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AR15.COM
7/25/2008 10:27:11 AM EDT
We've got a discussion going on here at work.

If you drop a flat based rifle bullet off a building with zero wind, will it fall base first or pointy end first?

Alternately, if you fired it straight up from a rifle, would the rotation make any change on how it would fall back down?

An answer with an explanation would be appreciated.

7/25/2008 10:29:02 AM EDT
[#1]
I will tumble...
7/25/2008 10:32:21 AM EDT
[#2]



given enough distance in freefall, the bullet will come to fall in an unstable base-first manner.


7/25/2008 10:32:54 AM EDT
[#3]

Quoted:


given enough distance in freefall, the bullet will come to fall in an unstable base-first manner.




Yes
7/25/2008 10:33:56 AM EDT
[#4]
whichever end is heavier ?

i would think it would depend on the bullet, and if it is perfect symmetrical in weight, or not.
7/25/2008 10:34:35 AM EDT
[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:


given enough distance in freefall, the bullet will come to fall in an unstable base-first manner.




Yes


yup
7/25/2008 10:35:16 AM EDT
[#6]
where's Keith_J?
7/25/2008 10:37:06 AM EDT
[#7]
In on the first page.  Physics questions on ARFCOM are always entertaining.
7/25/2008 10:38:12 AM EDT
[#8]

Quoted:
I will tumble...


Culture Club?
7/25/2008 10:39:42 AM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:


given enough distance in freefall, the bullet will come to fall in an unstable base-first manner.




Yes


yup


Due to relative locations of center of pressure and center of gravity.
7/25/2008 10:39:45 AM EDT
[#10]
Due to the resistance of the air, the bullet you dropped would probably tumble on the way down.

In an non atmospheric environment, ie: as on the mooon,  the bullet would fall exactly the way you dropped it.

If you fired it perfectly straight up into the air, the bullet would eventually lose all forward momentum and stop dead before it fell back to the ground at terminal velocity.

Too slow to do much damage to you if it hit you on the head.

It would likely tumble due to insufficient rotation to stabailize it.
7/25/2008 10:44:46 AM EDT
[#11]
Base first.  Due to center of gravity and aerodynamics, the flat end will create a more statically-stable profile and it will flat flat-end-first.

Same reason non-fragmenting spitzer bullets that are destabilized in a target swap ends and exit flat-end first.
7/25/2008 10:44:53 AM EDT
[#12]
I would say base end, as it's generally heavier.
7/25/2008 10:45:55 AM EDT
[#13]
Base first...heavier end falls first in free fall.
That's why a bullet destabilizes inside a soft target, the base is trying to get in the front.
7/25/2008 10:48:26 AM EDT
[#14]

Quoted:


given enough distance in freefall, the bullet will come to fall in an unstable stable base-first manner.


Center of gravity is biased toward the rear of the bullet, which is why rounds tumble when they strike flesh or ballistic gelatin - they are attempting to put themselves in the most stable position, which is base-forward.

Unless you meant "unstable" as in "it's wobbling slightly," which will be true.
7/25/2008 10:49:26 AM EDT
[#15]
Neither, it will fall profile down.
7/25/2008 10:50:16 AM EDT
[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:


given enough distance in freefall, the bullet will come to fall in an unstable base-first manner.




Yes


yup


Due to relative locations of center of pressure and center of gravity.


Correct
7/25/2008 10:53:22 AM EDT
[#17]

Quoted:
Base first...heavier end falls first in free fall.
That's why a bullet destabilizes inside a soft target, the base is trying to get in the front.


And given enough energy will keep trying, probably resulting in a base downward tumble (gyration around an unstable, lengthwise, axis would be more accurate)  if dropped off a building.
7/25/2008 10:53:33 AM EDT
[#18]
Doesn't this depend on whether it's a .45 or 9mm?

7/25/2008 10:54:22 AM EDT
[#19]

Quoted:
Doesn't this depend on whether it's a .45 or 9mm?



Only if you happen to be walking on the sidewalk when it hits.
7/25/2008 10:55:34 AM EDT
[#20]
Base first, in on page one.
7/25/2008 11:01:00 AM EDT
[#21]

Quoted:
Doesn't this depend on whether it's a .45 or 9mm?


