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Posted: 11/19/2001 10:00:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2001 10:11:23 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Lets be brutally honest, the only reason we are in the Middle East is for the OIL. To preserve our access to oil we get involved in all kinds of crap like we are faced with today. But Russia might have even more oil than the Saudis and the Gulf Emirates togeather in Siberia. Their economy is still in the tank, and they dont have the capital to do anything about it. That is where we come in. The US does have the know how to find, draw, and ship the oil. And we are the biggest oil market in the world. The following link is a ad, but it was the first thing that came up on AOL Search and it addresses the case perfectly for conversation purposes: [url]http://home.talkcity.com/TreasuryDr/jamesgrimes/[/url] In fact Russia is already helping us, these low gasoline prices we are seeing- and looks like we will continue to see throughout the winter, are not JUST because of people not traveling. They are partially because the Russians are dumping petroleum on the market. Even though they do not yet have quite the production and sipping capacity that the Arab States have built up over the last 50 years, they still make a big enough dent in a depressed market to drive prices through the floor.[url]http://www.nationalreview.com/kudlow/kudlow101201.shtml[/url] And this is the reason why, since 9/11 Putin has been wandering around with a shit eating grin on his face. Russia is valuable again, they are a player in the world stage. Not because of her military this time but because of her new economic power. We need to get in on this before the EU does. The US needs to begin serious work in improving Russian energy production in all sections but especally oil and petroleum products production. If we did this we would break OPEC and stop having to pander to Islamic sentament. There is one other project that would sinch the deal. Build a Tunnel under the Bering Strait for two way rail traffic and a major oil pipeline: [url]http://arctic.net/~snnr/tunnel/[/url] This would also serve to partially offset the outflow of cash to Russia for the oil. Russia has trouble feeding itself still. And the one thing that the US and Canada produce more of than ANYTHING its foodstuffs of all kinds. We build the tunnel, and flood the Russian market with wheat and other foodstuffs on trains running day and night, 24/7/365 regardless of weather. Food for oil, simple exchange. And if Russia were to get full of itself? Simple, go back to the Middle East. But with this the oil market would finally be a FREE market. Anyone else think this is a good idea?
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 10:39:55 PM EDT
I dont think we should really be dependent on the russains think about it instead o being dependent on rag heads living in sand dunes were dependant on the russians people who want to do every thing in there power to learn what we know so it benifits them i dont think so! personaly i think this coluntry needs to look into other alternitives.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 10:40:42 PM EDT
Don't lock the rag heads out of the exchange... just give them good competition. When we choose only one supply we set ourselves up for a fall.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 11:16:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By paterpk: Don't lock the rag heads out of the exchange... just give them good competition. When we choose only one supply we set ourselves up for a fall.
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Good heavens no, what we want is real free trade on oil. So no, no monopolies. What I was trying to get at is that in the long term the Russians would be more reliable suppliers than the Arabs. It would also allow us to ride out the inevitable wave of revolutions that is coming that will topple our despotic "allies" in the region. Actually we might even be able to do ride that out even without building a tunnel or such. But it would make things a whole lot easier in the long run.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 11:18:09 PM EDT
The U.S. really needs to get serious and put a lot of money into the research and development of alternative fuels so that we do not have to rely on other countries for our fuel needs. Something really needs to be seriously done on a global basis to eliminate dependence on fossil fuels. If the world continues to keep using oil for fuels and burning coal in power plants we are going to have one really f@#$%d up planet. If we can send a damn man to the moon they most certainly can come up with some environmently safe alternative fuels that we can manufacture on a massive scale for ourselves. And the really f@#$%d up thing is that these oil and coal companies and many other people know that the fossils fuels are destroying our planet. Its all about money. All anyone cares about today is padding their bank accounts and enjoying their own lives. None of them give a damn about the future of our planet.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 11:24:34 PM EDT
YES!!!!! now i agree 100 % with the Armdlbrl. Greaper the alternates are at least 50 years away. in the meant time i need my car to get to work and i need heat in my house. When you say that what we realy need is more government intervention i think you are wrong. When the alternate becomes a viable commercial venture oil will go away. Government force will only screw it up and force us into less advantages sources of energy.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 11:27:39 PM EDT
Sorry greaper. But physics are against you. The ICE is the best available form of portable energy, and the best fuel for ICE's are hydrocarbons. And I am not against new power sources. Cold fusion would be nice. Having a magic carpet would be nice too.. This is one of the areas where I side with the conservatives. We have to have a guarenteed source of cheep power for the future or we have no economy. Fusion is NOT keeping away from us because we are spending enough, its because its is truely difficult to replicate the gravity of a star in a small package. Put People First!
