike103]
Link Posted: 12/4/2001 7:03:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mike103: Gib, I was not directing my anger at you. This is not the first time 76 gave advise about what he does not know. He is a cop basher and in another thread today he was anti-american. MIKE.
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Mike, Like I said everyone has buttons. I don't know shit about '76''s history of cop bashing, but I appreciate the fact that you cared enough to clarify your feelings, and I think he (76) was trying to do the the same thing. It's just that we have different point's of perspective, based on experience...We are are all on the same team is my message....and we better work together, or we are fucked......Gib ;{>
Link Posted: 12/7/2001 8:41:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mike103:Gib, I was not directing my anger at you. This is not the first time 76 gave advise about what he does not know. He is a cop basher and in another thread today he was anti-american. MIKE.
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I am not a cop basher nor I am anti-american. Those are slanders. I love to debate what I (think) I know, but calling me names does not change my mind, in only solidifies what I belief.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 2:14:15 AM EDT
Back to the original question, rather than the flames: The information doesn't pose a risk to any police officer who's properly trained. As you've stated, no one in their right mind is going to assume that just because it says he doesn't have a CCW, or own a gun, or whatever, that he's going to be 100% safe. Most of the actions that an officer takes is for his own safety. My guess is he had his gun out more for protection from your dog than from you. More than one home owner would set their dogs on a cop at their front yard. He has no idea if there are more dogs inside, or what your intent was. In this case, the dog was a weapon and he was taking a precautionary step in approching someone who was armed. A trained police officer is going to pick up more information as he goes along. Information is the key to survival. If you have a NRA sticker, or "I don't dial 911" bumper sticker, he's going to assume there's a gun in the car. Same as if it pops up "CHL" on the computer. The gun may be legally there, but everyone's seen the video tapes of guys going beserk in their cars because they just got pulled over. In reality the CHL notice should make it safer for you. By knowing you may be legally armed, the officer shouldn't be suprised to spot that spare mag in the glove box when you grap your registration. Or if he spots a gun, he's less likely to blow you away since he already knows you carry. When he doesn't have that info, he has to react that the gun is illegal, and that you're going to shoot him. If your police department is trained, the program presents no additional danger to the officer. If they are trained, the program presents no additional danger to you, in fact it's probably less dangerous. If they're poorly trained, then you're more likely to get shot over the "I saw something shiney" reason when the officer doesn't know you're supposed to have a gun. When I get pulled over I put down the window, turn off the ignition, put both hands on the upper left of the steering wheel and wait. If it's night, I turn on the dome light so he can see inside the vehicle. I don't do this out of fear, or because I think I have to bow to his authority. I do this stuff as a courtesy to the officer. Ross
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 9:47:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ross: My guess is he had his gun out more for protection from your dog than from you....In this case, the dog was a weapon and he was taking a precautionary step in approching someone who was armed. A trained police officer is going to pick up more information as he goes along. Information is the key to survival. If you have a NRA sticker, or "I don't dial 911" bumper sticker, he's going to assume there's a gun in the car. Same as if it pops up "CHL" on the computer. The gun may be legally there, but everyone's seen the video tapes of guys going beserk in their cars because they just got pulled over. Let's see a two month old German Shepard is equal to a .44 magnum, so it requires the potential use of deadly force...that clears it up for me now....Does this mean I have to get rid of my 'Honk,I'm still reloading' bumper sticker on my M3? Shit, I thought it gave me the right of way in an intersection...another illusion shattered...I think it's no coincidence I started this thread the day my 'Glock 19' went to the factory for upgrades. I've been informed it will arrive on my doorstep tomorrow....O joy,life will be returning to 'normal'...Seriously, thanks to all the LEO's and other listers for the input, may save someone from getting their 'nads' shot off.....Gib
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