Depends.  Was it fired from a  Glock or a 1911?
7/25/2008 11:02:28 AM EDT
[#22]
Generally in the atmosphere, dead weights fall with their heaviest parts down.

When the center of mass is located in a different place than the center of profile, the center of mass will precede the center of profile in flight.
7/25/2008 11:04:20 AM EDT
[#23]
6
7/25/2008 11:06:51 AM EDT
[#24]

Quoted:
Neither, it will fall profile down.


is that if it is dropped from a treadmill?
7/25/2008 11:07:29 AM EDT
[#25]
The general answer that is true for all bullets:

For the dropped bullet:
Given a long enough fall and the absence of stabilizing spin the bullet will orient itself such that the center of gravity (CG) is traveling ahead of the center of pressure (CP) relative to the direction of airflow.  The closer the CP is to the CG the less stable the bullet will be during it's travel.  At some point the CG and CP are not sufficiently separated for stable flight and the bullet will tumble.

For a bullet fired "straight up" w/o any wind or other influences:

The spin will stabilize the bullet base down throughout it's flight.
7/25/2008 11:08:00 AM EDT
[#26]
you will kill someone
7/25/2008 11:10:08 AM EDT
[#27]

Quoted:
The general answer that is true for all bullets:

For the dropped bullet:
Given a long enough fall and the absence of stabilizing spin the bullet will orient itself such that the center of gravity (CG) is traveling ahead of the center of pressure (CP) relative to the direction of airflow.  The closer the CP is to the CG the less stable the bullet will be during it's travel.  At some point the CG and CP are not sufficiently separated for stable flight and the bullet will tumble.

For a bullet fired "straight up" w/o any wind or other influences:

The spin will stabilize the bullet base down throughout it's flight.


This.
7/25/2008 11:10:43 AM EDT
[#28]

Quoted:
you will kill someone



Here's three words for ya......Mythbusters


7/25/2008 11:14:08 AM EDT
[#29]
If it was an Extreme Shock round, it would penetrate the Earth and keep going.
7/25/2008 11:25:43 AM EDT
[#30]
Depends... was it launched from a treadmill or not?
7/25/2008 11:31:50 AM EDT
[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
you will kill someone



Here's three words for ya......Mythbusters




I blame public schools for this.
7/25/2008 11:35:22 AM EDT
[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The general answer that is true for all bullets:

For the dropped bullet:
Given a long enough fall and the absence of stabilizing spin the bullet will orient itself such that the center of gravity (CG) is traveling ahead of the center of pressure (CP) relative to the direction of airflow.  The closer the CP is to the CG the less stable the bullet will be during it's travel.  At some point the CG and CP are not sufficiently separated for stable flight and the bullet will tumble.

For a bullet fired "straight up" w/o any wind or other influences:

The spin will stabilize the bullet base down throughout it's flight.


This.


I actually knew this one.  Yay me.  
7/25/2008 11:37:28 AM EDT
[#33]
It depends on the shape and the mass distribution of the bullet.  I guarantee I can draw one that will fall point first.  Or base first if I want.

7/25/2008 11:37:54 AM EDT
[#34]
Pretty sure they fall sidways.

ETA:

In mythbusters the bullets (9mm) fell sidways.
7/25/2008 11:40:33 AM EDT
[#35]

Quoted:
Pretty sure they fall sidways.

ETA:

In mythbusters the bullets (9mm) fell sidways.

Further proof 9mm is defective!  
7/25/2008 4:15:22 PM EDT
[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
you will kill someone



Here's three words for ya......Mythbusters




I blame public schools for this.


i was kidding...  
7/25/2008 4:27:49 PM EDT
[#37]
Base first unless it is a mini ball for a muzzleloader then the pointy end is heaver. A round musket ball will fall neither up or down.
7/25/2008 7:49:26 PM EDT
[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I will tumble...


Culture Club?
Just for you...
7/25/2008 7:56:20 PM EDT
[#39]
Just the bullet? It would tumble since the CP and CG are about equal... a full round would be more stable because the CG would be more ahead of the CP, but it too would tumble or at least wobble.