Posted: 8/22/2008 11:53:41 AM EDT
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A continuation of this thread. The purpose of this thread is for CIVIL and serious discussion, not your internet pissing contests. The rules: 1) NO flaming or personal insults. You can call someone dishonest, you can express your opinion of someone (without being insulting; this also includes tongue-in-cheek backhanded insults that technically circumvent the CoC), but you can NOT go around calling people names or describing their genetic, intellectual, sexual, and other shortcomings. 2) If you have documentation or evidence to back up your argument, post it. If you do not, or if you don't post it, then we will assume your argument is merely your opinion and therefore suspect until proven correct (or reasonably probable). 3) No calling for the overthrow of the government, or the death of law enforcement and federal agents. Even if Horiuchi does deserve life in prison at a minimum. Keep it reasonable, guys. Anyone who violates rules 1 and 3 will be asked to leave the thread and not post in it again. If it gets out of hand, then the thread will be locked (and probably any other thread that gets started afterward just to prevent it from happening again.). If you go far enough, site staff may be inclined to give you a short vacation from GD or even Arfcom entirely. THEY ARE WATCHING, SO STAY ON YOUR BEST BEHAVIOR. I want a serious, rational discussion of the Ruby Ridge (and, if relevent, Waco and other similar incidents. Only if relevent, however.), not a flamefest. Yes, the usual suspects will be cheerleading the feds even if they had stomped kittens and laughed maniacally about it on public television. Yes, the other usual suspects will be calling for feds, law enforcement, and government in general to be disbanded on general principal. Both sides tend to be equally idiotic in their arguments. Deal with it like grownups are supposed to. Keep your personal attacks to yourself. Ok, the ground rules have been laid out. Let's continue the discussion in a civil manner, shall we? |
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I took a college class from the State police detective that went in after the shooting cleared to find out what the heck happened. Basically Idaho viewed it as people were dead and the government investigation was insufficient. His findings were very interesting they set up a canvas pattern of the are were the dog was shot. In combing the same area they found a lot of interesting evidence. A lot of the evidence they found had been trampled over by the Fed and disregarded. His veiw of the attitude of the Goverment investigators was that it was a closed/done deal case. His findings were that it was FUBAR on both sides of this scenario. He discussed the Hurachio shot but wouldnt give an opinion on it. One thing he did mention was that when the other snipers were questioned, they wouldnt exclude their fellow shooter. Their only explanation for not taking a shot was that they didnt have a clear view. He did make clear though that from the positions the other snipers were in they had a clearer view of the area that Hurachio shot into. Was Weaver a stand up guy.... Hell No Did the Gubermint fuck up..... Hell Yes Will this ever be resolved/find closer..... never |
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Ruby Ridge 5 part series, part 1 Part 2 Etc. Someone else on this site posted these the last time we had one of these discussions/bannings. That was in April of this year I believe. |
I read Cold Zero back in 05 and if I recall correctly, another Sniper was also trying to get an angle on the running suspect to shoot him at about the same time that H took the shot...the other sniper just couldn't get a clear shot in time. Their method to engage a moving target was to pick a point the moving target would cross and aim there, then fire when the suspect crossed that point. |
First off, who the hell are you to set teh rules? |
Crap like this is why we can't have a calm rational adult conversation in GD 
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RR or Waco threads have NEVER, EVER ended well. Ever. There is no reason to think this won't be the same.
Seems he's not making much of a stretch here, hoss. www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=5 |
Wasn't Whitcomb's perspective that he couldn't see what (whatever the fuck name he uses instead of the guy's real name) could supposedly see and did not witness the shot. He said there was a low flying helicopter, then he heard two shots. Later he 'realized' it was just one shot that echoed. His excuse seemed to be that the ROE kept changing for the snipers up on th ridge that day. In my opinion, you're are responsible for each bullet you fire, especially as a trained sniper. UNLESS, you're in a active shooter situation and being fired at. So giving him the benefit of the doubt that he did not actually intend to shoot a unarmed mother holding a child, he is at least responsible for the negligence that lead to her death imo. |
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Now I am by no means an expert here, but what I had looked up a while back was that the papers for Randy's court date had the wrong date, if I recall they were off by a few months. This should have been an extenuating circumstance when the court discovered the fact BEFORE the marshals had their warrant to get Randy. What I read, it sounded like the judge knowingly issued a warrant for Randy' arrest for failure to appear, when he knew the court had screwed up and given him the wrong date on his paperwork. Is this true? |
pretty much.