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 11:36:58 PM EDT
people are currently developing producing alternative evergy sorces but no one really wants them because the current cost is higher than that of grid power for example there are solar panals that produce power and also double as the actual roofing material. If you bolud a house with this type of roof I raises the cost of building the house 15% althogh i could see that a person colud save a person alot in the long run. if biuilt properly the structure produces more power than it uses during the day the answer is to sell extra power produced back to a utility. during the night when ou arnt producing power you buy power from the grid like any onther house. this ends the need to be totally off grid and hel;ps utilitys meet day time peak demands also relives you from needing expencive batterys. these systems are faily new (1998) and are still not really cost effecive if new homes were bolud using this we colud cut down alot on powerplant needs. It wolud also save people money will it catch on who knows
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 11:44:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2001 11:41:26 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Originally Posted By OregonShooter: people are currently developing producing alternative evergy sorces but no one really wants them because the current cost is higher than that of grid power for example there are solar panals that produce power and also double as the actual roofing material. If you bolud a house with this type of roof I raises the cost of building the house 15% althogh i could see that a person colud save a person alot in the long run. if biuilt properly the structure produces more power than it uses during the day the answer is to sell extra power produced back to a utility. during the night when ou arnt producing power you buy power from the grid like any onther house. this ends the need to be totally off grid and hel;ps utilitys meet day time peak demands also relives you from needing expencive batterys. these systems are faily new (1998) and are still not really cost effecive if new homes were bolud using this we colud cut down alot on powerplant needs. It wolud also save people money will it catch on who knows
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California aside, grid power is not what we are short of. Oil is for making gas and diesel for cars, trains and planes. Most non-coal steam power plants have switched to natural gas. We have pleanty of natural gas here in this country. The biggest problem with grid power in this country is NIMBY's who want to load up on computers but wont agree to put power plants near by to power them. I agree, the solar panel roofing is a neat idea. If I was building a house from scratch I would have it. Edited to say I forgot about all the poor people in the East and northern Midwest who are stuck with oil burning winter heaters. They still soak up a suprising amount of oil each winter.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 11:51:09 PM EDT
personally freeing up the rcorces that are currently being supplyed for grid power wolud make more avalible for transportatrion and suh there are still alot of oil fired plants around i belive. but then again I could be completely wrong it wouldnt be the first time
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 12:05:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By OregonShooter: personally freeing up the rcorces that are currently being supplyed for grid power wolud make more avalible for transportatrion and suh there are still alot of oil fired plants around i belive. but then again I could be completely wrong it wouldnt be the first time
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Well it depends on what you mean by a lot. Only about 1 boiler in 10 is fired by oil now in the power industry. This is a big change from 20 years ago, but its still a large number of boilers. It happens to be fairly easy to convert to from oil to methane fuel. Price of fuel was a secondary concern- it was the Clean Air Act that started the oil to gas conversion. Westinghouse is working on Hydrocarbon/Air fuel cells. These generate a electrical current on their own and a lot of heat, they get about a 80% fuel to energy conversion if you use waste heat recovery and will run on anything that has CH in it or pure hydrogen. There output is just CO2 and water. They are still expensive though. And the largest one yet built is a 2MW they installed in the Netherlands in 99. Even though they are efficent, they still need fuel, while electrical power needs keep growing and growing.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 12:29:00 AM EDT
I don't know I dont think that looking to someone else again for oil is going to solve our problems (remember we did that already with the arabs) Instead of dumping money into looking for another country to supply us with oil I think we should be puting that money into anternative fuels projects and develop them so that they are more efficient. One Idea that has come to my mind Is using Straw to fuel powerplants althogh this may only work in the north west there are currently houndreds of thousands of tons of grass straw wasted each year by leaving it in the field or burning it. Alot of straw gets exported to Japan A little over 100 thousand tons currently i belive but there is still alot left here if I could be baled then Sent to a power pland and ground down I think it would be a coset effective way to produce power by useing a renuable product of little or no value. this colud be duplicated across the country useing other agriculteral waste I know Ineurope there are power plants that use Chicken shit to produce methane which is then used too produce power. Maby it colud be replicated here using waste from the huge pig operations in the midwest. Just an Idea