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I am certainly not for an over throw of our elected tyrants, but I do believe that somewhere around 90% of all elected and/or appointed federal, state and local officials, which would certainly include all mayors and governors, should be held accountable for their unconstitutional and other treasonous actions. The guilty should be hung by the neck and the innocent imprisoned for life. Otherwise I personally think our govt. is just fine.
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It's a violation of CoC to do so. This is a private forum, and as such, the owners set the rules, including "no calling for the overthrow of the government". Doing so violates the CoC and at best gets you in trouble and at worst gets the entire thread locked. If you knew anything of my posting history, you'd know that I am far from fond of government in general and the federal government in particular. That said, follow the rules.
Besides that, it's MY thread and MY rules. |
GD already has rules. We all know you think you are "special" but your not an Avila, a mod or site staff. Let the dead horse beating begin. |
Feel free to take your attitude elsewhere. This thread is for serious discussion and not petty pissing contests. |
 So let me get this straight, you want to have a serious discussion, in GD, About Ruby ridge?
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It is a tough call. In a perfect world...you are fully responsible for every shot you take and punch you throw. In reality...bullets miss. The stats don't lie...a lot...even a majority...of the rounds fired in a shooting will miss the suspect. There is no way to 100% prevent that from happening. It can be minimized with good training but it can never be totally eliminated. That is just the reality of gunfighting. Knowing that...and understanding that LEOs can't just leave, they have to bring the situation to a conclusion while trying to prevent loss of life on all sides, I believe that the fault lies with the Suspect who created the situation in the first place by chosing to be a criminal. The Police are an easy target for blame because they are easily identifyable as "the government" and are easy to stereotype...plus, people assume that "the governent" should be all knowing, all seeing, and able to solve any problem right now...
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Sniping people who are not pointing guns at you ain't gunfighting sport. |
That's what snipers do. Not that it is right to shoot a woman holding a baby. |
The FBI stats say that 95% of shots fired by a "marksmen" hit what they are aiming at(like Mrs. Weaver). |
Did Lon fire through the door trying to anticipate/lead the target and hit Mrs. instead? |
My reference was to gunfighting, not Sniping. The stats on Sniper shots are fairly reliable but I don't think the UCR keeps that data. Either way, 5% still miss by your stats...those 5% have to go somewhere...sad deal but it is reality. |
Thats what he said he was doing, of cource he could see in the window and see Mrs. Weaver standing at the door and still took the shot at the door/window. |
Duh, but shooting at targets who are not actively engaged in shooting at you ain't gunfighting - which implies split second actions to save yourself or an innocent third party. Gunfighting has far more margin of error when compared to the action of shooting at anything that is male and might have a gun. |
That has never been proven...not in the least. There is no evidence that he could see through the door. The suspect was inside the cabin, in the dark, and there was a curtain. |
The offical report stated that the curtains where pulled to the sides, of course the gov. "lost" the door, so it can't be proven. |
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Are there any statements Horiuchi or others in the federal police made that indicate they had any intention or desire to kill Weaver's wife? Is there any actual evidence to point to Horiuchi deliberately targeting her? I maintain that the sensible position is one which ranks error higher than malice and cover-up, and that Horiuchi was trying to engage the armed man running for cover when Weaver's wife happened unfortunately to be behind the door. Horiuchi's only mistake is not verifying what was behind the target he was firing at, a very small error given the situation. |
It's also never been proven in a court of law that Randy did anything wrong other than a failure to appear charge. Lon on the other hand got himself declared immune to the state courts and never faced charges for his actions. I don't think he would have done as well as Randy did in court if he had stood up and faced the music like a man. But we'll never know, what we do know is the orders were illegal and the gov paid $3.1 mil because Lon shot the Mrs. Weaver. I'm pretty sure that a FBI trained sniper should have been able to distinguish between lawful and unlawful use of force before pulling the trigger, but please explain if I am mistaken. If he knew the ROE was wrong and he took the shot anyway he did in fact murder Mrs. Weaver whether she was the intended target or not. If he didn't know it was wrong he should have, period end of story case closed. |
Harris was running away, taking the shot in the first place was a big error, and a blatant violation of the (standard) ROE. |
First I ever heard of them losing the door...where did you get that? Do you have a cite for that? When I saw the diagram of the door/window, there was a bullet hole in the curtain indicating that the bullet passed through the curtain which would have had to be in the closed position. It makes sense for the curtain to be closed as the suspects were hiding in the house, they would obviously close the curtains to keep out the prying eyes of the LEOs outside. |
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Sorry that was the other trampling of our civil rights, WACO, that they lost the door. |
Sad  If you want the condensed "start of the gunfire" go 6 minutes in HERE---pt 2
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This. Weaver was set up with the SBS charge (notice he was never convicted for the SBS charge because no one could prove he'd cut the shotguns down below the legal limit.) because the feds were pissed that he refused to be an informant. They were going to entrap him with the SBS charge and "make a deal" where he would be their spy in exchange for not going to prison. He was given the wrong court date, possibly deliberately, possibly accidentally. We'll never know. My opinion, and this is strictly my opinion, is that he was deliberately given the wrong court date so the feds could nail him for that, since they knew the SBS charges wouldn't stick. The feds got a warrant for his arrest for not showing up, despite knowing he had been given the wrong date to appear in court. The feds, wearing camouflage and toting machine guns, ambushed Weaver and shot his dog when it detected them. Both men ran immediately, his teenage son fired once, then turned to run. He was shot in the back with a machine gun; from all the evidence, the guy who shot him dumped a full magazine into the kid. That fed was subsequently shot and died of his wound. Weaver and his friend went to retrieve the body and despite neither aiming their weapons or firing them, both were shot at and wounded. Vicky Weaver, standing in the doorway with her infant child in her arms, was shot in the face and killed by a sniper. The same sniper who apparently fired without orders at Waco. Lon Horiuchi was given immunity from criminal charges by the feds. Weaver was given millions of dollars in court, which doesn't replace two dead people. The FBI rules of engagement were to shoot on sight any male who was armed, whether they were a threat or not. These ROE were later changed during the standoff and declared illegal. Now, Weaver for his part did his fair share of stupid things too. He became convinced that the feds wanted to kill him out of spite for not playing their game and holed up in the cabin. Considering how two people, including one unarmed and holding an infant, were killed and both men wounded and shot at repeatedly by snipers and men with machine guns (instead of, you know, a letter in the mail saying "hey, we fucked up and you got the wrong court date", or a uniformed police officer knocking on his door and talking to him. Or, really, ANY communication with him, which if he refused to cooperate afterward would have given them justification to charge in and arrest him, prior to their playing G.I. Joe and shooting at anything that moved.), he may not been unjustified in his belief. He also should have surrendered immediately, but he obviously wasn't thinking clearly once his son was shot down and he was thoroughly convinced the feds intended to kill him no matter what. All around, the whole deal was a collosal cluster-fuck, but most of the fault lies with the feds and not with Weaver and his family and friends. And all of this started because Weaver was a white seperatist (not a white supremacist; one is disgusting, the other is just stupid.) and attended two or three Aryan Nation meetings without ever joining the group. The feds wanted a spy amongst the Aryan Nation, Weaver refused to join the group and refused to spy on them too. Pretty much everything after that was the feds out to entrap him and destroy his life out of spite for not being their little whipping boy. |