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 2:52:50 AM EDT
Excellent articles, [b]ArmdLbrl[/b], and Russia is not only a great source for future Non-OPEC oil supplies for the USA, it's also going to be one of our most natural allies in the brave new world. They view Islamic fundamentalism the same was we do! As a threat to [u]their[/u] civilization. I bet a lot of us view that video of the Russian soldier getting his throat cut at the hands of Chechnyan rebels in a whole lot different light since Sept 11! Eric The(ImagineIfThatWereAnAmericanSoldier!)Hun[>­]:)]
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 3:35:51 AM EDT
... As much as I like driving my gas guzzling SUV I can't help but realize just how supply & demand plays in this equation. We know that a lot of sheep are afraid to fly reducing consumption somewhat and a bunch of us have opted to drive the frugal little import over the big SUV since 9/11. So to me it sure seems that a little conservation dictates prices significantly. I know I'm sounding like a liberal here but hey, until alternative energy sources jump from the drawing board to the real world conservation is a viable option. ... One thing that sticks in my mind, is on those rare occasions that I venture into Phoenix during business hours seeing those packed four lane freeways with only one occupant per vehicle. Hardly no one uses the HOV lanes except truckloads of labors from Mexico working jobs that Americans won't do. ... Things that make you go humph?
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 4:42:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 6:37:32 AM EDT
Several Years ago two senators addressed the issue of building a pipeline from russia through afghanistan and into a port city. Which I didn't learn of until yesterday. Pretty interesting. And we could do it now. Benjamin
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 7:48:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 8:08:50 AM EDT
I can agree with this, I hope we strengthen our bond with Russia both politically and economically. I think Pres. Bush can be the right guy to do this, I think he & Russian Pres. V. Putin are two guys that can truly work together. Strengthening Russia's economy will do more than any 'loan' we give them. We've heard about the Russians 'giving' military equipment to the N. Alliance, I would bet that deal is partially being payed for by us (which I have no problem with). I'd much rather see us buy from Russia then from China, why should we bend over backwards for countries that despise us (that goes for France too). I also happen to believe that Iran is country we need to CAUTIOUSLY work on developing bonds with. Reports are continually coming out that the younger generation does not agree with the hardline anti-American views or politics of Ayatollah Khomeini & his government. With all that said, we still must expand our own oil production to better protect ourselves. There's a lot to discuss on this topic and it's hard to do it this way (by typing), I hope we can we find new alliances because I'm little tired of us having to pander to people who hate us.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 8:15:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By paterpk: Don't lock the rag heads out of the exchange... just give them good competition. When we choose only one supply we set ourselves up for a fall.
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Well said. BTW, isnt there some untapped resources still under US control??
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 8:28:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LtMac313: BTW, isnt there some untapped resources still under US control??
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Can't answer the above but we darn sure should've staked our name on several thousand acres of Iraq when we were over there!!!!!!! Kuwait should be giving us some too, we're the ones who capped all those blown oil wells (in record time I might add)!!!
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 9:42:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kevin: Kuwait should be giving us some too, we're the ones who capped all those blown oil wells (in record time I might add)!!!
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I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for it. Kuwait is slowly coming under the control of Islamic Fundamentalists, too. I heard of a poll that while 34% of Kuwaitis consider Bin Laden a terrorist, 42% consider him a freedom fighter.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 3:15:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LtMac313:
Originally Posted By paterpk: Don't lock the rag heads out of the exchange... just give them good competition. When we choose only one supply we set ourselves up for a fall.
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Well said. BTW, isnt there some untapped resources still under US control??
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Yes there are. And they should stay that way, untapped untill needed. Strategic reserve. When and if the rest of the world runs out of oil, we will be sitting pretty. If by some bizzare chance ALL oil producers turn against us, we will have a hedge against doomsday.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 4:45:04 PM EDT
Had a similar argument yesterday. Russia is not selling us oil to be our friend, they are selling us oil because they are broke and nead the money! They are being nice to us for the same reason everyone else in the world is...we pay them off. If I were going to buy something from the russians, it would be their plutonium which I would convert into MOX and burn in my nice new nuclear reactors that I would build on every square mile of Cali. Sorry for the rant.[soapbox]
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